I apologize for another creatine thread

[dontsurfonmytur]

Ok, i've tried Mono apple juice in the past, and currently taking CEE 3g/2 times daily. Now I'm thinking about going back to regular mono, but mono HAS to be taken with some kind of juice right?? Also the water retention caused by mono, is it so great that someone that has skin tight abs, it can become a flabby 4 or 2 pack??

Also, if the mono has to be taken with juice, i will most likely get dicreatine malate. Anygody have success with dicreatine malate?

[nsimmons]

but mono HAS to be taken with some kind of juice right??

No, i drink nothing but water.

Also the water retention caused by mono, is it so great that someone that has skin tight abs, it can become a flabby 4 or 2 pack??

No the water is retained in the muscle, not under the skin.

[FrankT]

Ok, i've tried Mono apple juice in the past, and currently taking CEE 3g/2 times daily. Now I'm thinking about going back to regular mono, but mono HAS to be taken with some kind of juice right?? Also the water retention caused by mono, is it so great that someone that has skin tight abs, it can become a flabby 4 or 2 pack??

Also, if the mono has to be taken with juice, i will most likely get dicreatine malate. Anygody have success with dicreatine malate?

It does not have to be taken with "juice".

The reason this is advocated is because juice is high in sugar.
When you take in copious amounts of sugar, it spikes your insulin.
Which causes creatine to be absorbed much quicker/better.

[Pirate!]

Why go back to mono? CEE blows it out of the water. You don't need to take mono with juice.

[MCPaulyB]

Why is CEE better than Mono?

[juggernaut]

if youre coming off an "on" cycle, mono is actually better used, because of the excess water weight that mono holds onto. Now whether this is fact or fallacy(whether its okay to use mono as opposed to CEE which I was always use), I dunno, but I am going to try it after my cycle of promagnon/trenx is over along with 6oxo and anabolic matrix.

[Trouble]

CEE supposedly doesn't require active transport (via an ATP activated channel and creatine transporter). However, it can bind to nuclear receptors and induce the release of creatine transport proteins, facilitating transport in the absence of glucose. Ahhh.

Creatine mono requires energy for membrane translocation into cells. That energy comes from glucose. If you have good glucose tolerance. Hunkey dorey. Creatine goes in, water comes out along with ions, via separate channels called aquaporins. This avoids overpressuring cells. Over pressured (ion dense cells) do not store either creatine nor glycogen efficiently.

Don't have good glucose tolerance? Glucose leaches in, not via normal glucose transporters. When glucose leaches in, the osmolarity of cells increases. Water is moved into the cells. However, water and ions aren't transported out efficiently (poor insulin sensitivity = low aquaporin activity).

Creatine is not effectively taken in. You have poor ability to pump ions from metabolism out of these cells it must leach out slowly. Meanwhile, energy storage post workout sucks wind. Energy production for replenishing used energy stores is limited to fatty acid metaoblism. In the glucose intolerant, this is a shitty, low energy production state.

Make sense why CEE might be a better idea than creatine monohydrate?

[Pirate!]

That's very insightful, Trouble. I hadn't considered the issue of osmolality, nor did I realize that CEE would activate nuclear receptors to create new creatine transport proteins.

[juggernaut]

CEE supposedly doesn't require active transport (via an ATP activated channel and creatine transporter). However, it can bind to nuclear receptors and induce the release of creatine transport proteins, facilitating transport in the absence of glucose. Ahhh.

Creatine mono requires energy for membrane translocation into cells. That energy comes from glucose. If you have good glucose tolerance. Hunkey dorey. Creatine goes in, water comes out along with ions, via separate channels called aquaporins. This avoids overpressuring cells. Over pressured (ion dense cells) do not store either creatine nor glycogen efficiently.

Don't have good glucose tolerance? Glucose leaches in, not via normal glucose transporters. When glucose leaches in, the osmolarity of cells increases. Water is moved into the cells. However, water and ions aren't transported out efficiently (poor insulin sensitivity = low aquaporin activity).

Creatine is not effectively taken in. You have poor ability to pump ions from metabolism out of these cells it must leach out slowly. Meanwhile, energy storage post workout sucks wind. Energy production for replenishing used energy stores is limited to fatty acid metaoblism. In the glucose intolerant, this is a shitty, low energy production state.

Make sense why CEE might be a better idea than creatine monohydrate?

okay, one more time for those of us who DIDNT take a physiology course? Please?

[juggernaut]

CEE supposedly doesn't require active transport (via an ATP activated channel and creatine transporter). However, it can bind to nuclear receptors and induce the release of creatine transport proteins, facilitating transport in the absence of glucose. Ahhh.

Creatine mono requires energy for membrane translocation into cells. That energy comes from glucose. If you have good glucose tolerance. Hunkey dorey. Creatine goes in, water comes out along with ions, via separate channels called aquaporins. This avoids overpressuring cells. Over pressured (ion dense cells) do not store either creatine nor glycogen efficiently.

Don't have good glucose tolerance? Glucose leaches in, not via normal glucose transporters. When glucose leaches in, the osmolarity of cells increases. Water is moved into the cells. However, water and ions aren't transported out efficiently (poor insulin sensitivity = low aquaporin activity).

Creatine is not effectively taken in. You have poor ability to pump ions from metabolism out of these cells it must leach out slowly. Meanwhile, energy storage post workout sucks wind. Energy production for replenishing used energy stores is limited to fatty acid metaoblism. In the glucose intolerant, this is a shitty, low energy production state.

Make sense why CEE might be a better idea than creatine monohydrate?

ok, if I am looking at this correctly, youre saying that if we are glucose "tolerant" then we are able to absorb the mono/glucose without a problem; if we are carb sensitive (like me) then youre saying we will not absorb mono efficiently and products with such simple sugars as dextrose or maltodextrin will ultimately wind up as fat, with little to no absorption of creatine/glucose...right? I need an aspirin.

[BigPapaPump68]

Great read trouble!

[Trouble]

ok, if I am looking at this correctly, youre saying that if we are glucose "tolerant" then we are able to absorb the mono/glucose without a problem; if we are carb sensitive (like me) then youre saying we will not absorb mono efficiently and products with such simple sugars as dextrose or maltodextrin will ultimately wind up as fat, with little to no absorption of creatine/glucose...right? I need an aspirin.

Yes sir. One other problem often gets in the way of creatine supplement effectiveness: insufficient NAC within muscle cells.

NAC is necessary to absorb the protons produced by metabolizing creatine for energy (ATP) release.

I first read about this requirement about year and a half ago, and posted a long dry boring thread on it at Mind and Muscle. Which promptly disappeared during repeated server crashes.

A curious paper appeared in the biomedical journals in 2002, in a sports physiology publication. The authors reported that use of creatine during nonexertion periods actually caused users to store fat. It made no sense. I followed up on this paper and did some digging. One of the authors, an astute senior scientist of some repute, wrote a review article about 2 yrs later, in 2004. He described the stepwise reactions and the involvement of NAC in the maintenance of cell ion charge during creatine use for energy release in muscle.

At about this same time, a little more evidence on how CEE might work in cells (as opposed to creatine HCl monohydrate) was published in a series of papers (2005).

Very cool shit. So I began to recommend that creatine users who had not responded to creatine MH in the past, try slow loading with CEE, and to also begin using low dose NAC. At the same time, they were recommended to adopt a low carb diet using slow release carbs only, and to begin daily cardio conditioning (regular walking, 2x day, 20-30 min, with measured (belly) breathing.

The results of improved muscle fullness and energy during workouts, reduced periods of hypoglycemia post workout, better mental focus, mood, etc. seems to support this notion - that CEE can induce / repair impaired creatine function in cells, that pH from creatine metabolism is indeed NAC dependent, and that proper water flow (preventing bloat) in and out of cells was possible using this approach.

I was a CMH non responder. I found that CEE works. It works better in the presence of NAC (when NAC is used regularly as a supplement - DO NOT TAKE JUST BEFORE A WORKOUT! - DO NOT TAKE JUST AFTER A WORKOUT - use NAC at least one hour before exertion.

I also found it prudent to slow load CEE throughout the day. Small doses are sufficient. Large doses are a waste - you can only absorb and use so much. 1-2 gram doses are fine for body weights up to say, 225.

Does this make sense?

I believe much of the controversy behind creatine efficiency rests on both glucose tolerance and also glutathione/NAC pH control status (we call this reducing equivalent status) in cells.

Yes, its a pain in the ass to read these long posts. At least you don't have to type them.

[Trouble]

Note that this is only the third time I have posted the tedious observations/facts behind creatine supplement action - CEE vs CMH..

On any forum.

[juggernaut]

so youre saying that I shouldnt worry about using mono after a ph cycle? That I should continue to use CEE, but to also supplement it with NAC? What does NAC do? Dummies version only please...

[Trouble]

I suggest using CEE on- and off-cycle (not CMH). NAC is a chemical mop, removing hydrogen ions (acid), keeps pH neutral, energy flowing properly.

[juggernaut]

interesting stuff, trouble. Got anything on how to take care of the gains after a a PH cycle? you know, diet, nutrition and training after the actual on cycle?

[Trouble]

Need to continue to eat / train big. Worst issue is cortisol jump from heavy training. Phosphatidylserine, ALCAR, HMB seem to be good at opposing it. AAS temporarily damps cortisol action (a glucocorticoid) at the GR receptor, but it comes back hard post cycle, when gains are lost in those sensitive to cortisol (which causes nitrogen cycling problems in liver - HMB helps spare nitrogen, stops protein wasting).

Eat lean, no more than 20% fat, eat slower release carb, avoid using simple glucose in shakes - add slower release carbs that also slow transit time thru gut, improves guts absorption of energy and nutrients.

Always train using conditioning cardio - daily. Simple moderate paced walks with carefully regulated breathing works wonders for maintaining insulin control, normalizes sleep patterns, reduces cortisol, moderates anxiety and aggression (aggression outside of the gym is stupid, it causes more damage than is understood - shortens life). My guys walk at least once daily, some with loaded packs for general conditioning, half hour. Again, walks at evening, this time with no weighted pack, just for breathing and brainwave regulation. Puts brains into alpha state = growth hormone releasing at night.

Use heavier conditioning methods (sled pulling) to keep muscles conditioned - this one item, alone, will do more for maintaining muscle gains than any supplement.