The Definitive Pre, During, and Post Workout Nutrition Discussion Thread

I am told that this will be moderated, and trolls and morons will be deleted. Likewise, noise of the sake of noise will be deleted. What is permitted? Discussion on the aforementioned typoc from a scientific and/or practical level. All comments must be back up with reference to *something*.

"Bro whey rocks!" doesn't work.

"Using whey post workout over three months produced better gains for me and my training partner then a whole food meal..." does work. So does scientific literature.

Cool? Oh, and any jokes about Robert are permitted as well.

Shall we kick it off? My personal opinion, based on limited research I have seen, and anecdotal feedback of my self and many others tells me that FOR BODY COMPOSITION, the following is the best approach for MOST:

Pre = EAAs and a small amount of simple carbs (20g or so).

During = if anything, BCAAs

Post = whey, plus a slow released protein (prefer casien) plus some simple carbs (10-15 grams) plus some slower released carbs.

This is nutrition only, I am not talking about other goodies like CEE, Citruline Malate, NO stuff, and so on. Nor am I talking energy boosters.

Some research (since TP doesn't like to cite sources, I will do it. :p)

Here is one on the before workout shake

Kevin D. Tipton, Blake B. Rasmussen, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, Sharla K. Owens-Stovall, Bart E. Petrini, and Robert R. Wolfe, Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise, American Journal of Endocrinological Metabolism, vol. 28, no. 2, pg 197-206, 2001.

he present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.[/QUOTE]




and here is on study on protein during.


Anantaraman R, Carmines AA, Gaesser GA, Weltman A., Effects of carbohydrate supplementation on performance during 1 hour of high-intensity exercise., International Journal of Sports Medicine, volume 16, number 7, pg 461-5, 1991.

The effects of carbohydrate supplementation on high-intensity exercise performance were examined in 5 moderately-trained subjects (age = 28.4 +/- 1.5 yr; ht = 171.0 +/- 4.3 cm; wt = 66.25 +/- 6.32 kg). High-intensity exercise tests (initiated at the power output (PO) associated with 90% VO2 peak [mean = 201 +/- 21 watts] x 60 min, with drop-off in PO allowed over time) were completed under the following randomized double blind conditions: 1) pre-exercise glucose polymer (G)/placebo during exercise (G/P), 2) G pre-exercise and during exercise (G/G), and 3) placebo pre-exercise and during exercise (P/P). Subjects ingested 300 ml of a sweetened placebo or a similarly flavored 10% G solution, immediately prior to and every 15 min during exercise. No differences were observed in PO among the 3 treatments until min 40-60 where PO was greater with G. This resulted in significantly greater total work (and less drop-off in PO) with G (G/P = 619 +/- 234kJ [14.5% lower than the value associated with 201 watts maintained for 60 min (724kJ)], G/G = 599 +/- 235 kJ [17.3% lower than the value associated with 201 watts maintained for 60 min]) compared with placebo (P/P = 560 +/- 198 kJ [22.7% drop-off in average PO]) (p < 0.05). VO2 followed a similar pattern with no difference in VO2 over min 0-40 and significantly higher VO2 in G/P and a trend for higher VO2 in G/G during min 40-60 compared to placebo. Results of the present study indicate that, compared to placebo, pre-exercise ingestion of G (30 g in 10% solution) results in less drop-off in PO during 1 hour of high-intensity exercise performance, and that no further benefit is observed when the same amount of G is also ingested every 15 min during exercise.


And one for the post workout shake

Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe, An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise, vol. 88, no. 2, 386-392, 2000.

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.

Here is a good one explaining what is going on post workout

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

Cool.

Forty percent of your EAAs are glucogenic. That, plus your simple carbs will hit those who have relatively poor glucose control like a ton of bricks. They get relatively little energy out of it, but it does incite, lets say, unhappiness, in the gut department.

Also, the retention time of this drink will be relatively short. Its influence as a deterrent of proteolysis is..what?

Short-lived, methinks.

I'm with Robert (and some of our friends back at M2), in the belief that BCAAs might be a better source of cell signalling agents for directing energy metabolism during exertion. This would be consumed just before and during workout. A prior meal within a period of one 1.5 hours prior to workout would be needed to supply nutrients in plasma to muscle during workout.

Working presumption: a more sizeable, slower release format of peptides and energy equivalents is preferrable, within a period of approximately 45 min prior to workout, to simply using BCAAs, for those with glucose tolerance issues.

Caveats: time of day and cortisol levels are factors worth considering, as well as type of extertion and its duration, cardiovascular conditioning, insulin sensitivity, hydration status during and afterwards, and reducing equivalent status (to offset ROS and oxidative stress induced pH shifts).

also, I should say, the during.....I would add carbs depending on the goals and duration of the training. Obviously, this is a BBing site to the BCAAs are probably going to be favored more. if we are working with athletes and going 1.5-2hrs of training we might throw carbs in there. Endurance athletes especially are going to want the carbs to have extra energy and help produce kreb cycle intermediates to help faciliate better functioning of the krebs cycle and utilization of fat when necessary.

I know Dale usually bangs down a carb drink either during or before (accelerade maybe?) his workout.

Carbs are much more important for endurance and performance then for bodybuilding.

Sharon, have you ever regularly used EAAs preworkout? You can literally feel the difference in energy and endurance (yeah, it can cause stomach issues).

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Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Carbs are much more important for endurance and performance then for bodybuilding.

Sharon, have you ever regularly used EAAs preworkout? You can literally feel the difference in energy and endurance (yeah, it can cause stomach issues).

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yea, I know. that is why i was saying if you are lifting for athletic purposes it will be different then if you are lifting to look good in your posing trunks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Carbs are much more important for endurance and performance then for bodybuilding.

Sharon, have you ever regularly used EAAs preworkout? You can literally feel the difference in energy and endurance (yeah, it can cause stomach issues).

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Yes sir, I did try them. What I found was: they were unable to stave off hypoglycemia during hour long workouts. They caused gut upset because of the their action in situ, in the absence of gut buffering (and gut dumping inhibiting fats and fiber). In essence, about 20% of these EAAs are known to bind to key receptors in stomach and ileum that cause both acid and bile acid dumping. That sir, worsens gastric reflux disease.

But more importantly, some of these amino acids have secondary roles as neurotransmitters - alanine, glycine, and histidine, as well as glutamine and arginine, come to mind. These amino acids, Steve, are not typical to natural dietary habits. In the mesomorph, they are not problematic and elicit the type response you affirm as desirable.

However, in the ecto- and endomorph, they elicit a very different, and undesirable CNS response.

In the endomorph, a release of excess insulin from pancreas, and of excess triglycerides from liver. With that CNS hit and insulin excess, any glucose that is present as simple carbs has a disasterous effect on rebound hyperglycmia and then, within a period of an hour or so, a plunge below baseline plasma glucose to hypoglycemia. This is precisely the condition that has been reported on several forums (you may recall Prolangtums thread back on M2) when energy drinks with this mixture of aminos and simple glucose where consumed pre workout.

In the ectomorph, an excess flush of acids and without the benefit of food to buffer it, a concommitant release of bile acids as well. These are emitted through the action of beta-adrenergic receptors. The ectomorph has exceptional sensitivity to CNS stimulation and impaired uptake (leaky gut syndrome) of nutrients. While he enjoys full utilization of glucose, normal muscosal cell transport of aminos and glucose does not occur because this type tends to have food move a bit too smartly through the intestinal track.

Both the endo- and ectomorph will suffer frome excess muscle proteolysis to meet energy demands during a longer workout. Both may suffer from low energy status as a result of your suggested pre-workout supplement recommendation.

For the mesomorph, I concur, your approach is sensible, Steve. Problem is, the mesomorph does not predominate as the archetype somatype on this and many other forums.

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Originally Posted by Trouble

Yes sir, I did try them. What I found was: they were unable to stave off hypoglycemia during hour long workouts. They caused gut upset because of the their action in situ, in the absence of gut buffering (and gut dumping inhibiting fats and fiber). In essence, about 20% of these EAAs are known to bind to key receptors in stomach and ileum that cause both acid and bile acid dumping. That sir, worsens gastric reflux disease.

But more importantly, some of these amino acids have secondary roles as neurotransmitters - alanine, glycine, and histidine, as well as glutamine and arginine, come to mind. These amino acids, Steve, are not typical to natural dietary habits. In the mesomorph, they are not problematic and elicit the type response you affirm as desirable.

However, in the ecto- and endomorph, they elicit a very different, and undesirable CNS response.

In the endomorph, a release of excess insulin from pancreas, and of excess triglycerides from liver. With that CNS hit and insulin excess, any glucose that is present as simple carbs has a disasterous effect on rebound hyperglycmia and then, within a period of an hour or so, a plunge below baseline plasma glucose to hypoglycemia. This is precisely the condition that has been reported on several forums (you may recall Prolangtums thread back on M2) when energy drinks with this mixture of aminos and simple glucose where consumed pre workout.

In the ectomorph, an excess flush of acids and without the benefit of food to buffer it, a concommitant release of bile acids as well. These are emitted through the action of beta-adrenergic receptors. The ectomorph has exceptional sensitivity to CNS stimulation and impaired uptake (leaky gut syndrome) of nutrients. While he enjoys full utilization of glucose, normal muscosal cell transport of aminos and glucose does not occur because this type tends to have food move a bit too smartly through the intestinal track.

Both the endo- and ectomorph will suffer frome excess muscle proteolysis to meet energy demands during a longer workout. Both may suffer from low energy status as a result of your suggested pre-workout supplement recommendation.

For the mesomorph, I concur, your approach is sensible, Steve. Problem is, the mesomorph does not predominate as the archetype somatype on this and many other forums.

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can you cite a source that actually goes into the breakdown of how these amino acids are digested, processed and the different effects they have on those three standard body types? I would like to know what book (or study) you are getting that from. I have never read much into it but would like to read more.

Hmm. Yes, I can pull up citations that support what I am talking about for the amino acid action on CNS. Not tonight, its late (later where you are, LOL).

The insights I provide on CNS involvement in the pathophysiology of endo- and ectomorphs is a bit more involved. I would have to think on how to present evidence here; its not found in textbooks. Its just now begun to be supported by micronutrient supplementation studies in the biomedical research lit.

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Originally Posted by Trouble

Hmm. Yes, I can pull up citations that support what I am talking about for the amino acid action on CNS. Not tonight, its late (later where you are, LOL).

The insights I provide on CNS involvement in the pathophysiology of endo- and ectomorphs is a bit more involved. I would have to think on how to present evidence here; its not found in textbooks. Its just now begun to be supported by micronutrient supplementation studies in the biomedical research lit.

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that would be great.

I may be able to find info on the amino acid action on the CNS in a textbook here.

I am specifically interested in the latter part, the involvement in the pathophyiology of ecto/endmorphs. I would appreciate ant study or reference you could provide.

thanks,
p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trouble

For the mesomorph, I concur, your approach is sensible, Steve. Problem is, the mesomorph does not predominate as the archetype somatype on this and many other forums.

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As you know, I am not mesomorph. Neither are the many others who I am thinking of that notice a dramatic difference when using Vendetta (for example).

In fact, I am sipping it right now -- and I am off to train arms.

I feel that I have always neglected pre-workout supplementation rather than post-workout supplementation (post-workout seems to get all the glitz and glitter throughout bb circles).

I have always loved the ECA stack, although I havent used in at all in the past 6 months, and am looking for something more nutritionally sound (although something to add to my intensity and focus would also be grand)

Seems to me that BCAA's are the way to go pre-and during workout routines (will someone please shed some light on what EAA's are?).

Personally.. my own pre-workout formulation has been a simple carb mixture of both slow and fast release carbohydrates (maybe whole grain mini-wheats with sugar) approx one hour before a workout with a cup of coffee. But it seems I am missing out on certain aspects to aid my workout.

Suggestions from anyone?

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Seems to me that BCAA's are the way to go pre-and during workout routines (will someone please shed some light on what EAA's are?).

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EAAs are Essential Amino Acids. They are essential because the body cannot synthesize them on its own, so they need to be consumed through our diet. There are 9 of them, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by camarosuper6

(will someone please shed some light on what EAA's are?).

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Essential Amino Acids

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Personally.. my own pre-workout formulation has been a simple carb mixture of both slow and fast release carbohydrates (maybe whole grain mini-wheats with sugar) approx one hour before a workout with a cup of coffee. But it seems I am missing out on certain aspects to aid my workout.

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I always eat a meal about 45-60min. before my workout too. I am thinking about possibly switching over to something like a pre-workout drink, such as accelerade, before my training instead of the meal, because sometimes the food feels like it is slowing me down or, it doesn't sit well in the gut.

For what it is worth, I used to also drink BCAAs (ICE brand) during the workout (sipping it). I never noticed any difference in my performance though (i know....completely anecdotal). Maybe because I didn't have any carbs with it. Maybe the accelerade would be a better fit just prior to training.

Thanks for the input. I was unaware of abbreviations :P

But in reality, Im not big on supplements, but would be willing to try something that would seriously aid my workout performance. I have seen vendetta and a few others (rather pricey)... feedback on any PARTICULAR supps?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Thanks for the input. I was unaware of abbreviations

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it's not an abbreviation it is an acronym. ;)

okay, back to topic.

I am big on the Accelerade, it is pretty good stuff. I always had a meal 45 minutes or so prior to working out, but it would always make me feel odd, even if it was an hour before. I tried the protein 45 minutes before and it gave me the shits.

With the Accelerade, I hit half of it up 15 minutes before my warm up and the rest throughout the workout. Postworkout I hit up Endurox which is essentially a double dosing of Accelereade with a few other things in it, so I am pretty much doing the nutrient timing system thing. My results are great so far after 2 1/2 months. They recommend 20g whey 2 hours after a workout, but I don't always get that in, I typically get 20g of protein from food, like beef jerky or something..

I currently have MuscleAde, which is the strength training version of Accelerade, with Caffeine and a couple more aminos, but I am switching back to Accelerade, MuscleAde tastes like shit.

If you want citations, read Nutrient Timing by Ivy and some other dude, I am far too lazy to look for the reference.

So I looked over the Accelerade hype (home page). It looks like it has some promise, small carb dose (6%) and has protein as well, plus magnesium, and vitamins C and E as antioxidants. That must mean tocopherol and ascrobate esters, which isn't a bad idea. It claims to rehydrate and induce recovery, plus replenish glycogen.

I would want to see the ingredients list.

Ingredients: Sucrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Fructose, Maltodextrin, Citric Acid, Sodium Chloride, Lecithin, Natural Flavor, Magnesium Oxide Vitamin E Acetate, Ascorbic Acid, L-Arginine, Monopotassium phosphate, FD&C Yellow 5, FD&C Yellow 6.

Reformulate it with something like Supercarb, throw in some whey concentrate instead of what is probably isolate, fuck the fructose and maltodextrin, citrate (pH buffering) is good. Sodium chloride, no brainer - but lethicin? Bang up the choline, for "energy". Fuckchop logic. Magnesium oxide is not clever (wtf?? company doesn't know about mag citrate?), L-arginine - nnooooo (more CNS stimulation through eNOS), phosphate is a buffer (they wouldn't need it if they had the sense not to use the mag citrate), and then yellow dyes to make it pretty.

Nope. Close but no cigar, for product smarts.

So you are taking in very dilute whey, a little vitamin C and E, magnesium citrate, table salt, a little cheap ass phosphate buffer, really cheap ass fat (lethicin), good ole maltodextrin and sucrose. Oh yeah, arginine.

20 grams sucrose (21.5 grams carbs), 5 grams protein, 200 mgs sodium, 1 gram of fat, no fiber, 10 mg cholesterol. 120 mostly empty calories.

1.9 lbs, 28 servings, about 13 bucks on sale (not shipped).

If you glucose tolerance is good, this product works. If not, you're a sucker.

Then I decided to look over the other product mentioned, Vendetta.

Vendetta Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1.5 Scoops (45g)
Servings Per Container: 20
Amount Per Serving:
Calories 168
Calories from Fat 0
Total Fat 0g
Saturated Fat 0g
Cholesterol 0mg
Total Carbs 29g
Dietary Fiber 0g
Sugars 13g
Protein 13g
Sodium 120mg is this really necessary?
Calcium 160mg
Phosphorus 20mg
L-Leucine 4290mg BCAA
L-Lysine 2070mg EAA
L-Valine 1830mg BCAA
L-Phenylalanine 1607mg neurotransmitter goodie
L-Threonine 1390mg EAA
L-Histidine 638mg EAA
L-Isoleucine 636mg BCAA
L-Methionine 447mg finally did something right - big plus
Potassium 150mg not a bad idea
Magnesium 180mg not enough to be useful
Vitamin B-6 also a big plus, probably 100 mgs

Missing: zinc, some sort of antioxidant.

Cleverness points for: Krebs cycle intermediates succinate, lactate, citrate

Threonine can be degraded to lactate and go into the TCA to form acetyl-CoA, for additional energy, can also form glycine to drive CNS action.

Phenylalanine can be hydroxylated to form tyrosine (neurotransmitters)

Lysine is used to form carnitine, driving TCA metabolism - plus points here.

I would have thrown in cysteine as well, but with methionine there, no problem.

(9 essential amino acids are: histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, tryptophan, and valine.)

Negative brownie points for histadine, which can form histamine. Not needed here, really.

Ingredients:
Sucrose, d-glucose, amino acid blend, natural and artificial colors and flavors, citric acid, magnesium lactate, calcium succinate, mono potassium phosphate, pyridoxine hcl, sodium citrate, sodium chloride, sucralose.

All in all, a better product than Accelerade. Proportionately more expensive.

20 servings, 2 lbs, 30 bucks (on sale, as was the accelerade)

A little biochemistry: Glucogenic amino acids are those that give rise to a net production of pyruvate or TCA cycle intermediates, such as a-ketoglutarate or oxaloacetate, all of which are precursors to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

All amino acids except lysine and leucine are at least partly glucogenic. Lysine and leucine are the only amino acids that are solely ketogenic, giving rise only to acetylCoA or acetoacetylCoA, neither of which can bring about net glucose production.

A small group of amino acids comprised of isoleucine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and tyrosine give rise to both glucose and fatty acid precursors and are thus characterized as being glucogenic and ketogenic.

So, we have amino acids here that can feed two energy pathways: glucose and fatty acids. Do we REALLY need glucose to shuttle aminos inot cells?

Lotta hype about this fact. For fast absorption...maaayybee. BUt lets face it, unless you are doing cardio, no. The energy you largely need is already stored and ready to go.

Do you need calories that are fairly fast acting to avoid hypoglycemia.

Yuppers! If you have problems with hydration for hard cardio (HITT) and sprints, use these products.

For arm exercises?? You gotta be outta your fucking mind.

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Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I am big on the Accelerade, it is pretty good stuff. I always had a meal 45 minutes or so prior to working out, but it would always make me feel odd, even if it was an hour before. I tried the protein 45 minutes before and it gave me the shits.

With the Accelerade, I hit half of it up 15 minutes before my warm up and the rest throughout the workout. Postworkout I hit up Endurox which is essentially a double dosing of Accelereade with a few other things in it, so I am pretty much doing the nutrient timing system thing. My results are great so far after 2 1/2 months. They recommend 20g whey 2 hours after a workout, but I don't always get that in, I typically get 20g of protein from food, like beef jerky or something..

I currently have MuscleAde, which is the strength training version of Accelerade, with Caffeine and a couple more aminos, but I am switching back to Accelerade, MuscleAde tastes like shit.

If you want citations, read Nutrient Timing by Ivy and some other dude, I am far too lazy to look for the reference.

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How much protein is in the Endurox? What type of protein is it? Whey? A blend?

12g whey concentrate. I think they are reformulating again, they have separate products for strength training and endurance. I actually like the Accelerade/Endurox better than the MuscleAde/Whatever the hell it's called.

that is such a small amount of whey. Are they reformulating it to have more protein? Or, is that why Ivy recommends the 20g of whey 2 hours after?

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Originally Posted by P-funk

that is such a small amount of whey. Are they reformulating it to have more protein? Or, is that why Ivy recommends the 20g of whey 2 hours after?

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The thought is that more carb immediately after blunts cortisol, and leads to a better hormonal profile than with more protein. 2 hours later you load up on the protein because the body is at a better status to utilize it.

How does more carbs after a workout blunt cortisol if you can't use the carbs effectively? BCAAs have been shown to blunt cortisol. Glucose?? Maybe if it keeps you from a blood sugar crash. That presumes, like I said, that you can utilize glucose correctly. That wouldn't be 2/3rds of our general population, and probably not more than 30-40% of our regular forum members. Quick assay of members over at M2 about a year ago. Most couldn't handle anything more than a small meal without having significant blood sugar problems.

You get plenty of glucose cranked out from ordinary whey blends (not just concentrate or isolate, you want both for parsed delivery of aminos and also immune regulating proteins) without having to add glucose to it.

But we're talking about pre-WO supplements.

Dales got a problem with pre-WO whey. Maybe it hits his stomach CNS receptors like a ton of bricks, causes nausea. Maybe it wouldn't if he used it an hour before and added a little fiber (not a lot, a small amount) and oil to stop gastric dumping.

I know lots of folks can't do a serious cardio WO with a full stomach. For him, this approach of small amount of carbs and aminos must make sense.

I also recall him making a statement about his client training schedule being somewhat fucked, in that it interfered with him getting good sleep. Not sure just how badly that screws with his CNS function and digestion..but you know, it does have an effect.

I actually like that Vendetta formula, but I would use it for cardio. I would never just use BCAAs before a workout, thats not going to do much for staving off hypoglycemia (mostly because you can't get very much into solution at any one time).

Kinda weird. I naturally presume that most folks who are doing a primarily anaerboic workout would be using a whey shake about 1 hour or so before a workout, with something to keep it from whizzing thru the intestines. The glutamine, readily oxidized to glutamate, hits the NMDA receptors hard, and causes the shits that Dale mentions. You don't get the shits if you use a little fiber and oil to absorb and slow down the way these compounds enter intestinal mucosal cells.

Its why you can also use larger shakes and get a much better absorption rate than you would if just used the shakes as is (plain whey plus dextrose or the somewhat idiotic approach of adding oats, from which much fo the useful fiber and micronutrients are stripped out when the bran outer coating is removed).

Thus, you can train your gut to absorb and utilize protein loads well in excess of 40-50 grams of whey. You choose your whey types, and you slow down processing, plus you deliver much needed micronutrients and mixed fiber types with it. Again, we are talking about post WO shakes.

PreWO is a tricky situation. Smaller shakes. Still parsed, with enough caloric load to sustain someone training hard for an hour or more.

I have no scheduling problem, I get 8 a night, minimum of 7.

Performance-wise, I have found nothing better than Accelerade pre workout, but as I have said, I tried regular food, protein shake, and Accelerade. I am sure there may be a better alternative, but most of the research done up until and after Nutrient Timing, points towards high GI carb with low protein pre-workout. Again, I am not worried about physique so much as performance. I certainly don't believe all that needs to be known is known, though.

Also, there is a certain amount of retail bullshit going on here with respect to hydration during a strength training workout. A water bottle seems to suffice, hunky dory.

Most who do serious cardio use a water bottle and maybe a little electrolytes added. Do you need an electrolyte and glucose sports drink for a 20-35 or 40 min workout, your average cardio bout, if you have a water bottle? Maybe in intense heat if you are sweating like a pig. Otherwise?? (this presumes you are using some sort of nutrient loading before workout).

Dale, those drinks were designed for endurance sports, not for lifting.

We are talking about a strength training workout, aren't we??? Beyond the first few dozen seconds, what exactly do you think you are using for energy in lift?? You want some glucose to help keep the body from going into the shitter (and start eating protein) during heavy exertion (keeps non muscle cells running, along with brain). You also are getting some replenishment of glucose in muscle cells while working out, but you can get that from glucogenic aminos and slower acting carbs as well. The BCAAs are slowing proteolysis (which does occur), providing some glucose, and also helping to blunt cortisol rise. I don't see who an endurance sports drink of primarily glucose and electolytes is addressing the physiology demands of an anaerobic workout.