PWO Shake Recommendations PLEASE. Want high carb, high protein, low sugar, low fat.

Taking CytoGainer at the moment. 580cal, 79carb(6g sugar), 54gprotein, 98%lactose free, 96% fat free(45cal fat). + Tastes Yummy!

Alternatives?

PP
Oats or Oat bran
Cultured Yougurt
Skim Milk
Berries.
Milled Flax seeds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IainDaniel

TERRIBLE ADVICE!
Oats or Oat bran - PROBLEM: Ingestion too slow. Want more rapid insulin spike.
Cultured Yogurt/Skim Milk - PROBLEM: Low net protein utilization, high lactose (sugar) & slow protein digestibility. DOMS drastically reduced for me with CytoGainer (partially digested peptides, whey fractions [for IGF-1], BCAAs etc... v.fast acting!).
Berries - PROBLEM: Simple carbs/sugar.
Milled Flax seeds - PROBLEM: Flax seed oil increases estrogen. link

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Next!

How is it terrible advice. That is a very ignorant statement.

PP or protein Powder Concentrate or Isolate whatever you prefer.

Oats will release an insulin spike. Do some reading on Oats PWO.

Here is some reading on Skim Milk PWO

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Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

Gaahhhh... Milk is good PWO!!! Don't listen to the myths!!

To re-post some other posts I have made:
Quote:
Actually milk is great PWO and it is due to not only an ability to rapidly increase insulin secretion, but also because of the unique combination of protein fractions (both caesin and whey).

And yes, milk will actually increase insulin substantially - you have to remember that insulin release and glycaemic index are not always related.

So, although it has a low GI (that is, it has a slow release of GLUCOSE into the blood - mainly because once the lactose is digested in the intestines, half of the carbohydrate content is galactose, and this needs to be processed to glucose in the liver before it is released into the blood) it actually has a very high Insulin index (II).

Milk has a high II because of the unique combination of amino acids (especially the high content of BCAAs) and glucose/carbohydrates. For some reason (most of which is unknown) these things act synergistically. This is also one of the reasons why whey protein also causes an increase in insulin levels - because of the high content of BCAAs.

But if you think about it logically, having milk reacti like this is, in terms of evolution, a very sensible thing to do.

As an infant/baby, you want to grow - and what better to grow than a good dose of insulin combined with an adequate mix of carbohydrates and protein!

So you have an 'instant' hit of energy and nutrient uptake (caused by the glucose component of the lactose when combined with the whey fraction of the milk protein which then act to cause a marked increase in insulin)... But then you do not want your meal to 'dissapear' from the blood too quickly (you want to provide a continuous stimulus for growth) therefore you add in a slower fraction of glucose (galactose) and a slower, anti-catabolic protein fraction (casein).

Milk does not slow the digestion of whey by any great length and the time frame is hardly relavant to anyone who has ensured that they have had a good pre-workout meal.

The milk contains different suspensions of protein. Casein is one. Whey is another. Just because the casein settles in the stomach doesn't mean the whey does as well - infact the vast majority of the whey fraction continues in the liquid fraction of the meal into the small intestine where it is absorbed without any delay.

If you REALLY did not want to delay the absorption of the whey then you would have to take it on an completely empty stomach/intestines - which means you would have to not eat for about 8 to 12 hrs....

There have also been HEAPS of threads on the topic... Do a search!... But here are a few of them:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=36488 (Post Workout Whey)
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=47740 (Water or Milk?)


Now.... I have been saying that milk is great for PWO for YEARS now... But if you do not believe me... Try to take a look at some of the latest research coming out about optimal PWO nutrition (S. Phillips, Tipton... etc etc)!!

International whey conference This presentation by Dr Phillips states "Bottom Line
SYNTHESIS: WHY = MIX > CAS
BREAKDOWN: CAS = MIX > WHY
OXIDATION: WHY > MIX > CAS
BALANCE: MIX > WHY = CAS
A MIXTURE OF WHEY AND CASEIN MAY PROVIDE AN OPTIMAL BLEND OF PROTEINS TO SUPPORT PROTEIN ACCRETION IN MUSCLE AS A RESULT OF RESISTANCE EXERCISE"

From This t-nation article There is this info "—Research is underway to determine which mix of whey-casein: 100% whey, 75/25, 50/50, 25/75 or 100% casein best improves protein retention after 80% 1RM whole-body resistance exercise. So far (4 subjects), the casein seems to provide a bit higher BCAA and leucine-specific responses in the blood at the 60-minute mark. Watch for protein powder manufacturers to jump all over this research as they design their products next year...."

There is also this article which just states that whey and casein both can help: Quote:
Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Dec;36(12):2073-81.
Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both whey protein and casein after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

Anyway.... To your diet.

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Berries are far from a simple sugar.
Milled Flaxseed are not flaxseed oil.

I am trying to be nice based on your rude response.

You want feedback in future don't be a dipshit about things.

there is nothign wrong with oats post workout. it is a quality addition. per alan aragon, all of the studies done with glycogen replenishment were done on subjects who fasted, unless you are doing that, you dont need 60+ grams of simple carbs post workout.

oats are fine.

ideally i say a 50/50 split for carbs (slow fast post workout).

check out replenish, or at least read the extended write up for it.
aftershock recovery is also a good product.

Ian... Chilll with the dipshit shit. I'm talking from personal experience here. Bodies are different (believe it or not!).

.5 cup oats + 1oz sliced almonds + .5oz dried bing cherries + .5oz dried peaches w/.75cup skim milk & a protein shake = 600 cal 45%carb,35%protein & 20%fat. As a PWO snack it does nothing for me. DOMS kills me and it's an hour or more before I start feeling my blood sugar coming back to normal.

CytoGainer is like getting hit with a stick, plus the relief from DOMS is out of this world. I can't express how different it is for me. I can do the same workout one week apart, with CytoGainer anfd then without it and one week I'm fine and the next i'm in agony for 3days.

I must confess I didn't realize that the PP reference was for Protein Powder (I thought it was a typo - sorry! lol. brain-fart).

Still... In my experience a proper meal doesn't do the job near as well as my CytoGainer shake.

Have you read Nutrient Timing? If not, you should.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big G

CytoGainer is like getting hit with a stick, plus the relief from DOMS is out of this world. I can't express how different it is for me. I can do the same workout one week apart, with CytoGainer anfd then without it and one week I'm fine and the next i'm in agony for 3days.

I must confess I didn't realize that the PP reference was for Protein Powder (I thought it was a typo - sorry! lol. brain-fart).

Still... In my experience a proper meal doesn't do the job near as well as my CytoGainer shake.

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:hmmm:

Why change then?

Just wondered if there were some alternatives. Cytogainer is a bit sweet really. I only switched to it this week and the sweetness is kind-of wearing on me. I don't really like stuff too sweet. I know I said it Tastes Yummy above, and it really isn't bad, but I wouldn't mind trying something else.


PS. IainDaniel - I did sound a bit dip-shit-ish in that post. Sorry about that. Chowing down on a bowl of oats in the changing room is a little impractical though, I think.

If you want low fat or fat free you can just mix whey protein with skim milk. There's nothing wrong with casein post workout as long as you get enough whey. In other words you could use 1 scoop of whey (23 or so grams of protein) with 12 oz of skim milk, which would be like 10 grams of casein. You can always add more if your protein needs are higher.
As for carbs you could use any berries like people just told you. Strawberries, cherries, etc... Any fruits low in fiber like bananas also. Specially if they are really ripe, they are almost pure glucose.

Really ripe bananas... Ew!:barf:

So is everyone here set on real food post workout? I find a shake so convenient. Fruit would probably get all bruised-up knocking around my gym bag. Oats aren't too practical either.

I'd hoped, when I asked for PWO shake recommendations I'd get some PWO shake recommendations. Ah, well.

Hey all, I know this thread is a bit outdated, but I thought I might comment here. Big G...I think IainDaniel's response was a good suggestion. I believe what he was suggesting was to include the oats actually "inside" the shake, not having oats as a separate meal. I know post-workout, I take the oats, berries, whey protein, and the skim-milk, and mix them all together for a nice thick shake. Amazingly (for me), the oats were not really all that hard to get down the hatch

However, if the Cytogainer is working well for you, hit it up man! If it is too sweet, maybe try diluting it by using more liquid (water).
Keep it very real..haha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big G

Really ripe bananas... Ew!:barf:

So is everyone here set on real food post workout? I find a shake so convenient. Fruit would probably get all bruised-up knocking around my gym bag. Oats aren't too practical either.

I'd hoped, when I asked for PWO shake recommendations I'd get some PWO shake recommendations. Ah, well.

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That should be telling you something if everyone is recommending real food.

You got exactly what you asked for, you just don't like the answers.

Wow, I'm glad I didn't see this thread when it came out. I would have gone apeshit on your ass :p

Iain gave the BEST advice you can get regarding PWO and it would have been my recommendation as well.

As far as flaxseed oil causing estrogen........that's such bullshit please have some facts to back it up and not some stupid health website.

what you do post workout is dependant on a variety of things......goals and the type of training output are two of them. So the whole carbs post workout, no carbs post workout, etc.....it all depends on what you are trying to do.

Well i thought the whole nutrient timing thing 4 hours after exercise was to get ur body t absorb as much carbs as possible so simplecarbs PWO folowed by more complex carbs an hour or 90 mins later wud be best for nutrient timing. So if u eat complex carbs PWO then there wud be no need to eat 60-90 min after PWO right? And i still dont buy that casein doesnt slow down digestion of protein..

On a different note. anyone know the calorie content of 30g Maltose?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jodi

Wow, I'm glad I didn't see this thread when it came out. I would have gone apeshit on your ass :p Yeah! I slipped one past you! :p

Iain gave the BEST advice you can get regarding PWO and it would have been my recommendation as well. I know you would've. You don;tbelieve in shakes of any kind, do you?

As far as flaxseed oil causing estrogen........that's such bullshit please have some facts to back it up and not some stupid health website... I've read that in numerous places now. Not just online, but in numerous nutritional books too. Do a google search for "flaxseed oestrogen" and you'll see link after link after link. Surely everyone can't be spouting bullshit. There must be some scientific research that'd cause so many sites to say the same thing. I don't know what you regard as a legitimate/trustworthy source of information, but for so many "stupid health websites" to say the same thing someone must've tested it at some point.

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Also...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P-funk

what you do post workout is dependant on a variety of things......goals and the type of training output are two of them. So the whole carbs post workout, no carbs post workout, etc.....it all depends on what you are trying to do.

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The goal is hypertrophy. I just wanna grow! :flex: My understanding is that immediately after workout I should aim to spike insulin, along with a healthy dose of protein, to shuttle amino acids into the muscles to begin the repair process. Oats apparently will do the job BUT what's wrong with a shake? It has carbs and protein in it. What difference does it make? It's not like I'm living off of shakes. The rest of my day is all all-natural, whole food.

Has anyone here read Nutrient Timing? I swear, the author spent 2-300 pages explaining why a PWO shake (like CytoGainer) is ideal. The dude that recommended I read that book (from my gym) is huge too. He's not 'roid-huge, but pretty damn big for an all-natural guy.

This sounds to me like one of those everyone-has-their-own-opinion deals. All kinds of poeple are drinking shakes and seeing gains. Are we condemming all shakes always, just PWO shakes, or just shakes w/carbs in them?

w/thx,
G.

Jesus Christ. Just drink the cytogainer then...

Whatever!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big G

Also...



The goal is hypertrophy. I just wanna grow! :flex: My understanding is that immediately after workout I should aim to spike insulin, along with a healthy dose of protein, to shuttle amino acids into the muscles to begin the repair process. Oats apparently will do the job BUT what's wrong with a shake? It has carbs and protein in it. What difference does it make? It's not like I'm living off of shakes. The rest of my day is all all-natural, whole food.

Has anyone here read Nutrient Timing? I swear, the author spent 2-300 pages explaining why a PWO shake (like CytoGainer) is ideal. The dude that recommended I read that book (from my gym) is huge too. He's not 'roid-huge, but pretty damn big for an all-natural guy.

This sounds to me like one of those everyone-has-their-own-opinion deals. All kinds of poeple are drinking shakes and seeing gains. Are we condemming all shakes always, just PWO shakes, or just shakes w/carbs in them?

w/thx,
G.

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Actually I've met Dr. Ivy so yeah I know about that book. You apparently have missed the whole point.

We all say PWO shake is important and oats will do the job just fine. There have been several debates about this and the consensus is complex carbs will work just as well as high glycemic carbs.

Read :read:

Items:
Measuring Cup
Spoon
Blender
Measuring Spoons

Ingredients:
Whey Protein
Rolled Oats
Yogurt
Banana

Directions:
Scoop whey protein in blender
Measure yogurt and put in blender
Measure oats and put in blender
Peel banana and put it in the blender
Plug in Blender and press start
Pour and drink.

Whala........PWO shake! :bulb:

:)

Thank you for the indepth instructions on how to mix four things together in a blender! I'm sure there's some complete fucking retard out there that you just really helped. Unfortunately for me I'm at work and there is no blender. And, "No" I can't bring one in. Everyone thinks I'm a freak anyway becuase I take three lunchbreaks compared to their one.

I'm more than happy to agree that a whole food option is ALWAYS better. But since CytoGainer is NO SIMPLE CARBS (i.e. ONLY COMPLEX CARBS) I had hoped it would roll in a close second.

I started this thread in hopes of finding something that would be better than CytoGainer but equally as convenient. I'll gladly make a shake with oats when I'm at home, working out in my garage, during the weekend, but when I'm at work, cramming a hour-long workout into an hour-15min break (with no available blender for ten miles or more) it's just not convenient. Similarly after work, when the office is closed, I'm eating in the changing room (and a blender just won't fit in my gym bag!)

I could eat a banana walking back from the gym. I guess I could even potentially chug down a quick yogurt and protein shake before having a shower, but oats? How am I going to get half a cup of oats down me in the changing room? I could powderize them, I suppose, and just add them to the yogurt/whey mix, then just shake 'em up. D'ya reckon that'd work? It sounds kind-of funky, but I'm willing to try.

Again though, if oats are complex carbs and cytogainer is complex carbs what is there to go apeshit about?

Honestly. I'm not being a dick here. I'm genuinely interested. What's the BIG GIGANTIC difference between complex carbs and complex carbs?

Just mix the shake in before you go to work and keep refrigerated.

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Thank you for the indepth instructions on how to mix four things together in a blender! I'm sure there's some complete fucking retard out there that you just really helped. Unfortunately for me I'm at work and there is no blender. And, "No" I can't bring one in. Everyone thinks I'm a freak anyway becuase I take three lunchbreaks compared to their one.

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Oh come on..........it was all in good fun. Don't be upset. I was just joking around. :)

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IAgain though, if oats are complex carbs and cytogainer is complex carbs what is there to go apeshit about?

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Malto is not a complex carb. And the reason I said I would go apeshit is because I didn't like the way you talked to Iain. It was very very rude!

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Honestly. I'm not being a dick here. I'm genuinely interested. What's the BIG GIGANTIC difference between complex carbs and complex carbs?

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Again.........maltodextrin is not a complex carb. It's a simple carb. Malto is many dextrose molecules put together by hydrogen bonds that are quickly and easily broken down by the stomach. Thus making it dextrose in the stomach. Dextrose = Simple carb. Malto is such a marketing ploy. Yet another disgusting example set forth by the supplement industry and their false advertising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IainDaniel

Just mix the shake in before you go to work and keep refrigerated.

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Yup and this is what most of us do.

yes malto claims to be complex, but it is misleading. complex carbs are usually equted to slower carbs, whereas malso is a faster carbs more characteristics of simple carbs.

OK. Cool. That makes sence.

Anyone got some oats? ;)

w/thx,
G.
PS. Iain - Sorry again about that one. Bad day that day. Plus, I didn't know you from Adam back then. I figured it was the blind leading the blind again and I just lost it for a moment. Hugs? ;)

Scold me if you will, but boy, did you come off as a prick at the beginning of this thread.

Iain 4 President.

You need simple sugar post workout Big G, its my understanding that this is the only time you need simple sugar during training days. I used to have a bottled protein shake with 50g protein and 60g carbs, but I have switched to a cheaper alternative, 2 scoops of whey in water, and three slices of white bread with jam.

WRONG! You don't NEED simple sugar PWO. You need carbs PWO. Ectomorphs/Hardgainers are probably better off with simple sugars but everyone else, I suggest complex.

Ok my mistake I need simple carbs post workout.

Yes, YOU need simple, Big G does not :)