I know it's important, but "just" how important are the Bvitamins for

redspy · 08-23-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

completely disagree with that "balanced diet" reasoning.

with the way we mass produce food and crop there is no way you can get adequate vitamins and minerals from diet alone, especially if you're athletic.

I'm caught in the middle of the arguments either way so I take a multi for 'insurance'.

LAM · 08-23-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

completely disagree with that "balanced diet" reasoning.

with the way we mass produce food and crop there is no way you can get adequate vitamins and minerals from diet alone, especially if you're athletic.

ditto...

tracking my diet on fitday.com several years ago provided me with all of the proof that a healthy diet is not sufficient for providing the neccessary vitamins and minerals to satisfy the RDA.

**Prince** · 08-23-2004, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

tracking my diet on fitday.com several years ago provided me with all of the proof that a healthy diet is not sufficient for providing the neccessary vitamins and minerals to satisfy the RDA.

not only that but the RDA is insufficuent for anyone that engages in any type of physical activity.

**Pirate!** · 08-23-2004, 05:21 PM

Well, the RDAs are determined based on everyone in the population, and despite what many believe they consider physically active people part of the population. I agree that it is hard to meet all the RDAs with food. That is why I take a multi-vitamin and suggest that others do the same. Contrary to popular belief, athletes tend to get more vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals from their diet in general (because they eat more) than do people who are not physically active. For that reason, athletes tend to have less deficiencies then sedentary people, irrespective of supplementation. Also contrary to popular belief, energy expenditure (or body size) is not directly correlated with vitamin and mineral needs. That is to say that a person who burns 5000 calories a day (or weighs 300 lbs) doesn't need twice as much as someone who burns 2500 calories a day (or weighs 150 lbs). There are opinions & there is science. The most extensive and up to date research is what the RDAs are based on. Everyone will always have their own opinions, even if it conflicts with science. Unfortunately, bodybuilder lore has a history of perpetuating many false truths that contradict science.

**Pirate!** · 08-23-2004, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

not only that but the RDA is insufficuent for anyone that engages in any type of physical activity.

I disagree, as does almost every dietitian in the civilized world.

**Prince** · 08-23-2004, 05:29 PM

the RDA's are based more on survival and disease prevention, not optimal health.

**Pirate!** · 08-23-2004, 05:36 PM

Untrue. "Current revisions maintain the original goal of protecting against nutrient deficiencies, but given the abundance of research now linking diet and health, that goal has been broadened to include supporting optimal activities within the body and preventing chronic diseases as well." (Understanding Nutrition. Whitney & Ross. 2002)
Official government site: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/etext/000105.html

Pepper · 08-23-2004, 05:53 PM

I don't think I have ever seen someone defend the RDA on this site before. Next someone will be defending the food pyramid..

LAM · 08-23-2004, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

I disagree, as does almost every dietitian in the civilized world.

95% of the dietitians I have seen are fat fucks...

Johnnny · 08-23-2004, 06:33 PM

Robert DiMaggio

Quote:

completely disagree with that "balanced diet" reasoning.

with the way we mass produce food and crop there is no way you can get adequate vitamins and minerals from diet alone, especially if you're athletic.

I agree with this statement. As I have a balanced diet of plennnnty of protein, fruits, vegatables, banannas & water & since I've started this B complex I feel much more energetic & stronger.

Which brings me to my next question. I'm beginning to think that a B vitamin complex along with food is very important for strength & muscle building/recovery.

Does anyone else feel this way about a b vitamin complex?

redspy · 08-23-2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

I'm beginning to think that a B vitamin complex along with food is very important for strength & muscle building/recovery.

Ya think?

Don't get too hung up on B complex, it's just a chemical catalyst like all other vitamins. Just maintain a balanced diet, add some basic supplementation and forget about it.

**Pirate!** · 08-23-2004, 07:44 PM

To each, his own. I will put my faith in scientific research over bodybuilder lore any day. Everyone should remember that RDAs are "recommended", not absolute values that apply to everyone's needs. I'm sure there are plenty of fat dietitians, just as there are doctors that drink and smoke. It doesn't mean that they don't know better. It is this idea that because some guy is ripped, everything he says about diet and exercise must be right that causes ignorance to perpetuate itself. People still believe in shit that has been passed down for decades in the gym despite truck loads of contradictory evidence. I don't want to "split hairs" with you guys. I appreciate the advice you have given me on this forum, and I hope that will continue. I feel obligated to other readers to let them know what the widely accepted truth is concerning RDAs. No study has ever conclusively shown there to be any performance benefit to taking extra vitamins when there is no pre-existing deficiency. But, a physically active person could benefit from higher levels of some vitamins than a sedentary; vitamin E being a good example. There are health benefits due to its role as an anti-oxidant in athletes. the RDAs are established with a "margin of safety" that takes into consideration the range of people's needs due to all known factors (including activity level). The more the merrier does not apply to vitamins, though. If your vitamin intake through food and supplements together is sufficient, there is no benefit to taking more. A B-Complex usually has way more than you need. B-Vitamins are as cheap as dirt, so they load them down. People see 1200% RDA and think there must be some extra benefit. There may be, but it has yet to be proved. In fact, there is more science that backs of the placebo effect.

LAM · 08-23-2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

To each, his own. I will put my faith in scientific research over bodybuilder lore any day. Everyone should remember that RDAs are "recommended", not absolute values that apply to everyone's needs. I'm sure there are plenty of fat dietitians, just as there are doctors that drink and smoke. It doesn't mean that they don't know better. It is this idea that because some guy is ripped, everything he says about diet and exercise must be right that causes ignorance to perpetuate itself. People still believe in shit that has been passed down for decades in the gym despite truck loads of contradictory evidence. I don't want to "split hairs" with you guys. I appreciate the advice you have given me on this forum, and I hope that will continue. I feel obligated to other readers to let them know what the widely accepted truth is concerning RDAs. No study has ever conclusively shown there to be any performance benefit to taking extra vitamins when there is no pre-existing deficiency. But, a physically active person could benefit from higher levels of some vitamins than a sedentary; vitamin E being a good example. There are health benefits due to its role as an anti-oxidant in athletes. the RDAs are established with a "margin of safety" that takes into consideration the range of people's needs due to all known factors (including activity level). The more the merrier does not apply to vitamins, though. If your vitamin intake through food and supplements together is sufficient, there is no benefit to taking more. A B-Complex usually has way more than you need. B-Vitamins are as cheap as dirt, so they load them down. People see 1200% RDA and think there must be some extra benefit. There may be, but it has yet to be proved. In fact, there is more science that backs of the placebo effect.

so by "your" logic and science a 100 lb woman who doesn't exercise needs only slightly lower amounts of vitamins and minerals as a 300 lb body builder ?

and where do you think the majority of bb info is dereived from ? current medical studies performed on athletes...

**Pirate!** · 08-23-2004, 08:06 PM

I was saying there is not a direct corelation. For example, a 300 lbs man doesn't have 3 times the vitamin needs of a 100 lb. man. The effectiveness of supplementation can be determined by scientific studies done on athletes or amateur studies done on athletes. You are right, most bb info comes from amateur studies (Frank says he gained 10 lbs by taking more B-vitamins).

Monolith · 08-23-2004, 09:30 PM

good antioxidant. take it post w/o w/ some nac.

Vieope · 08-23-2004, 09:33 PM

Vitamins are good for you, doesn´t matter why, so you should take them!

Johnnny · 08-23-2004, 11:26 PM

redspy

Quote:

Ya think?

Don't get too hung up on B complex, it's just a chemical catalyst like all other vitamins. Just maintain a balanced diet, add some basic supplementation and forget about it.

I feel much better since I've started up with my B complex.

Monolith

Yeah anti-oxidants are very good as well. CLA is a good one in fact.

LAM · 08-24-2004, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

You are right, most bb info comes from amateur studies (Frank says he gained 10 lbs by taking more B-vitamins).

your are 100% incorrect...

it is great that you are in school and a Nutrition major PirateFromHell but reading a couple of books does not automatically make you an expert in supplementation and human performance...you have a lot to learn about the nutritional needs of athletes esepecially those involved in bb'ing...

ClintZ28 · 08-24-2004, 11:18 AM

I agree with everything PirateHell has been saying. It is exactly the same stuff in my textbook. It may be the same one since we attend the same University! haha

**Prince** · 08-24-2004, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClintZ28

I agree with everything PirateHell has been saying. It is exactly the same stuff in my textbook.

and we all know that if it's in print it must be true.

Johnnny · 08-24-2004, 11:24 AM

Now don't get me wrong as I belief there are many important & well written books out there, but you can't always belief books especially university books.

The books we had in university were garbage.

The books that I believe in & trust more are books written by ppl themselves who've experienced everything first hand themselves in regards to training, dieting, steroids & supplements & all.

As you're dealing with ppl who have first hand knowledge.

Put it this way, I'd trust a book written by Robert DiMaggio or Arnold Schwarzenegger than by some scientist who's never lifted a barbell in his/her life or eaten a healthy meal in his/her life.

Would you trust 300lb scientist who's never worked out, dieted or ever lifted a barbell?

Certainly not.

ClintZ28 · 08-24-2004, 11:26 AM

Well, this was a pretty good debate.

Johnnny · 08-24-2004, 11:45 AM

Back to topic at hand I'm guessing that many of you feel that a B vitamin complex is very important in regards to muscle growth & strength?

LAM · 08-24-2004, 11:47 AM

it is definetly part of the puzzle...

Johnnny · 08-24-2004, 11:57 AM

LAM

Quote:

it is definetly part of the puzzle...

I'm guessing it's probably almost as important as protein is.

**Pirate!** · 08-24-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

your are 100% incorrect...

it is great that you are in school and a Nutrition major PirateFromHell but reading a couple of books does not automatically make you an expert in supplementation and human performance...you have a lot to learn about the nutritional needs of athletes esepecially those involved in bb'ing...

I totally agree. I look forward to learning more from school, my personal experiences, and the experiences others share with me.

redspy · 08-24-2004, 03:21 PM

08-23-2004, 05:29 PM	#36
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,926 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	the RDA's are based more on survival and disease prevention, not optimal health.
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08-23-2004, 05:53 PM	#38
Pepper Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,530	I don't think I have ever seen someone defend the RDA on this site before. Next someone will be defending the food pyramid..
	My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

08-23-2004, 09:30 PM	#45
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	good antioxidant. take it post w/o w/ some nac.
	http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

08-24-2004, 11:47 AM	#54
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	it is definetly part of the puzzle...
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

08-23-2004, 09:33 PM	#46
Vieope Monochromatic Bunny Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: drinking coffee.. Posts: 14,847 Photos: 10	Vitamins are good for you, doesn´t matter why, so you should take them!

08-24-2004, 11:18 AM	#49
ClintZ28 Cutting Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 117 Photos: 7	I agree with everything PirateHell has been saying. It is exactly the same stuff in my textbook. It may be the same one since we attend the same University! haha

08-24-2004, 11:24 AM	#51
Johnnny Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,844	Now don't get me wrong as I belief there are many important & well written books out there, but you can't always belief books especially university books. The books we had in university were garbage. The books that I believe in & trust more are books written by ppl themselves who've experienced everything first hand themselves in regards to training, dieting, steroids & supplements & all. As you're dealing with ppl who have first hand knowledge. Put it this way, I'd trust a book written by Robert DiMaggio or Arnold Schwarzenegger than by some scientist who's never lifted a barbell in his/her life or eaten a healthy meal in his/her life. Would you trust 300lb scientist who's never worked out, dieted or ever lifted a barbell? Certainly not.

08-24-2004, 11:26 AM	#52
ClintZ28 Cutting Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 117 Photos: 7	Well, this was a pretty good debate.

08-24-2004, 11:45 AM	#53
Johnnny Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,844	Back to topic at hand I'm guessing that many of you feel that a B vitamin complex is very important in regards to muscle growth & strength?

08-24-2004, 03:21 PM	#57
redspy Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,040	Qu