Vpx's New Meltdown...

gopro · 10-22-2007, 12:42 PM

Hello everyone! Let me get straight to the point...

Several weeks ago VPX Sports asked me if I would be willing to test out a soon-to-be released fat burner called Meltdown (which has nothing in common with their old version). I was called into a meeting to discuss the technology behind the product and the results they had been getting thus far. The company CEO, Jack Owoc put about two years into this formula, which contains several ingedients that have never been available before in these forms. He asked that I use it personally as well as test it out with a few of my clients. I agreed, but told him that I would be 100% honest about the results and would not sugar coat or hype anything that did not produce what it is supposed to.

I am still gathering some of the data from my clients, which I will post up here by tomorrow, but I can tell you that VPX has something special here. I have used every fat burner ever put out on the market, and this one has some unique properties that no other product has shown. In other words, this is not your typical fat burner.

That said, I need you guys to know that CURRENTLY I am not an employee of VPX. I work independently with several supplement companies in different aspects, which yes, I get paid for. This could change, and if it does, I will certainly let you know.

So, I am representing VPX's Meltdown product here specifically (not their entire line). I have seen that this is the real deal and that everything I was told it would do, it does. As a respected writer and trainer in this industry I can promise you that I would not stand behind a product unless I feel that it works (no matter what I am offered to do so).

I will be here to answer questions about the product to the best of my ability and to help others get the most out of it when it becomes available to the public shortly. I will also post up more about it as I gather my info.

Thank you for listening!

**IainDaniel** · 10-22-2007, 12:49 PM

So what is in it?

soxmuscle · 10-22-2007, 02:23 PM

Red Line in capsule form barely did anything for me, so I'm hesitant to shell out Cell Tech esque cash figures for a company by VPX. However, I'll take your word for it and might give it a go when it becomes available. I'll be staying tuned.

PreMier · 10-22-2007, 03:42 PM

are you in a caloric defecit? or bulk, or recomp?

**nni** · 10-22-2007, 04:34 PM

ingredients?

gopro · 10-22-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

are you in a caloric defecit? or bulk, or recomp?

Simply maintaning really. Not looking to bulk, which I never do anymore, or lose. Just looking to add quality muscle while keeping my bodyfat at about 8%

(Although it is lower now after 3 weeks on Meltdown)

gopro · 10-22-2007, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Red Line in capsule form barely did anything for me, so I'm hesitant to shell out Cell Tech esque cash figures for a company by VPX. However, I'll take your word for it and might give it a go when it becomes available. I'll be staying tuned.

I agree...Redline caps are not even close to the liquid form. However, these caps are STRONG! That said, I am trying to convince VPX to release a liquid version as well (like the old Clenbutrx).

**nni** · 10-22-2007, 10:11 PM

looks like 3 forms of yohimbe (Yohimbine HCl, 11-hydroxy Yohimbine, alpha-Yohimbine)
methyl synephrine
caffeine
2 forms of PEA one a methyl (R-ß-M-PEA (R-ß-Methylphenylethylamine) and n-Methyl-ß-PEA (n-Methyl-ß-Phenylethylamine)
methyl hordenine
pure cAMP
methyl TTA, and one other thing that i dont know what it is.

so lots of methyls of common ingredients.

soxmuscle · 10-23-2007, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I agree...Redline caps are not even close to the liquid form. However, these caps are STRONG! That said, I am trying to convince VPX to release a liquid version as well (like the old Clenbutrx).

VPX is dumb. If they sold the liquid form RedLine at a reasonable price (30 rack, $30 dollars) they'd have the highest selling product on the market.

Delusional · 10-23-2007, 09:15 AM

yeah i like the redline drink they currently have out, but its kind of pricey to me. if it was cheaper itd help. i would rather have a new version in liquid really

PreMier · 10-23-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Simply maintaning really. Not looking to bulk, which I never do anymore, or lose. Just looking to add quality muscle while keeping my bodyfat at about 8%

(Although it is lower now after 3 weeks on Meltdown)

thats what i wanted to hear

PreMier · 10-23-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

looks like 3 forms of yohimbe (Yohimbine HCl, 11-hydroxy Yohimbine, alpha-Yohimbine)
methyl synephrine
caffeine
2 forms of PEA one a methyl (R-ß-M-PEA (R-ß-Methylphenylethylamine) and n-Methyl-ß-PEA (n-Methyl-ß-Phenylethylamine)
methyl hordenine
pure cAMP
methyl TTA, and one other thing that i dont know what it is.

so lots of methyls of common ingredients.

whats your conclusion/opinion?

gopro · 10-23-2007, 12:22 PM

I would like to talk about Meltdown using the following criteria on a scale of 1-10 as I see it thus far in regards to myself. As I gather data from my clients (and others), I will post that as well...

-Fat Burning Ability...9
-Energy Enhancement...8
-Mood Affects...10
-Appetite Suppressing Capability...9
-Side Effects...9 (meaning I had little if any)

As far as fat burning goes I dropped from a measurement of 8.3% to 7% in 4 weeks with no change in diet, cardio, or training. I notice the greatest loss in my quads and waist, as I see greater separation between each muscle in my thigh and all of my pants are fitting more loosely.

Meltdown is not being marketed as an "Energy Enhancer," as Redline has filled that position. However, that does not mean that MD will not give you more energy...it is just a different kind of energy. Instead of making you "bounce off the walls" it instead just increases your clarity, focus and drive to do more work. It makes you want to be more productive and allows for far better concentration. One employee at VPX actually mentioned to me that it helps him see more clearly and vividly (especially colors).

More to come....

gopro · 10-23-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

VPX is dumb. If they sold the liquid form RedLine at a reasonable price (30 rack, $30 dollars) they'd have the highest selling product on the market.

I actually find this a funny comment...."VPX is dumb!" I wish I was as dumb as them! They are growing so fast they have had to add 2 new buildings in the past year, the latest one about 90,000 sq feet! Redline is now its own brand and alone can support and entirely new supplement company!

Along with MT and BSN, VPX is the biggest player in the industry!

I was incredibly impressed with what they have done since I left them in 2005.

**nni** · 10-23-2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

whats your conclusion/opinion?

honestly my immediate thought was its a mishmash of ingredients from other products like avant's HEAT, DS' basic cuts and melting point just changed to methyls. i dont know that making them methylated will make it that much better, so i will reserve judgement to see if any studies or paperwork is provided. but methyl TTA, i mean TTA is a product that some people get severe cramps from, so if you are methylating it which in theory makes it effects greater (which i doubt) then that would make the sides greater. i dont know, more question marks then exclamation points.

PreMier · 10-23-2007, 03:14 PM

i was thinking the same thing after reading ingredients/what you wrote. not that the product wont be good, but it wont be anything thats revolutionary, because there are similar ones on the market.

**IainDaniel** · 10-23-2007, 03:25 PM

Sulfur-substituted and alpha-methylated fatty acids as peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor activators.Larsen LN, Granlund L, Holmeide AK, Skattebøl L, Nebb HI, Bremer J.
Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, Department of Biochemistry, University of Oslo, Norway. l.n.larsen@medisin.uio.no

FA with varying chain lengths and an alpha-methyl group and/or a sulfur in the beta-position were tested as peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR)alpha, -delta(beta), and -gamma ligands by transient transfection in COS-1 cells using chimeric receptor expression plasmids, containing cDNAs encoding the ligand-binding domain of PPARalpha, -delta, and -gamma. For PPARalpha, an increasing activation was found with increasing chain length of the sulfur-substituted FA up to C14-S acetic acid (tetradecylthioacetic acid = TTA). The derivatives were poor, and nonsignificant, activators of PPARdelta. For PPARgamma, activation increased with increasing chain length up to C16-S acetic acid. A methyl group was introduced in the alpha-position of palmitic acid, TTA, EPA, DHA, cis9,trans11 CLA, and trans10,cis12 CLA. An increased activation of PPARalpha was obtained for the alpha-methyl derivatives compared with the unmethylated FA. This increase also resulted in increased expression of the two PPARalpha target genes acyl-CoA oxidase and liver FA-binding protein for alpha-methyl TTA, alpha-methyl EPA, and alpha-methyl DHA. Decreased or altered metabolism of these derivatives in the cells cannot be excluded. In conclusion, saturated FA with sulfur in the beta-position and increasing carbon chain length from C9-S acetic acid to C14-S acetic acid have increasing effects as activators of PPARalpha and -gamma in transfection assays. Furthermore, alpha-methyl FA derivatives of a saturated natural FA (palmitic acid), a sulfur-substituted FA (TTA), and PUFA (EPA, DHA, c9,t11 CLA, and t10,c12 CLA) are stronger PPARalpha activators than the unmethylated compounds.

gopro · 10-23-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

i was thinking the same thing after reading ingredients/what you wrote. not that the product wont be good, but it wont be anything thats revolutionary, because there are similar ones on the market.

Mehylating some of the ingredients has made them WAY MORE BIOAVAILABLE. VPX has been doing extensive research and testing on this stuff...doing blood work on Synephrine vs. M-Synephrine, for example...and the results regarding uptake is what let them to synthesizing these specific forms. This product was not "thrown together" but is the result of 2 straight years of work. Trust me, I looked through the piles of studies they were working from.

Hey, but I expected some of you to be hesitant, or even hateful of anything from VPX...it is nothing new. However, all you have to do is try the stuff and you will know it works. If it didn't, I would not be doing this for them. I could easily spend my time doing other things that would make me more money than they are paying me, LOL.

Anyway, I will have more on MD later.

**IainDaniel** · 10-23-2007, 03:54 PM

Get me a sample and I will try it

gopro · 10-23-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

i was thinking the same thing after reading ingredients/what you wrote. not that the product wont be good, but it wont be anything thats revolutionary, because there are similar ones on the market.

There are products with some "similar" looking ingredients, but they are nothing like this one....trust me.

PreMier · 10-23-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hey, but I expected some of you to be hesitant, or even hateful of anything from VPX...it is nothing new. However, all you have to do is try the stuff and you will know it works. If it didn't, I would not be doing this for them. I could easily spend my time doing other things that would make me more money than they are paying me, LOL.

im more hesitant than hateful.. im trying to be subjective is all.

soxmuscle · 10-23-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I actually find this a funny comment...."VPX is dumb!" I wish I was as dumb as them! They are growing so fast they have had to add 2 new buildings in the past year, the latest one about 90,000 sq feet! Redline is now its own brand and alone can support and entirely new supplement company!

Along with MT and BSN, VPX is the biggest player in the industry!

I was incredibly impressed with what they have done since I left them in 2005.

I'm extremely impressed with VPX, Cell-Tech, and BSN. But it's in that, Johnny Damon esque way. Sure they are one of the fastest growing companies in the industry, but they've done so in a slimy way in which they're sole priority is to earn that all-mighty dollar.

Again, I think they're foolish not to sell their products at a more reasonable price, perhaps dumb wasn't the right word.

gopro · 10-23-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

im more hesitant than hateful.. im trying to be subjective is all.

Understood. And I am not here to do anything but talk about the product. I am not representing VPX as a whole, but simply Meltdown. So far I am very impressed...impressed with the formula, the research they have put in, the extent they have tested and retested, and with the results I have so far seen with the product.

gopro · 10-23-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

I'm extremely impressed with VPX, Cell-Tech, and BSN. But it's in that, Johnny Damon esque way. Sure they are one of the fastest growing companies in the industry, but they've done so in a slimy way in which they're sole priority is to earn that all-mighty dollar.

Again, I think they're foolish not to sell their products at a more reasonable price, perhaps dumb wasn't the right word.

I do not think VPX is slimy. Actually, I think they have really matured as a company. I had a long discussion about pricing with the owner while I was there and he showed me receipts of how much they pay for their raws, as well as how much they put into in house equipment and testing. They are trying to produce top notch products, which costs them alot to make.

vortrit · 10-23-2007, 05:52 PM

I like redline. I don't think the price is too bad if you find it at the right place for what it is. I generally don't do fat burners, but I may give it a try.

Triple Threat · 10-23-2007, 06:13 PM

Is this available now and if not, when will it be?

**nni** · 10-23-2007, 08:06 PM

id love to see the paperwork. methyls do not necessarily mean better, so i am definetely a skeptic. i may give a shot though if i feel it has merit.

gopro · 10-23-2007, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

id love to see the paperwork. methyls do not necessarily mean better, so i am definetely a skeptic. i may give a shot though if i feel it has merit.

Well, I doubt they will be publicly releasing all of the paperwork, but in many cases methylation DOES increase oral availability...and according to the work VPX did, it is also true in this case.

The funny thing is that VPX originally made the formula from non-methyl compounds, but found it was working quite poorly in testing. They did not want to jack up the mg., but rather tried to figure out how to make each ingedient more absorbable. They accomplished this task.

gopro · 10-23-2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

Is this available now and if not, when will it be?

I heard today it will be ready in 2-4 weeks...which is good because I am working with them to try and finalize the proper dosing per capsule and overall dosing. This extra time will allow me to gather more client data.

gopro · 10-24-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I would like to talk about Meltdown using the following criteria on a scale of 1-10 as I see it thus far in regards to myself. As I gather data from my clients (and others), I will post that as well...

-Fat Burning Ability...9
-Energy Enhancement...8
-Mood Affects...10
-Appetite Suppressing Capability...9
-Side Effects...9 (meaning I had little if any)

As far as fat burning goes I dropped from a measurement of 8.3% to 7% in 4 weeks with no change in diet, cardio, or training. I notice the greatest loss in my quads and waist, as I see greater separation between each muscle in my thigh and all of my pants are fitting more loosely.

Meltdown is not being marketed as an "Energy Enhancer," as Redline has filled that position. However, that does not mean that MD will not give you more energy...it is just a different kind of energy. Instead of making you "bounce off the walls" it instead just increases your clarity, focus and drive to do more work. It makes you want to be more productive and allows for far better concentration. One employee at VPX actually mentioned to me that it helps him see more clearly and vividly (especially colors).

More to come....

Continuing from my above post...

Continuing from my above post, I will now move onto the "mood effects" I have seen with MD. This is perhaps the most novel aspect of this product for me. Fat burners have always made me feel everything from depressed to irritable to even angry (Redline makes me want to beat up old ladies...LOL). However, MD actually makes me happy! Especially the first dose of the day. Literally 30-45 minutes after I take it I start to become very talkative...I begin joking around more...and I have a general feeling of well being. Even if something has me a bit down I seem to get over it and just move on. I call MD my "happy pills" now, LOL!

10-22-2007, 12:42 PM	#1
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,893	Vpx's New Meltdown... Hello everyone! Let me get straight to the point... Several weeks ago VPX Sports asked me if I would be willing to test out a soon-to-be released fat burner called Meltdown (which has nothing in common with their old version). I was called into a meeting to discuss the technology behind the product and the results they had been getting thus far. The company CEO, Jack Owoc put about two years into this formula, which contains several ingedients that have never been available before in these forms. He asked that I use it personally as well as test it out with a few of my clients. I agreed, but told him that I would be 100% honest about the results and would not sugar coat or hype anything that did not produce what it is supposed to. I am still gathering some of the data from my clients, which I will post up here by tomorrow, but I can tell you that VPX has something special here. I have used every fat burner ever put out on the market, and this one has some unique properties that no other product has shown. In other words, this is not your typical fat burner. That said, I need you guys to know that CURRENTLY I am not an employee of VPX. I work independently with several supplement companies in different aspects, which yes, I get paid for. This could change, and if it does, I will certainly let you know. So, I am representing VPX's Meltdown product here specifically (not their entire line). I have seen that this is the real deal and that everything I was told it would do, it does. As a respected writer and trainer in this industry I can promise you that I would not stand behind a product unless I feel that it works (no matter what I am offered to do so). I will be here to answer questions about the product to the best of my ability and to help others get the most out of it when it becomes available to the public shortly. I will also post up more about it as I gather my info. Thank you for listening! All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

10-22-2007, 12:49 PM	#2
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 17,548	So what is in it? Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Michael Jordan

10-22-2007, 02:23 PM	#3
soxmuscle do work son Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: I will eat your face Posts: 10,045 Photos: 10	Red Line in capsule form barely did anything for me, so I'm hesitant to shell out Cell Tech esque cash figures for a company by VPX. However, I'll take your word for it and might give it a go when it becomes available. I'll be staying tuned. Age: 20 \| Height: 5'7" \| Weight: 150 lbs \| Penis: 12 inches

10-22-2007, 03:42 PM	#4
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,962 Photos: 2	are you in a caloric defecit? or bulk, or recomp? P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

10-22-2007, 04:34 PM	#5
nni Driven Sports Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: . Posts: 1,666	ingredients? www.getds.com www.drivensports.co.uk

10-22-2007, 10:11 PM	#8
nni Driven Sports Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: . Posts: 1,666	looks like 3 forms of yohimbe (Yohimbine HCl, 11-hydroxy Yohimbine, alpha-Yohimbine) methyl synephrine caffeine 2 forms of PEA one a methyl (R-ß-M-PEA (R-ß-Methylphenylethylamine) and n-Methyl-ß-PEA (n-Methyl-ß-Phenylethylamine) methyl hordenine pure cAMP methyl TTA, and one other thing that i dont know what it is. so lots of methyls of common ingredients. www.getds.com www.drivensports.co.uk

10-23-2007, 09:15 AM	#10
Delusional little guy with big hopes Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 547	yeah i like the redline drink they currently have out, but its kind of pricey to me. if it was cheaper itd help. i would rather have a new version in liquid really Gayspace www.taylorsnutrition.com

10-23-2007, 12:22 PM	#13
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,893	I would like to talk about Meltdown using the following criteria on a scale of 1-10 as I see it thus far in regards to myself. As I gather data from my clients (and others), I will post that as well... -Fat Burning Ability...9 -Energy Enhancement...8 -Mood Affects...10 -Appetite Suppressing Capability...9 -Side Effects...9 (meaning I had little if any) As far as fat burning goes I dropped from a measurement of 8.3% to 7% in 4 weeks with no change in diet, cardio, or training. I notice the greatest loss in my quads and waist, as I see greater separation between each muscle in my thigh and all of my pants are fitting more loosely. Meltdown is not being marketed as an "Energy Enhancer," as Redline has filled that position. However, that does not mean that MD will not give you more energy...it is just a different kind of energy. Instead of making you "bounce off the walls" it instead just increases your clarity, focus and drive to do more work. It makes you want to be more productive and allows for far better concentration. One employee at VPX actually mentioned to me that it helps him see more clearly and vividly (especially colors). More to come.... All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

10-23-2007, 03:14 PM	#16
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,962 Photos: 2	i was thinking the same thing after reading ingredients/what you wrote. not that the product wont be good, but it wont be anything thats revolutionary, because there are similar ones on the market. P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

10-23-2007, 03:25 PM	#17
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 17,548	Sulfur-substituted and alpha-methylated fatty acids as peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor activators.Larsen LN, Granlund L, Holmeide AK, Skattebøl L, Nebb HI, Bremer J. Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, Department of Biochemistry, University of Oslo, Norway. l.n.larsen@medisin.uio.no FA with varying chain lengths and an alpha-methyl group and/or a sulfur in the beta-position were tested as peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR)alpha, -delta(beta), and -gamma ligands by transient transfection in COS-1 cells using chimeric receptor expression plasmids, containing cDNAs encoding the ligand-binding domain of PPARalpha, -delta, and -gamma. For PPARalpha, an increasing activation was found with increasing chain length of the sulfur-substituted FA up to C14-S acetic acid (tetradecylthioacetic acid = TTA). The derivatives were poor, and nonsignificant, activators of PPARdelta. For PPARgamma, activation increased with increasing chain length up to C16-S acetic acid. A methyl group was introduced in the alpha-position of palmitic acid, TTA, EPA, DHA, cis9,trans11 CLA, and trans10,cis12 CLA. An increased activation of PPARalpha was obtained for the alpha-methyl derivatives compared with the unmethylated FA. This increase also resulted in increased expression of the two PPARalpha target genes acyl-CoA oxidase and liver FA-binding protein for alpha-methyl TTA, alpha-methyl EPA, and alpha-methyl DHA. Decreased or altered metabolism of these derivatives in the cells cannot be excluded. In conclusion, saturated FA with sulfur in the beta-position and increasing carbon chain length from C9-S acetic acid to C14-S acetic acid have increasing effects as activators of PPARalpha and -gamma in transfection assays. Furthermore, alpha-methyl FA derivatives of a saturated natural FA (palmitic acid), a sulfur-substituted FA (TTA), and PUFA (EPA, DHA, c9,t11 CLA, and t10,c12 CLA) are stronger PPARalpha activators than the unmethylated compounds. Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Michael Jordan

10-23-2007, 03:54 PM	#19
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 17,548	Get me a sample and I will try it Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Michael Jordan

10-23-2007, 05:52 PM	#25
vortrit Bulk. Cut. Repeat. Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Missouri, USA Posts: 2,647 Photos: 5	I like redline. I don't think the price is too bad if you find it at the right place for what it is. I generally don't do fat burners, but I may give it a try. My Journal!

10-23-2007, 06:13 PM	#26
Triple Threat End of the world Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lost Posts: 10,444 Photos: 6	Is this available now and if not, when will it be?

10-23-2007, 08:06 PM	#27
nni Driven Sports Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: . Posts: 1,666	id love to see the paperwork. methyls do not necessarily mean better, so i am definetely a skeptic. i may give a shot though if i feel it has merit. www.getds.com www.drivensports.co.uk

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