Doc' says "There are only five truly beneficial supplements" but which ones?

Big G · 04-11-2007, 08:01 AM

My kidneys failed recently due to dehydration. While in the hospital I got talking with the doctor about my diet and a supplement program. When I mentioned Creatine the doc said "There are only really five truly beneficial supplements. Creatine is one of them."

Foolishly I interupted him at that point and the conversation went in a different direction. Ever since then I've been wondering which five truly beneficial supplements he was refering to. I'm guessing that NO2 and Glutamine might be two of them, but does anyone have any idea on what the doctor thought the other two may be?

I need to order some more vitamins today so it'd be great if I could figure this out quickly. That way I could place one order and avoid duplicating shipping costs. Any help very much appreciated.

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big G

My kidneys failed recently due to dehydration. While in the hospital I got talking with the doctor about my diet and a supplement program. When I mentioned Creatine the doc said "There are only really five truly beneficial supplements. Creatine is one of them."

Foolishly I interupted him at that point and the conversation went in a different direction. Ever since then I've been wondering which five truly beneficial supplements he was refering to. I'm guessing that NO2 and Glutamine might be two of them, but does anyone have any idea on what the doctor thought the other two may be?

I need to order some more vitamins today so it'd be great if I could figure this out quickly. That way I could place one order and avoid duplicating shipping costs. Any help very much appreciated.

if i had to guess, i wouldn't put glutamine or NO2 in there. glutamine is largly a waste of money. NO2 while great for what it does is a luxury product.
i would say protein and amino acids are definetely two of them.

juggernaut2005 · 04-11-2007, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

if i had to guess, i wouldn't put glutamine or NO2 in there. glutamine is largly a waste of money. NO2 while great for what it does is a luxury product.
i would say protein and amino acids are definetely two of them.

Arent amino acids proteins?

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut2005

Arent amino acids proteins?

amino acids are constituents of proteins, but they are very beneficial taken in their free form. i dont know the doctor's train of though, if he would consider them in the same category, but i look at it as if protein is more of a food and amino's are more of a supplement. you could call them protein extracts.

**Dale Mabry** · 04-11-2007, 09:41 AM

Fish Oils or any EFAs, Multi-vitamin, Creatine, Protein, and possibly Glucosamine/Chondroitin. The Glucosamine is a stretch, though, typically you would only use it if you were having an issue. In my personal opinion, Accelerade/Endurox R4 should be in there instead of Glucosamine/Chondroitin, I have made a ton of progress using these 2, but the results are different and related to recovery, which indirectly affects performance.

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 09:54 AM

glucosamin/chondrotin should be used regardless. if you have problem, its already too late.

**Dale Mabry** · 04-11-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

glucosamin/chondrotin should be used regardless. if you have problem, its already too late.

If you train properly, you shouldn't have a problem. Those joint formulas only work on tendonitis, they have no effect on arthritis. Taking something "just because" isn't necessarily a good thing, IMO.

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

If you train properly, you shouldn't have a problem. Those joint formulas only work on tendonitis, they have no effect on arthritis. Taking something "just because" isn't necessarily a good thing, IMO.

from everything i read the g/c combo is more for cartilage than tendons.

**Dale Mabry** · 04-11-2007, 11:44 AM

There was a recent NIH study that showed no effect on physiology wrt arthritis, which would be the only cartilage issue glucosamine would help. It was shown to relieve pain, but that was through mechanisms other than changes to the cartilage. I think there is an equal number of studies for and against it wrt arthritis, far from making it truly beneficial.

I think the actual study is posted here somewhere, but I gots to go.

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 11:51 AM

my whole point is once cartilage starts to go, thats it, it will go. there are several new studies on glucosamine that is starting to understand how it works. i agree the evidence isnt overwhelmingly saying it works, but there is enough to try it. cartilage is THE most important part of the joint, there is no reason not to protect it.

Quote:

The reverse glucosamine sulfate pathway: application in knee osteoarthritis.Herrero-Beaumont G, Rovati LC, Castaneda S, Alvarez-Soria MA, Largo R.
Rheumatology Department, Joint and Bone Research Laboratory, Fundacion Jimenez Diaz--Capio, Autonomous University of Madrid, Avenida Reyes Catolicos 2, 28040 Madrid, Spain. gherrero@fjd.es

Glucosamine is a natural amino sugar and a normal constituent of glycosaminoglycans in the cartilage matrix and synovial fluid of joints. Crystalline glucosamine sulfate salt has been approved as a medicinal product for the treatment of osteoarthritis in several European countries. Nevertheless, although it has been prescribed for more than 10 years, it is only due to the research in the last 5 years that the scientific basis underlying its beneficial effects are starting to be clarified. In randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials, this compound clinically controls pain and produces beneficial effects in patients with knee osteoarthritis, possibly delaying the appearance of long-term structural changes in the joint (i.e., it has a structure-modifying effect). Furthermore, it has an excellent toxicity profile. Despite the different lines of investigation that have been followed, the mechanism of action of glucosamine sulfate still remains to be clearly defined. However, the activity of glucosamine sulfate has recently been related to its capacity to downregulate the catabolic effects of pro-inflammatory molecules, such as IL-1, which are present in osteoarthritic cartilage.

**Dale Mabry** · 04-11-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

my whole point is once cartilage starts to go, thats it, it will go. there are several new studies on glucosamine that is starting to understand how it works. i agree the evidence isnt overwhelmingly saying it works, but there is enough to try it. cartilage is THE most important part of the joint, there is no reason not to protect it.

I agree cartilage is imprtoant, but you should protect it by training smart, not taking a supplement that has a 50/50 chance of working. By "Truly beneficial", I believe he is referring to stuff that has an overwhelming amount of studies that say it work, with few or none that say it doesn't. IMO, joint formula isn't one of them.

I don't get where you think cartilage is the most important part of the joint, without a ligament there is no stability and without tendons there is no movement. I fyou are just referring to the joint capsule, without synovial fluid the cartilage goes quickly. Regardless, there is no scientific support that glucosamine or chondroitin have any effect on cartilage, look it up, all of the studies state that the effect is through pain mediation, which is unnecessary if you are not having pain.

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I agree cartilage is imprtoant, but you should protect it by training smart, not taking a supplement that has a 50/50 chance of working. By "Truly beneficial", I believe he is referring to stuff that has an overwhelming amount of studies that say it work, with few or none that say it doesn't. IMO, joint formula isn't one of them.

I don't get where you think cartilage is the most important part of the joint, without a ligament there is no stability and without tendons there is no movement. I fyou are just referring to the joint capsule, without synovial fluid the cartilage goes quickly. Regardless, there is no scientific support that glucosamine or chondroitin have any effect on cartilage, look it up, all of the studies state that the effect is through pain mediation, which is unnecessary if you are not having pain.

i agree you should protect it by training smart, but i also believe in the extra insurance. i have joint problems myself and have been dealing with it for some time. i am saying cartilage is the most important in that it is the most delicate and irreplaceable component to the joint. while it is no small issue, but tendons and ligaments can in fact be replaced, cartilage at this point cannot. when its gone, its gone and joint replacement or resurfacing is next.

there are studies that show glucosamine has a direct effect on cartilage, it however will not help grow it back. there are also studies that show it has anti-inflammatory properties. but in my opinion this argument is moot for the simple fact that it may in fact help, so why not take it? if it doesnt work, it isnt toxic, and unless you have an allergy to shellfish you will have no adverse reactions and the price isnt prohibitive. i agree with your thinking that it is not 100% proven so why take it, but in the area of joints, nothing is 100% proven. to me the added insurance is more than worth the investment. we just have a different point of view on that.

bio-chem · 04-11-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

if i had to guess, i wouldn't put glutamine or NO2 in there. glutamine is largly a waste of money. NO2 while great for what it does is a luxury product.
i would say protein and amino acids are definetely two of them.

glutamine is an amino acid, is it not?

**Jodi** · 04-11-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

if i had to guess, i wouldn't put glutamine or NO2 in there. glutamine is largly a waste of money. NO2 while great for what it does is a luxury product.
i would say protein and amino acids are definetely two of them.

It depends on what the glutamine is being used for whether it is a waste or not. 10-20G per day is excellent for healing the gut and with the cost of glutamine lately is cheap enough.

For what the typical bodybuilder uses it for, then yeah, I agree it's a waste unless you are already extremely low BF%

**Jodi** · 04-11-2007, 03:13 PM

My guess would be:

Multi-Vit
Creatine
EFA's
Protein
Cal/Mag

**nni** · 04-11-2007, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio-chem

glutamine is an amino acid, is it not?

not an essential one.

**Dale Mabry** · 04-11-2007, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodi

Cal/Mag

You dominated me, that has to be the 5th.

Big G · 04-11-2007, 08:01 PM

Jeez! Whodathunkit'd've evolved into that big thing about glucosamine! Anyway... Kudos to the three of you for apparently knowing your stuff.

I was disappointed to hear that glutamine is largely a waste of time because I decided to get a bottle along with the vitamins I ordered. It wasn't expensive, but still... why is it a waste of time? Aren't bones, like, 60% glutamine, or something like that? Why would it have no benefit to my body?

Also, since we're all on a big supplement thing here, what are your thoughts on my taking Animal Pak instead of the NOW Adam multi' I was taking? And, how about I take Animal Stak 2 with it for hormonal/pump/whatever benefits?

...

Why do I feel like I'm throwing meat to sharks right now?

**Dale Mabry** · 04-12-2007, 03:53 PM

A vitamin is a vitamin, just get something time released, preferably in a 2 a day dosage.

I think Glutamine is good at keeping the immune system going, but I noticed that once I stopped it, I would get sick. I rarely get sick anyway, so I dropped it. I don't believe it has any direct effect on strength or size.

camarosuper6 · 04-12-2007, 09:02 PM

lmao @ NO2 being one of them.

Seriously, I laughed.

04-11-2007, 08:01 AM	#1
Big G Gettin' Diesel. Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cols,OH. It sucks. Posts: 1,212 Photos: 1	Doc' says "There are only five truly beneficial supplements" but which ones? My kidneys failed recently due to dehydration. While in the hospital I got talking with the doctor about my diet and a supplement program. When I mentioned Creatine the doc said "There are only really five truly beneficial supplements. Creatine is one of them." Foolishly I interupted him at that point and the conversation went in a different direction. Ever since then I've been wondering which five truly beneficial supplements he was refering to. I'm guessing that NO2 and Glutamine might be two of them, but does anyone have any idea on what the doctor thought the other two may be? I need to order some more vitamins today so it'd be great if I could figure this out quickly. That way I could place one order and avoid duplicating shipping costs. Any help very much appreciated.
	Goal...... DL:500lb, Sqt:400lb, Bnch:300lb Current.. DL:375lb, Sqt:335lb, Bnch:260lb Weight: 185lb (up 25lb), bf=15%ish Age:35 Training since 11/06 journal

04-11-2007, 09:41 AM	#5
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,882 Photos: 10	Fish Oils or any EFAs, Multi-vitamin, Creatine, Protein, and possibly Glucosamine/Chondroitin. The Glucosamine is a stretch, though, typically you would only use it if you were having an issue. In my personal opinion, Accelerade/Endurox R4 should be in there instead of Glucosamine/Chondroitin, I have made a ton of progress using these 2, but the results are different and related to recovery, which indirectly affects performance.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

04-11-2007, 09:54 AM	#6
nni Designer Supplements Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,226 Blog Entries: 1	glucosamin/chondrotin should be used regardless. if you have problem, its already too late.
	www.getds.com

04-11-2007, 11:44 AM	#9
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,882 Photos: 10	There was a recent NIH study that showed no effect on physiology wrt arthritis, which would be the only cartilage issue glucosamine would help. It was shown to relieve pain, but that was through mechanisms other than changes to the cartilage. I think there is an equal number of studies for and against it wrt arthritis, far from making it truly beneficial. I think the actual study is posted here somewhere, but I gots to go.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

04-11-2007, 08:01 PM	#18
Big G Gettin' Diesel. Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cols,OH. It sucks. Posts: 1,212 Photos: 1	Jeez! Whodathunkit'd've evolved into that big thing about glucosamine! Anyway... Kudos to the three of you for apparently knowing your stuff. I was disappointed to hear that glutamine is largely a waste of time because I decided to get a bottle along with the vitamins I ordered. It wasn't expensive, but still... why is it a waste of time? Aren't bones, like, 60% glutamine, or something like that? Why would it have no benefit to my body? Also, since we're all on a big supplement thing here, what are your thoughts on my taking Animal Pak instead of the NOW Adam multi' I was taking? And, how about I take Animal Stak 2 with it for hormonal/pump/whatever benefits? ... Why do I feel like I'm throwing meat to sharks right now?
	Goal...... DL:500lb, Sqt:400lb, Bnch:300lb Current.. DL:375lb, Sqt:335lb, Bnch:260lb Weight: 185lb (up 25lb), bf=15%ish Age:35 Training since 11/06 journal

04-11-2007, 03:13 PM	#15
Jodi Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,259 Photos: 1	My guess would be: Multi-Vit Creatine EFA's Protein Cal/Mag

04-12-2007, 03:53 PM	#19
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,882 Photos: 10	A vitamin is a vitamin, just get something time released, preferably in a 2 a day dosage. I think Glutamine is good at keeping the immune system going, but I noticed that once I stopped it, I would get sick. I rarely get sick anyway, so I dropped it. I don't believe it has any direct effect on strength or size.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

04-12-2007, 09:02 PM	#20
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	lmao @ NO2 being one of them. Seriously, I laughed.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode