Originally Posted by IainDaniel

TERRIBLE ADVICE!
Oats or Oat bran - PROBLEM: Ingestion too slow. Want more rapid insulin spike.
Cultured Yogurt/Skim Milk - PROBLEM: Low net protein utilization, high lactose (sugar) & slow protein digestibility. DOMS drastically reduced for me with CytoGainer (partially digested peptides, whey fractions [for IGF-1], BCAAs etc... v.fast acting!).
Berries - PROBLEM: Simple carbs/sugar.
Milled Flax seeds - PROBLEM: Flax seed oil increases estrogen. link

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

Gaahhhh... Milk is good PWO!!! Don't listen to the myths!!

To re-post some other posts I have made:
Quote:
Actually milk is great PWO and it is due to not only an ability to rapidly increase insulin secretion, but also because of the unique combination of protein fractions (both caesin and whey).

And yes, milk will actually increase insulin substantially - you have to remember that insulin release and glycaemic index are not always related.

So, although it has a low GI (that is, it has a slow release of GLUCOSE into the blood - mainly because once the lactose is digested in the intestines, half of the carbohydrate content is galactose, and this needs to be processed to glucose in the liver before it is released into the blood) it actually has a very high Insulin index (II).

Milk has a high II because of the unique combination of amino acids (especially the high content of BCAAs) and glucose/carbohydrates. For some reason (most of which is unknown) these things act synergistically. This is also one of the reasons why whey protein also causes an increase in insulin levels - because of the high content of BCAAs.

But if you think about it logically, having milk reacti like this is, in terms of evolution, a very sensible thing to do.

As an infant/baby, you want to grow - and what better to grow than a good dose of insulin combined with an adequate mix of carbohydrates and protein!

So you have an 'instant' hit of energy and nutrient uptake (caused by the glucose component of the lactose when combined with the whey fraction of the milk protein which then act to cause a marked increase in insulin)... But then you do not want your meal to 'dissapear' from the blood too quickly (you want to provide a continuous stimulus for growth) therefore you add in a slower fraction of glucose (galactose) and a slower, anti-catabolic protein fraction (casein).

Milk does not slow the digestion of whey by any great length and the time frame is hardly relavant to anyone who has ensured that they have had a good pre-workout meal.

The milk contains different suspensions of protein. Casein is one. Whey is another. Just because the casein settles in the stomach doesn't mean the whey does as well - infact the vast majority of the whey fraction continues in the liquid fraction of the meal into the small intestine where it is absorbed without any delay.

If you REALLY did not want to delay the absorption of the whey then you would have to take it on an completely empty stomach/intestines - which means you would have to not eat for about 8 to 12 hrs....

There have also been HEAPS of threads on the topic... Do a search!... But here are a few of them:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=36488 (Post Workout Whey) (Post Workout Whey)
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=47740 (Water or Milk?) (Water or Milk?)


Now.... I have been saying that milk is great for PWO for YEARS now... But if you do not believe me... Try to take a look at some of the latest research coming out about optimal PWO nutrition (S. Phillips, Tipton... etc etc)!!

International whey conference This presentation by Dr Phillips states "Bottom Line
SYNTHESIS: WHY = MIX > CAS
BREAKDOWN: CAS = MIX > WHY
OXIDATION: WHY > MIX > CAS
BALANCE: MIX > WHY = CAS
A MIXTURE OF WHEY AND CASEIN MAY PROVIDE AN OPTIMAL BLEND OF PROTEINS TO SUPPORT PROTEIN ACCRETION IN MUSCLE AS A RESULT OF RESISTANCE EXERCISE"

From This t-nation article There is this info "—Research is underway to determine which mix of whey-casein: 100% whey, 75/25, 50/50, 25/75 or 100% casein best improves protein retention after 80% 1RM whole-body resistance exercise. So far (4 subjects), the casein seems to provide a bit higher BCAA and leucine-specific responses in the blood at the 60-minute mark. Watch for protein powder manufacturers to jump all over this research as they design their products next year...."

There is also this article which just states that whey and casein both can help: Quote:
Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Dec;36(12):2073-81.
Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both whey protein and casein after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

Anyway.... To your diet.

Originally Posted by Big G

CytoGainer is like getting hit with a stick, plus the relief from DOMS is out of this world. I can't express how different it is for me. I can do the same workout one week apart, with CytoGainer anfd then without it and one week I'm fine and the next i'm in agony for 3days.

I must confess I didn't realize that the PP reference was for Protein Powder (I thought it was a typo - sorry! lol. brain-fart).

Still... In my experience a proper meal doesn't do the job near as well as my CytoGainer shake.

Originally Posted by Big G

Really ripe bananas... Ew!

So is everyone here set on real food post workout? I find a shake so convenient. Fruit would probably get all bruised-up knocking around my gym bag. Oats aren't too practical either.

I'd hoped, when I asked for PWO shake recommendations I'd get some PWO shake recommendations. Ah, well.

Originally Posted by Jodi

Wow, I'm glad I didn't see this thread when it came out. I would have gone apeshit on your ass Yeah! I slipped one past you!

Iain gave the BEST advice you can get regarding PWO and it would have been my recommendation as well. I know you would've. You don;tbelieve in shakes of any kind, do you?

As far as flaxseed oil causing estrogen........that's such bullshit please have some facts to back it up and not some stupid health website... I've read that in numerous places now. Not just online, but in numerous nutritional books too. Do a google search for "flaxseed oestrogen" and you'll see link after link after link. Surely everyone can't be spouting bullshit. There must be some scientific research that'd cause so many sites to say the same thing. I don't know what you regard as a legitimate/trustworthy source of information, but for so many "stupid health websites" to say the same thing someone must've tested it at some point.

Originally Posted by P-funk

what you do post workout is dependant on a variety of things......goals and the type of training output are two of them. So the whole carbs post workout, no carbs post workout, etc.....it all depends on what you are trying to do.

Originally Posted by Big G

Also...



The goal is hypertrophy. I just wanna grow! My understanding is that immediately after workout I should aim to spike insulin, along with a healthy dose of protein, to shuttle amino acids into the muscles to begin the repair process. Oats apparently will do the job BUT what's wrong with a shake? It has carbs and protein in it. What difference does it make? It's not like I'm living off of shakes. The rest of my day is all all-natural, whole food.

Has anyone here read Nutrient Timing? I swear, the author spent 2-300 pages explaining why a PWO shake (like CytoGainer) is ideal. The dude that recommended I read that book (from my gym) is huge too. He's not 'roid-huge, but pretty damn big for an all-natural guy.

This sounds to me like one of those everyone-has-their-own-opinion deals. All kinds of poeple are drinking shakes and seeing gains. Are we condemming all shakes always, just PWO shakes, or just shakes w/carbs in them?

w/thx,
G.

Originally Posted by IainDaniel

Just mix the shake in before you go to work and keep refrigerated.