HMB and arginine

littlebit · 09-08-2006, 06:16 PM

I've been reading up on HMB and arginine. I read in one of the latest body building mags that begining lifters should use those suppliments along with whey protein and a multivitimin. Any advice?? Anyone try it??

**Prince** · 09-08-2006, 07:52 PM

HMB = waste of money
L-Arginine = worth while supplement, although I recommend A-AKG.

Nitro4

Trouble · 09-08-2006, 08:39 PM

I second arginine AKG (or orthinine-AKG). Both appear to signficantly enhance gut lining repair and maintenance, one of the keys to good gut function and efficient nutrient absorption.

Politely disagree on the HMB recommendation. HMB is the first step in leucine metabolism Its known to play a role in protein synthesis signalling, in repair and recovery post workout, and in the transport of fatty acids into mitochrondria.

Its should be taken with food, in a preworkout or post workout shake. Along with it, I would use Cissus quadrangularis and Cordyceps, about a 1/4 teaspoon of each. Add cinammon to help with glucose utilization as well.

**Prince** · 09-08-2006, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouble

Politely disagree on the HMB recommendation. HMB is the first step in leucine metabolism Its known to play a role in protein synthesis signalling, in repair and recovery post workout, and in the transport of fatty acids into mitochrondria.

I should have worded that: "HMB = not cost effective".

**Pirate!** · 09-08-2006, 10:43 PM

HMB is the worst tasting stuff I've intentionally repeatedly ingested. If someone would make it in bulk caps at a good price, it would be a worthy supplement.

Ahhh, leucine. If people fully understood the significance of this amino acid. I think the complete lack of glucogenic properties set it apart from the other BCAAs. It seems like there is has been a serious lack of anecdotal evidence to support the claims of HMB in humans.

Trouble · 09-09-2006, 02:50 PM

Pirate: have you bothered to search PubMed? Hmmm?

I agree on the taste. Its why I add mine to my whey shakes.

DirtyWhiteBoy · 09-09-2006, 03:22 PM

HMB has been on the market for 10 years. Sounds good on paper, but have yet to actually meet anyone who uses HMB as a stand alone/ regular basis due to whatever claims it has.

Bill Phillips was really excited about HMB back in the day. His company (EAS) sold this product and the recommended dose may have been too small.

I'm really surprised HMB is still around.

Trouble · 09-09-2006, 04:08 PM

There have been many studies on the effects of HMB in recent years (late 90s thru present). Many studies are run for too short a duration, and most investigators look for the wrong effects or seek large scale ergogenic effects similar to AAS (eg., they are looking for AAS replacements). Wrong fucking mentality, plus many *obviously* do not think about energetics effects, beyond creatine and protein synthesis signalling.

Largest impacts on exertion physiology:

nice slow gains in lean body mass over time, with concurrent loss of fat mass

supresses cortisol production during intense training

reduces creatinephosphokinase (a measure of DOMS)

Best effects were noted with it was cosupplemented with creatine MH.

I saw best effects personally and in athletes I have worked with, when it was cosupplemented with magnesium citrate and CEE.

Don't think it works?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10978853

Look at my gallery photos. I don't use gear. I use brainpower (professional knowledge) - I increased the ratio of hypertrophic fibers in muscle using diet, heavy resistance training, and supplements that promoted cortisol suppression and glucose tolerance improvements to manipulate androgen receptor density.

For those who might not know, I'm in my late 40s and have had a long history of reactive hypoglycemia, a condition known to be highly catabolic.

Thus, the gains in lean muscle are beyond that normally seen in your average 25 yr old with comparable muscle mass.

Don't want to believe in HMB. Fine. Billy Phillips made a fucking fortune with his BFL program and EAS supplements, all the while, naysayers on these forums said, so what?

**Pirate!** · 09-09-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouble

Pirate: have you bothered to search PubMed? Hmmm?

I haven't searched PubMed for HMB studies, but I will now.

How much do you use, Trouble?

Moderator's reply to query: 1-2 grams per serving.

VMSEddieF · 09-09-2006, 06:19 PM

HMB, Arginine, Glutamine and (dammit) aspertame is in Juven packets i had scribed to me once by doctor for general health, nutrition boost.

Did it help? I guess so. Not much, maybe a little. I stopped taking them till i research more how they (if they do) increase glutamate which may not be good for one like myself.

Guy i get med supplies from was talking HMB. Hes in good shape.

Trouble · 09-09-2006, 09:08 PM

Dear FastEddie,

You might want to rethink HMB (not sure how your kidneys do with creatine). Its hot shit in the biomedical lit. Just the thing for muscle wasting diseases.

Affectionately,

S

PS: You might find this interesting reading.

Nutrition modulation of cachexia/proteolysis. Siddiqui R, Pandya D, Harvey K, and GP Zaloga. Methodist Research Institute, Indianapolis. Nutr Clin Pract. April 2006 21(2):155-67.

Cachexia represents progressive wasting of muscle and adipose tissue and is associated with increased morbidity and mortality. Although anorexia usually accompanies cachexia, cachexia rarely responds to increased food intake alone. Our knowledge of the underlying mechanisms responsible for cachexia remains incomplete. However, most states of cachexia are associated with underlying inflammatory processes and/or cancer. These processes activate protein degradation and lipolytic pathways, resulting in tissue loss. In this article, we briefly review the pathophysiology of cachexia and discuss the role of specific nutrient supplements for the treatment of cachexia. The branched chain amino acid leucine, the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxymethylbutyrate, arginine, glutamine, omega-3 long chain fatty acids, conjugated linoleic acid, and polyphenols have demonstrated some efficacy in animal and/or human studies. Optimal treatment for cachexia is likely aimed at maximizing muscle and adipose synthesis while minimizing degradation.

The ubiquitin-proteasome pathway as a therapeutic target for muscle wasting. Tisdale MJ. Cancer Biochemistry at the Pharmaceutical Sciences Research Institute, Aston University, Birmingham, UK. J Support Oncol. 2005 3(3):209-17.

Atrophy of skeletal muscle is common to a number of conditions, including cancer, sepsis, AIDS, renal failure, diabetes, severe trauma, and burns. In all cases, protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is depressed, whereas protein degradation is increased through an increase in activity and expression of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway. This pathway is not responsive to simple nutritional intervention.

Certain agents, including glucocorticoids, cytokines, proteolysis-inducing factor (PIF), and oxidative stress, are thought to be responsible for the induction of the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway in skeletal muscle in catabolic conditions. Insulin suppresses activation of this pathway, and loss of insulin action in diabetes leads to muscle wasting. Cytokines, PIF, and reactive oxygen species (ROS) are thought to induce proteasome expression through activation of the transcription factor nuclear factor kappa B (NF-kappaB). Targets for therapeutic intervention include antagonists of the inducers of proteasome expression, intracellular signaling pathways leading to activation of NF-kappaB, and the enzymes inducing ubiquitin conjugation to the substrate protein (myosin), as well as the proteasome itself. Anticytokine and anti-PIF antibodies are effective in attenuating muscle protein degradation in certain experimental animal models,and glucocorticoid receptor antagonists are effective in the treatment of sepsis. Agents that inhibit NF-kappaB activation, such as resveratrol, thalidomide, ibuprofen, eicosapentaenoic acid, and beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate, are effective in the preservation of skeletal muscle mass in cachexia.These results suggest that the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway is an appropriate therapeutic target to prevent muscle wasting.

VMSEddieF · 09-10-2006, 02:31 PM

heh..what would this place do without Trouble

I will do some research on HMB. I did say i think it helped a little though it was combined with about 5g of Arginine and 5g of Glutamine so not sure which did what.

Interesting the part about about muscle wasting. Theres so much to know about the body.

Trouble · 09-10-2006, 04:03 PM

Most people have enough stomach acid to immedately oxidize glutamine in the stomach. Once oxidized, its benefit is lost (and negatives accrue). If it can be delivered to the upper gut, and there isn't excess acid present, ok, it has some benefit. For most users, this isn't the case. Therefore, arginine- or orthinine AKG has been found (in numnerous medical studies, many very recent) to be a superior gut health promoter. Gut health largely controls immune response and recovery, macronutrient digestion, micronutrient/ion transport, and various biological changes in precursor nutrients necessary for their utilization in various tissues.

Orthinine-AKG has been found to be *very useful* for preventing muscle wasting and promoting connective tissue maintenance and regeneration (as has glucosamine HCl). You *want* to boost glutathione and GABA production, FastEddie. You get that from vegetables, grains, and whey/egg/vegetable proteins. These related compounds (glutamine from protein sources, GABA and glutathione) will help you deal effectively with your health issues.

Thank-you for the shoutout.

09-08-2006, 06:16 PM	#1
littlebit littlebit Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 17 Blog Entries: 1	HMB and arginine I've been reading up on HMB and arginine. I read in one of the latest body building mags that begining lifters should use those suppliments along with whey protein and a multivitimin. Any advice?? Anyone try it??

09-08-2006, 07:52 PM	#2
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 34,003 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	HMB = waste of money L-Arginine = worth while supplement, although I recommend A-AKG. Nitro4
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

09-09-2006, 09:08 PM	#11
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	Dear FastEddie, You might want to rethink HMB (not sure how your kidneys do with creatine). Its hot shit in the biomedical lit. Just the thing for muscle wasting diseases. Affectionately, S PS: You might find this interesting reading. Nutrition modulation of cachexia/proteolysis. Siddiqui R, Pandya D, Harvey K, and GP Zaloga. Methodist Research Institute, Indianapolis. Nutr Clin Pract. April 2006 21(2):155-67. Cachexia represents progressive wasting of muscle and adipose tissue and is associated with increased morbidity and mortality. Although anorexia usually accompanies cachexia, cachexia rarely responds to increased food intake alone. Our knowledge of the underlying mechanisms responsible for cachexia remains incomplete. However, most states of cachexia are associated with underlying inflammatory processes and/or cancer. These processes activate protein degradation and lipolytic pathways, resulting in tissue loss. In this article, we briefly review the pathophysiology of cachexia and discuss the role of specific nutrient supplements for the treatment of cachexia. The branched chain amino acid leucine, the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxymethylbutyrate, arginine, glutamine, omega-3 long chain fatty acids, conjugated linoleic acid, and polyphenols have demonstrated some efficacy in animal and/or human studies. Optimal treatment for cachexia is likely aimed at maximizing muscle and adipose synthesis while minimizing degradation. The ubiquitin-proteasome pathway as a therapeutic target for muscle wasting. Tisdale MJ. Cancer Biochemistry at the Pharmaceutical Sciences Research Institute, Aston University, Birmingham, UK. J Support Oncol. 2005 3(3):209-17. Atrophy of skeletal muscle is common to a number of conditions, including cancer, sepsis, AIDS, renal failure, diabetes, severe trauma, and burns. In all cases, protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is depressed, whereas protein degradation is increased through an increase in activity and expression of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway. This pathway is not responsive to simple nutritional intervention. Certain agents, including glucocorticoids, cytokines, proteolysis-inducing factor (PIF), and oxidative stress, are thought to be responsible for the induction of the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway in skeletal muscle in catabolic conditions. Insulin suppresses activation of this pathway, and loss of insulin action in diabetes leads to muscle wasting. Cytokines, PIF, and reactive oxygen species (ROS) are thought to induce proteasome expression through activation of the transcription factor nuclear factor kappa B (NF-kappaB). Targets for therapeutic intervention include antagonists of the inducers of proteasome expression, intracellular signaling pathways leading to activation of NF-kappaB, and the enzymes inducing ubiquitin conjugation to the substrate protein (myosin), as well as the proteasome itself. Anticytokine and anti-PIF antibodies are effective in attenuating muscle protein degradation in certain experimental animal models,and glucocorticoid receptor antagonists are effective in the treatment of sepsis. Agents that inhibit NF-kappaB activation, such as resveratrol, thalidomide, ibuprofen, eicosapentaenoic acid, and beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate, are effective in the preservation of skeletal muscle mass in cachexia.These results suggest that the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway is an appropriate therapeutic target to prevent muscle wasting. Last edited by Trouble : 09-09-2006 at 09:36 PM.

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09-08-2006, 08:39 PM	#3
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	I second arginine AKG (or orthinine-AKG). Both appear to signficantly enhance gut lining repair and maintenance, one of the keys to good gut function and efficient nutrient absorption. Politely disagree on the HMB recommendation. HMB is the first step in leucine metabolism Its known to play a role in protein synthesis signalling, in repair and recovery post workout, and in the transport of fatty acids into mitochrondria. Its should be taken with food, in a preworkout or post workout shake. Along with it, I would use Cissus quadrangularis and Cordyceps, about a 1/4 teaspoon of each. Add cinammon to help with glucose utilization as well.

09-08-2006, 10:43 PM	#5
Pirate! Gatekepper Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 5,774	HMB is the worst tasting stuff I've intentionally repeatedly ingested. If someone would make it in bulk caps at a good price, it would be a worthy supplement. Ahhh, leucine. If people fully understood the significance of this amino acid. I think the complete lack of glucogenic properties set it apart from the other BCAAs. It seems like there is has been a serious lack of anecdotal evidence to support the claims of HMB in humans.

09-09-2006, 02:50 PM	#6
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	Pirate: have you bothered to search PubMed? Hmmm? I agree on the taste. Its why I add mine to my whey shakes.

09-09-2006, 03:22 PM	#7
DirtyWhiteBoy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 34	HMB has been on the market for 10 years. Sounds good on paper, but have yet to actually meet anyone who uses HMB as a stand alone/ regular basis due to whatever claims it has. Bill Phillips was really excited about HMB back in the day. His company (EAS) sold this product and the recommended dose may have been too small. I'm really surprised HMB is still around.

09-09-2006, 04:08 PM	#8
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	There have been many studies on the effects of HMB in recent years (late 90s thru present). Many studies are run for too short a duration, and most investigators look for the wrong effects or seek large scale ergogenic effects similar to AAS (eg., they are looking for AAS replacements). Wrong fucking mentality, plus many obviously do not think about energetics effects, beyond creatine and protein synthesis signalling. Largest impacts on exertion physiology: nice slow gains in lean body mass over time, with concurrent loss of fat mass supresses cortisol production during intense training reduces creatinephosphokinase (a measure of DOMS) Best effects were noted with it was cosupplemented with creatine MH. I saw best effects personally and in athletes I have worked with, when it was cosupplemented with magnesium citrate and CEE. Don't think it works? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=10978853 Look at my gallery photos. I don't use gear. I use brainpower (professional knowledge) - I increased the ratio of hypertrophic fibers in muscle using diet, heavy resistance training, and supplements that promoted cortisol suppression and glucose tolerance improvements to manipulate androgen receptor density. For those who might not know, I'm in my late 40s and have had a long history of reactive hypoglycemia, a condition known to be highly catabolic. Thus, the gains in lean muscle are beyond that normally seen in your average 25 yr old with comparable muscle mass. Don't want to believe in HMB. Fine. Billy Phillips made a fucking fortune with his BFL program and EAS supplements, all the while, naysayers on these forums said, so what?

09-09-2006, 06:19 PM	#10
VMSEddieF Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 88	HMB, Arginine, Glutamine and (dammit) aspertame is in Juven packets i had scribed to me once by doctor for general health, nutrition boost. Did it help? I guess so. Not much, maybe a little. I stopped taking them till i research more how they (if they do) increase glutamate which may not be good for one like myself. Guy i get med supplies from was talking HMB. Hes in good shape.

09-10-2006, 02:31 PM	#12
VMSEddieF Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 88	heh..what would this place do without Trouble I will do some research on HMB. I did say i think it helped a little though it was combined with about 5g of Arginine and 5g of Glutamine so not sure which did what. Interesting the part about about muscle wasting. Theres so much to know about the body.

09-10-2006, 04:03 PM	#13
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	Most people have enough stomach acid to immedately oxidize glutamine in the stomach. Once oxidized, its benefit is lost (and negatives accrue). If it can be delivered to the upper gut, and there isn't excess acid present, ok, it has some benefit. For most users, this isn't the case. Therefore, arginine- or orthinine AKG has been found (in numnerous medical studies, many very recent) to be a superior gut health promoter. Gut health largely controls immune response and recovery, macronutrient digestion, micronutrient/ion transport, and various biological changes in precursor nutrients necessary for their utilization in various tissues. Orthinine-AKG has been found to be very useful for preventing muscle wasting and promoting connective tissue maintenance and regeneration (as has glucosamine HCl). You want to boost glutathione and GABA production, FastEddie. You get that from vegetables, grains, and whey/egg/vegetable proteins. These related compounds (glutamine from protein sources, GABA and glutathione) will help you deal effectively with your health issues. Thank-you for the shoutout.