The Definitive Pre, During, and Post Workout Nutrition Discussion Thread

[ZECH]

Good discussion so far.............

I think we need to primarily concentrate on Physique/strength training. We have very few people that are into endurance sports. This is a BB forum and I think that strength training goes in hand with BB(type I and II) if you want to get stronger/bigger. Do we have any pure PL's here?? I don't think we do?
I also think we need to hit more on glucose tolerance/performance and cardiovascular issues.

[Dale Mabry]

Here is a link discussing the muscle building properties of nutrient timing...

http://69.94.64.50/poweringmuscles.c...article_id=105

[Twin Peak]

Good discussion so far.............

I think we need to primarily concentrate on Physique/strength training. We have very few people that are into endurance sports. This is a BB forum and I think that strength training goes in hand with BB(type I and II) if you want to get stronger/bigger. Do we have any pure PL's here?? I don't think we do?
I also think we need to hit more on glucose tolerance/performance and cardiovascular issues.

Way to kill the thread.

[emitecaps]

Perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of cortisol helped kill the thread. Seems like trouble lost interest thereafter. I would still liek to know her views even if others don't.

I'm wondering what carb and protein sources she recommends for pre during and post workout. Timing too. Any protocol recommended for a ecto or meso lifting in the morning, say an hour after waking up.

[ZECH]

Way to kill the thread.

How so?

[tucker01]

some more

Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.

Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.

School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia, sbird @ csu.edu.au.

This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.

and

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects

René Koopman,1 Anton J. M. Wagenmakers,4 Ralph J. F. Manders,1 Antoine H. G. Zorenc,1 Joan M. G. Senden,1 Marchel Gorselink,3 Hans A. Keizer,2 and Luc J. C. van Loon1,2 Departments of 1Human Biology and 2Movement Sciences, Nutrition Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; 3Numico Research BV, Wageningen, The Netherlands; and 4School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, United Kingdom
Submitted 1 September 2004 ; accepted in final form 22 November 2004

The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 ± 19% and +77 ± 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 ± 0.006 vs. 0.061 ± 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 ± 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

[tucker01]

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 Aug;97(6):664-72. Epub 2005 Oct 29.

Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance.

Crowe MJ, Weatherson JN,Bowden BF.

Institute of Sport and Exercise Science, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, Australia. Melissa.Crowe @ jcu.edu.au

Branched chain amino acids (BCAA), particularly leucine, have been suggested to be ergogenic for both endurance and strength/power performance. This study investigated the effects of dietary leucine supplementation on the exercise performance of outrigger canoeists. Thirteen (ten female, three male) competitive outrigger canoeists [aged 31.6 (2.2) year, VO(2max) 47.1 (2.0) ml kg(-1) min(-1)] underwent testing before and after 6-week supplementation with either capsulated L: -leucine (45 mg kg(-1) d(-1); n = 6) or placebo (cornflour; n = 7). Testing included anthropometry, 10 s upper body power and work and a row to exhaustion at 70-75% maximal aerobic power where perceived exertion (RPE), heart rate (HR) and plasma BCAA and tryptophan concentrations were assessed. Leucine supplementation resulted in significant increases in plasma leucine and total BCAA concentrations. Upper body power and work significantly increased in both groups after supplementation but power was significantly greater after leucine supplementation compared to the placebo [6.7 (0.7) v. 6.0 (0.7) W kg(-1)]. Rowing time significantly increased [77.6 (6.3)-88.3 (7.3) min] and average RPE significantly decreased [14.5 (1.5)-12.9 (1.4)] with leucine supplementation while these variables were unchanged with the placebo. Leucine supplementation had no effect on the plasma tryptophan to BCAA ratio, HR or anthropometric variables. Six weeks' dietary leucine supplementation significantly improved endurance performance and upper body power in outrigger canoeists without significant change in the plasma ratio of tryptophan to BCAA.
PMID: 16265600 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

.

[cman]

Yes sir, I did try them. What I found was: they were unable to stave off hypoglycemia during hour long workouts. They caused gut upset because of the their action in situ, in the absence of gut buffering (and gut dumping inhibiting fats and fiber). In essence, about 20% of these EAAs are known to bind to key receptors in stomach and ileum that cause both acid and bile acid dumping. That sir, worsens gastric reflux disease.

But more importantly, some of these amino acids have secondary roles as neurotransmitters - alanine, glycine, and histidine, as well as glutamine and arginine, come to mind. These amino acids, Steve, are not typical to natural dietary habits. In the mesomorph, they are not problematic and elicit the type response you affirm as desirable.

However, in the ecto- and endomorph, they elicit a very different, and undesirable CNS response.

In the endomorph, a release of excess insulin from pancreas, and of excess triglycerides from liver. With that CNS hit and insulin excess, any glucose that is present as simple carbs has a disasterous effect on rebound hyperglycmia and then, within a period of an hour or so, a plunge below baseline plasma glucose to hypoglycemia. This is precisely the condition that has been reported on several forums (you may recall Prolangtums thread back on M2) when energy drinks with this mixture of aminos and simple glucose where consumed pre workout.

In the ectomorph, an excess flush of acids and without the benefit of food to buffer it, a concommitant release of bile acids as well. These are emitted through the action of beta-adrenergic receptors. The ectomorph has exceptional sensitivity to CNS stimulation and impaired uptake (leaky gut syndrome) of nutrients. While he enjoys full utilization of glucose, normal muscosal cell transport of aminos and glucose does not occur because this type tends to have food move a bit too smartly through the intestinal track.

Both the endo- and ectomorph will suffer frome excess muscle proteolysis to meet energy demands during a longer workout. Both may suffer from low energy status as a result of your suggested pre-workout supplement recommendation.

For the mesomorph, I concur, your approach is sensible, Steve. Problem is, the mesomorph does not predominate as the archetype somatype on this and many other forums.

Alot of that went over my head. But, I would like your help in this area. If I start a new thread will you help me work thru some things. I recently started a somewhat mild cycle and have noticed my blood sugar goes low at work now if I drink coffee. not sure what is going on with that. also O have heard so many different things on this subject I am getting confused.

[Little Wing]

probably more than 90% of this thread is over my head. the last of my excess fat is melting away and i want to try some supplements. i have no idea where to start. my workouts are not perfect but my body is staying sore enough so i know my efforts are being rewarded. arms, butt, thighs, calves getting harder. i want to feed my body not fuck with it if that makes sense. where should i start? which products do you feel are essential?

[P-funk]

probably more than 90% of this thread is over my head. the last of my excess fat is melting away and i want to try some supplements. i have no idea where to start. my workouts are not perfect but my body is staying sore enough so i know my efforts are being rewarded. arms, butt, thighs, calves getting harder. i want to feed my body not fuck with it if that makes sense. where should i start? which products do you feel are essential?

1) soreness is not the best indicator of a workout. Also, the contiuned trauma might be a sign that your body needs a back off week to enhance recovery and allow new levels of fitness to manifest themself.

2) I think you should start with just some whey protein and a slower digesting carbohydrate (like oatmeal). What are you currently eating post workout?

[Little Wing]

i'm not really sore i just feel the parts of my body i'm calling on to do the workouts. don't know how to describe it.

after a work out i usually eat... nothing. i drink diluted juice and wonder what my body can do with the workout when i don't eat red meat.

i eat oatmeal daily with fruit and splash of cream for fat. beans, some cheese, tons of egg whites, chicken, fish, brown rice and sweet potato but quite frankly i'm curious about the idea of whey protein and such because i end up feeling too full trying to get everything i need with food and once my fat is gone i'm going to be a beanpole if i can't eat enough.

[P-funk]

diluted juice? You need to get some protein in and drop the juice in favor of some sort of slower digesting carbohydrate.

[Little Wing]

yea i'm looking at the different types of whey now. i know some flavors people end up hating so i'll order two flavors to start. all the whey woman sounds good. thanks. time to get my books back out. is Will Brink a good guy to listen to?

[Little Wing]

thanks.

[Twin Peak]

Perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of cortisol helped kill the thread. Seems like trouble lost interest thereafter. I would still liek to know her views even if others don't.

I'm wondering what carb and protein sources she recommends for pre during and post workout. Timing too. Any protocol recommended for a ecto or meso lifting in the morning, say an hour after waking up.

And did you register her just to say that? Cool! My "refusal"? LOL, you are a funny person. Now grow up.

====================

DG -- I was kidding man.

[emitecaps]

You didn't want to discuss how cortisol levels factored in for whatever reason. I think it's an important aspect to take into consideration but perhaps through supplementation cortisol levels aren't an issue for you. You blamed someone for killing the thread so I did the same. Should've used smilies I guess. But no hard feelings.

[Twin Peak]

You didn't want to discuss how cortisol levels factored in for whatever reason. I think it's an important aspect to take into consideration but perhaps through supplementation cortisol levels aren't an issue for you. You blamed someone for killing the thread so I did the same. Should've used smilies I guess. But no hard feelings.

I suppose if I wanted to kill the thread, that's okay -- its my thread.

And I only took umbrage with the concept that I "refused" to discuss something. That is just silly. Mostly, I was giving DG shit, because in fact the conversation was moving along swimmingly until he tried to play director.

Anyway, I don't even remember what was being discussed about cortisol, lets just say that I personally do not believe cortisol to be an important factor worth worrying about due to training. Which is probably why I "refused" to address it.

[ZECH]

I suppose if I wanted to kill the thread, that's okay -- its my thread.

And I only took umbrage with the concept that I "refused" to discuss something. That is just silly. Mostly, I was giving DG shit, because in fact the conversation was moving along swimmingly until he tried to play director.

Anyway, I don't even remember what was being discussed about cortisol, lets just say that I personally do not believe cortisol to be an important factor worth worrying about due to training. Which is probably why I "refused" to address it.

I only thought the thread was going into too many directions to stay on focus. Carry on........

[Gordo]

I don't think this one was posted yet:

doi: 10.1519/R-17695.1
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 20, No. 3, pp. 643–653.

The Effects of Protein and Amino Acid Supplementation on Performance and Training Adaptations During Ten Weeks of Resistance Training

Chad M. Kerksick,a Christopher J. Rasmussen,a Stacy L. Lancaster,a Bharat Magu,a Penney Smith,a Charles Melton,a Michael Greenwood,a Anthony L. Almada,b Conrad P. Earnest,c and Richard B. Kreidera, daCenter for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health Research, Department of Health, Human Performance and Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, Texas 76798;

IMAGINutrition, Inc., Laguna Niguel, California 92677;
The Cooper Institute for Aerobics Research, Division of Epidemiology & Clinical Applications, Dallas, Texas 75230
Address correspondence to Dr. Richard B. Kreider, E-mail: Richard_Kreider@baylor.edu

ABSTRACT
Kerksick, C.M., C.J. Rasmussen, S.L. Lancaster, B. Magu, P. Smith, C. Melton, M. Greenwood, A.L. Almada, C.P. Earnest, and R.B. Kreider. The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training. J. Strength Cond. Res. 20(3):643–653. 2006.—The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of whey protein supplementation on body composition, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and anaerobic capacity during 10 weeks of resistance training. Thirty-six resistance-trained males (31.0 ± 8.0 years, 179.1 ± 8.0 cm, 84.0 ± 12.9 kg, 17.8 ± 6.6%) followed a 4 days-per-week split body part resistance training program for 10 weeks. Three groups of supplements were randomly assigned, prior to the beginning of the exercise program, in a double-blind manner to all subjects: 48 g per day (g·d−1) carbohydrate placebo (P), 40 g·d−1 of whey protein + 8 g·d−1 of casein (WC), or 40 g·d−1 of whey protein + 3 g·d−1 branched-chain amino acids + 5 g·d−1 L-glutamine (WBG). At 0, 5, and 10 weeks, subjects were tested for fasting blood samples, body mass, body composition using dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench and leg press, 80% 1RM maximal repetitions to fatigue for bench press and leg press, and 30-second Wingate anaerobic capacity tests. No changes (p > 0.05) were noted in all groups for energy intake, training volume, blood parameters, and anaerobic capacity. WC experienced the greatest increases in DEXA lean mass (P = 0.0 ± 0.9; WC = 1.9 ± 0.6; WBG = −0.1 ± 0.3 kg, p < 0.05) and DEXA fat-free mass (P = 0.1 ± 1.0; WC = 1.8 ± 0.6; WBG = −0.1 ± 0.2 kg, p < 0.05). Significant increases in 1RM bench press and leg press were observed in all groups after 10 weeks. In this study, the combination of whey and casein protein promoted the greatest increases in fat-free mass after 10 weeks of heavy resistance training. Athletes, coaches, and nutritionists can use these findings to increase fat-free mass and to improve body composition during resistance training.

Keywords: casein, whey, branched-chain amino acids, glutamine, digestion speed.

Kinda flies in the face of the whey only advocates PWO doesn't it? (mind you, it doesn't list in the abstract when the subjects supplemented)

Of course, this also assumes they ate relatively the same meals and used the same meal timing over the course of the study. It also assumes they got the same amount of rest, had the same amount of stressors in their life, made the same incremental weight progressions, had the same genetics, biochemistry and phenotypic expressions.

[emitecaps]

I suppose if I wanted to kill the thread, that's okay -- its my thread.

And I only took umbrage with the concept that I "refused" to discuss something. That is just silly. Mostly, I was giving DG shit, because in fact the conversation was moving along swimmingly until he tried to play director.

Anyway, I don't even remember what was being discussed about cortisol, lets just say that I personally do not believe cortisol to be an important factor worth worrying about due to training. Which is probably why I "refused" to address it.

Cortisol can blunt insulin response or release or both, I forget which exactly. Thus is can severely affect protein synthesis postworkout and close that anabolic window. At least that's the impression I got from trouble's posts but perhaps she can elaborate if she even reads this thread anymore.

[Twin Peak]

Cortisol can blunt insulin response or release or both, I forget which exactly. Thus is can severely affect protein synthesis postworkout and close that anabolic window. At least that's the impression I got from trouble's posts but perhaps she can elaborate if she even reads this thread anymore.

Yes, I got the same impression. Again, these effects are overstated, in my opinion. Cortisol will be elevated from training -- it is supposed to be. Its your body's response to stress. Its somewhat necessary. While cortisol will be elevated, protein synthesis will also be jacked way up, from the training.

Again, I am talking about normally functioning individuals -- if your response to training is hampered, or you particularly have cortisol issues, these statements will not apply.

[emitecaps]

Yes, I got the same impression. Again, these effects are overstated, in my opinion. Cortisol will be elevated from training -- it is supposed to be. Its your body's response to stress. Its somewhat necessary. While cortisol will be elevated, protein synthesis will also be jacked way up, from the training.

Again, I am talking about normally functioning individuals -- if your response to training is hampered, or you particularly have cortisol issues, these statements will not apply.

I think it depends on your phenotype. Ectos have high cortisol levels and I think it can affect their protein synthesis.

We know that after a workout you are more anabolic but for low long does this period last? I hear roughly 3 hours and then protein synthesis drops. Eating more protein or carbs won't stimulate protein synthesis at least to the degree you acheive postwork. So it seems that you need most of your protein centered around your workout. So if you workout in the morning then eating a big dinner won't help much. Also eating 2g protein per lb bodyweight might not help if it's taken around the time you workout.

[Gordo]

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun;86(6):2881-9.Click here to read Links
Cortisol and growth hormone responses to exercise at different times of day.

* Kanaley JA,
* Weltman JY,
* Pieper KS,
* Weltman A,
* Hartman ML.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, 22908, USA.

Exercise of appropriate intensity is a potent stimulus for GH and cortisol secretion. Circadian and diurnal rhythms may modulate the GH and cortisol responses to exercise, but nutrition, sleep, prior exercise patterns, and body composition are potentially confounding factors. To determine the influence of the time of day on the GH and cortisol response to acute exercise, we studied 10 moderately trained young men (24.1 +/- 1.1 yr old; maximal oxygen consumption, 47.9 +/- 1.4 mL/kg.min; percent body fat, 13.2 +/- 0.6%). After a supervised night of sleep and a standard meal 12 h before exercise, subjects exercised at a constant velocity (to elicit an initial blood lactate concentration of approximately 2.5 mmol/L) on a treadmill for 30 min on 3 separate occasions, starting at 0700, 1900, and 2400 h. Blood samples were obtained at 5-min intervals for 1 h before and 5 h after the start of exercise; subjects were not allowed to sleep during this period. Subjects were also studied on 3 control days under identical conditions without exercise. There were no significant differences with time of day in the mean blood lactate and submaximal oxygen consumption values during exercise. The differences over time in serum GH and cortisol concentrations between the exercise day and the control day were determined with 95% confidence limits for each time of day. Exercise stimulated a significant increase in serum GH concentrations over control day values for approximately 105--145 min (P < 0.05) with no significant difference in the magnitude of this response by time of day. The increase in serum GH concentrations with exercise was followed by a transient suppression of GH release (for approximately 55--90 min; P < 0.05) after exercise at 0700 and 1900 h, but not at 2400 h. Although the duration of the increase in serum cortisol concentrations after exercise was similar (approximately 150--155 min; P < 0.05) at 0700, 1900, and 2400 h, the magnitude of this increase over control day levels was greatest at 2400 h. This difference was significant for approximately 130 min and approximately 40 min compared to exercise at 1900 and 0700 h, respectively (P < 0.05). The cortisol response to exercise at 0700 h was significantly greater than that at 1900 h for about 55 min (P < 0.05). A rebound suppression of cortisol release for about 50 min (P < 0.05) was observed after exercise at 2400 h, but not 0700 or 1900 h. Both baseline (before exercise) and peak cortisol concentrations were significantly higher at 0700 h than at 1900 or 2400 h (P < 0.01). We conclude that time of day does not alter the GH response to exercise; however, the exercise-induced cortisol response is modulated by time of day.

PMID: 11397904 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/6/2881

[Twin Peak]

I think it depends on your phenotype. Ectos have high cortisol levels and I think it can affect their protein synthesis.

We know that after a workout you are more anabolic but for low long does this period last? I hear roughly 3 hours and then protein synthesis drops. Eating more protein or carbs won't stimulate protein synthesis at least to the degree you acheive postwork. So it seems that you need most of your protein centered around your workout. So if you workout in the morning then eating a big dinner won't help much. Also eating 2g protein per lb bodyweight might not help if it's taken around the time you workout.

I don't disagree, and all of that is taken into account with my pre/during/post recommendations.

[arlowf]

This is in the top three for my favorite threads on the web, most likely because it's made a huge difference in my gains because I used to lift on an empty stomach and thought my PostWorkout shake was covering me. Wrong.

For some n=1 feedback here:

Iv'e been taking preworkout:

LowCarb Yogurt, Cottage Cheese, BCAA's, SyntheSize (Which has CEE), and glycerine.

Postworkout:
Cottage cheese, LowCarb Yogurt, Protein powder, vinegar, lemon juice, BCAA's.

Anyone who works out should read this thread before wasting time in the gym, like I did.

Thanks Trouble and TwinPeak.

[Twin Peak]

Cool, glad to help. Didn't know you posted here.

[viet_jon]

This is in the top three for my favorite threads on the web, most likely because it's made a huge difference in my gains because I used to lift on an empty stomach and thought my PostWorkout shake was covering me. Wrong.

For some n=1 feedback here:

Iv'e been taking preworkout:

LowCarb Yogurt, Cottage Cheese, BCAA's, SyntheSize (Which has CEE), and glycerine.

Postworkout:
Cottage cheese, LowCarb Yogurt, Protein powder, vinegar, lemon juice, BCAA's.

Anyone who works out should read this thread before wasting time in the gym, like I did.

Thanks Trouble and TwinPeak.

this thread started just over a month ago. your saying in one month time you've noticed that much of a difference?

[ffemt]

This is a awsome thread!But way over my head can someone please break all of this down for us slow people.I see alot of good info put can't put it were it needs to go.Thanks

[Twin Peak]

I gave my opinion on the nuts and bolts in the first post.

[B]
Shall we kick it off? My personal opinion, based on limited research I have seen, and anecdotal feedback of my self and many others tells me that FOR BODY COMPOSITION, the following is the best approach for MOST:

Pre = EAAs and a small amount of simple carbs (20g or so).

During = if anything, BCAAs

Post = whey, plus a slow released protein (prefer casien) plus some simple carbs (10-15 grams) plus some slower released carbs.

[ffemt]

Thanks twin I guess after reading everything I forgot the start. Thanks again