Thread: HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients

Not really, but where was it established that HMB does nothing on it's own? My take on HMB has always been it's just not cost effective to use for most people, e.g. it's very expensive to produce and a high amount is needed for anabolic effects.

At Large Nutrition's owner has stated on numerous occasions that HMB doesn't do anything on it's own, thus why he doesn't sell HMB by itself.

rather than continuing to post slanderous remarks like you just did, why don't you do some research yourself and report back here, thus be helpful and constructive here rather than an ass.

...that's my point.

All the research points out that HMB is an overpriced, unnecessary supplement regardless of what it's combined with.

maybe, but can't you say the same about a lot of supplements, how many are really necessary?

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

At Large Nutrition's owner has stated on numerous occasions that HMB doesn't do anything on it's own, thus why he doesn't sell HMB by itself.

Originally Posted by Prince

rather than continuing to post slanderous remarks like you just did, why don't you do some research yourself and report back here, thus be helpful and constructive here rather than an ass.

Actually, this is just a statement of fact. Slander, like libel, is a form of defamation - a falsehood that causes harm to the individual. Stating a truth, harmful or not, is not defamation: Mr. Mason has suggested that the HMB may have no effect on its own - in fact, it is why At Large does not sell HMB on its own:

Originally Posted by chris mason

One point being sorely missed by the "twits" is that HMB is part of a total formula which makes said formula better. As someone who formulates products, I think it incumbent upon me to create the best product I can within reasonable cost parameters. That is EXACTLY why I included HMB. You will note that I do not offer HMB by itself.

First, some background: nni had earlier posted a brief analysis of some of the articles Chris Mason posted up in support of HMB's inclusion in Results:

Originally Posted by nni

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result

Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences.

Effects of six weeks of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbu...[J Strength Cond Res. 2007] - PubMed Result

HMB and HMBCr were concluded to have no ergogenic effect on muscular strength and endurance, leg power, or anthropometry when taken orally by highly trained male athletes over 6 weeks.

Originally Posted by chris mason

I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.

Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product.

<snip>

It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced.

Chris Mason's argument hinges upon his assertion that HMB works differently - better - when combined with the other ingredients in his product (80g of sugar, 5g creatine monohydrate, 3.5g beta alanine, 3g HMB) than HMB does alone.

This is what is called an interaction. Chris Mason is suggesting that HMB may work by itself, or it may not - but that when combined with the other ingredients in Results, it adds value.

For example, suppose the following:
3g of HMB on its own increases some performance metric by A%
(where A is greater than or equal to zero)

80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A increase said metric by B%
(where B is greater than zero, without a doubt. Creatine's worth has been established, creatine does indeed work better with dextrose, B-A has measureable benefit)

Chris Mason's assertion is that the combination of 80g dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A, when consumed with 3g of HMB, increases the performance metric by something larger than (A+B)%

Note that this is what "positive interaction" means.

The problem with this assertion is that there is no known mechanism through which this synergy could exist:

Originally Posted by nni

the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs. there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.

Originally Posted by chris mason

...whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies. I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.
Chris

Summarizing, Chris Mason believes that HMB, even if it has no effect on its own in trained athletes, has a positive effect on these individuals when consumed as part of the Results cocktail. Problem is, there is no scientific evidence that this is possible.

From what I've read, there are exactly two possibilities here:

1. HMB has little or no ergogenic benefit to trained athletes, and therefore adds no value when 3 grams of it are consumed with 80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A
2. HMB has a positive effect on these individuals on its own, and this value is additive upon the ergogenic benefits of consuming 80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A

Chris is suggesting a third possibility:

3. Even if HMB is of little or no benefit to trained athletes, it adds value when 3g of HMB are consumed with 80g of dextrose, 5g of creatine and 3.5g of B-A.


There is no evidence of this. The mechanisms through which this could happen don't exist. This was brought up by nni:

Originally Posted by nni

im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc...

Mr. Mason responded that there is evidence of HMB's additive effect with the dextrose, creatine and B-A:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Oh, and I forgot to mention you assertation about no research showing BA and creatine, or HMB and creatine having additive effects exists is wrong. There IS research which shows exactly that.

If HMB has an effect, its effect WOULD be additive since there is no known mechanism through which its effect could be interactive with dextrose, creatine and B-A, a point brought up by nni earlier and which is borne out in the research.

So it all comes down to this:

• Either HMB has an effect that is good enough ON ITS OWN to be worth being the most expensive part of Results,
• or it doesn't.

Discuss...

Originally Posted by Prince

maybe, but can't you say the same about a lot of supplements, how many are really necessary?

Creatine is necessary. Creatine taken with dextrose post-workout is necessary. HMB and Beta alanine (especially in the small dose that Results has to offer) aren't necessary, but they can be jammed down peoples throats and made to look like a "new, revolutionary" supplement simply because not many people know much about either of the two.

It should also be noted that this is a horrible point. Just because there are a plethora of bad/unnecessary supplements, At Large Nutrition should be left unaccountable?

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

It should also be noted that this is a horrible point. Just because there are a plethora of bad/unnecessary supplements, At Large Nutrition should be left unaccountable?

are they breaking a law? if what they are doing is so bad in your opinion don't buy their products, and report them to the FDA for false claims, just be sure you report every other supplement company along with them.

Originally Posted by Built

So it all comes down to this:

• Either HMB has an effect that is good enough ON ITS OWN to be worth being the most expensive part of Results,
• or it doesn't.

Discuss...

Great post, Built.

I think we all know the answer here

Originally Posted by Prince

are they breaking a law? if what they are doing is so bad in your opinion don't buy their products, and report them to the FDA for false claims, just be sure you report every other supplement company along with them.

I could tell a girl my semen would make her tits bigger and end up getting a lot more action because of it. Not only is that wrong though, it's downright sickening IMO. I understand the Supplement industry is a complete quackery of a business, but I certainly don't agree with it which is why I've been so outspoken about some of these fraud companies such as ALN, Muscle Tech and BSN.

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Great post, Built.

I think we all know the answer here

then why are we discussing it?

check out the claims being about this product:
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - Maximize Natural Testosterone Levels

I don't know of any real world studies performed to support them.

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Creatine is necessary.

It is? Since when? It's not any more necessary than steriods are. If you want to get a benefit from it, sure, take it. But it is not necessary to lifting weights and I'm sure there are many people that don't take it. I just recently started taking it again after not taking it for several years.

I don't think he's going to be interested in discussing it because deep down, I think he knows what the deal is. Nobody is that stupid. There was a time when cigarette executives denied that smoking was bad for you, this is sort of the same deal. They know, but won't admit it.

FWIW, I used HMB about 6 yrs ago at high doses. To me it done a great job. I seemed to retain more lean muscle when on it and looked better overall. But like Prince said for the money and the dose I was taking, it was not beneficial to me for the money I was spending. But to say it does not work I don't think is totally true. And I was in my late 30's at the time so maybe that had something to do with it as well.

I guess we could start discussing the claims that almost every company uses to sell and market their products, whether it be toothpaste that supposedly whitens teeth, to motor oil that makes your engine last longer, if you believe it buy it, if not as a consumer you hold the ultimate power to not buy a product.

Originally Posted by Prince

Not really, but where was it established that HMB does nothing on it's own?

I agree..........for everyone knocking it, lets see some studies that show this?

Advertising is general is very powerful.

Originally Posted by dg806

FWIW, I used HMB about 6 yrs ago at high doses. To me it done a great job.

dg what do you define as 'high doses'? I am always interested in real world experiences.

Originally Posted by Prince

then why are we discussing it?

check out the claims being about this product:
Anabolic-Matrix Rx - Maximize Natural Testosterone Levels

I don't know of any real world studies performed to support them.

Well, to prove a point of course.

Anabolic-Matrix Rxâ„¢ contains the highest quality herbal extracts and ingredients available. The Tribulus Terrestris in our formula contains a minimum of 20% Protodioscin, the active ingredient that raises LH (Leutenizing Hormone) levels. Most Tribulus based supplements on the market do not contain a high quality Tribulus extract and will do absolutely nothing!

Our formula is all natural and completely unique combining high amounts of Tribulus Terrestris (40% extract), Tongkat Ali (20:1 extract), Diindolemethane, 5,7-Dihydroxyflavone, Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and Bioperine®, and has been shown to naturally increase Testosterone levels up to 150%!

These are the claims made by you and your company, Prince. I believe that you guys used the highest quality herbal extracts/ingredients available. I believe that your Tribulus Terrestris formula contains a minimum of 20% Protodioscin.. Sure, you sugar coat things, but that's not what frustrates me.

Make outrageous claims and I'm sure I'd be on your ass as much as I am on ALN's

Originally Posted by dg806

It is? Since when? It's not any more necessary than steriods are. If you want to get a benefit from it, sure, take it. But it is not necessary to lifting weights and I'm sure there are many people that don't take it. I just recently started taking it again after not taking it for several years.

By that logic, no supplements are necessary.

I truly believe without Glucosamine, my shoulder would still be healing right now.

I truly believe the reason I haven't been sick over the last 4-5 years (outside of a common cold) is because of the multi-vitamins I take.

etc.

Creatine is a proven supplement. HMB has been proven to be ineffective unless taken in high doses as you mention later on in this thread.

Apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by TexanTA1996

I don't think he's going to be interested in discussing it because deep down, I think he knows what the deal is. Nobody is that stupid. There was a time when cigarette executives denied that smoking was bad for you, this is sort of the same deal. They know, but won't admit it.

Like I said, the supplement industry is a complete scam of a business. A quackery business if you will. People are that stupid, it's unfortunate.

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

Like I said, the supplement industry is a complete scam of a business. A quackery business if you will. People are that stupid, it's unfortunate.

I completely agree. All these expensive supplements exist because the world is full of idiots that will buy them. Sponsorship is the second part. Give it to a bunch of people who are using steroids and you convince that same population of stupid people that this overpriced product is what caused their physique or strength, they buy it hook line and sinker.

Getting back to the discussion - I personally have no problem with a supplement being sold without strong evidence of its efficacy. This does not mean I will PURCHASE it, but if there is a demand for a product with only anecdotal evidence of efficacy - ie that has not tested well clinically - as long as the marketing claims stick to the facts, I'm cool.

For example, the test booster mentioned above: trib has never been shown to increase test levels in humans. This does not mean it doesn't - merely that there is no clinical evidence to the contrary. This is not the case with DHEA, which HAS been shown to increase test. There are also many plant substances which have been shown to inhibit aromatase, further increasing the available pool of free testosterone by preventing a little more of it from aromatizing into estrogen. Furthermore, increasing endogenous levels from baseline to baseline plus a half is not a far-fetched claim. The mechanisms are there within at least some of the ingredients in this product, and the addition of tribulus - a substance that at least anecdotally increases libido in older man, and which at the very least is safe when consumed in these amounts - does not add much to the overall cost of the product.

Back to the discussion.

No I was just saying it was not necessary.
Sure I think it works, but you don't have to have it.

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

By that logic, no supplements are necessary.

I truly believe without Glucosamine, my shoulder would still be healing right now.

I truly believe the reason I haven't been sick over the last 4-5 years (outside of a common cold) is because of the multi-vitamins I take.

etc.

Creatine is a proven supplement. HMB has been proven to be ineffective unless taken in high doses as you mention later on in this thread.

Apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by jchappj

dg what do you define as 'high doses'? I am always interested in real world experiences.

I think I had gotten up to around 9g per day

I never said HMB does not work alone. I said that I do not sell it as a singular product.

Next, for anyone to say all of the studies show HMB is not effective absolutely proves that individual should be ignored as they are making statements which have no basis in reality or fact.

Built, you too speak out of your ass rather often and try to hide behind the guise of "science" when doing so. There ARE studies which show HMB and creatine to have additive effects. In fact, Dr. Volek, who you claim to so love, was involved in one such study.

Originally Posted by chris mason

I never said HMB does not work alone. I said that I do not sell it as a singular product.

You said that it may or it may not - that you would agree to disagree on that point - but that it works in combination with the other ingredients in your product.

This isn't the same as saying its effect is additive - this is saying its effect is INTERACTIVE.

Originally Posted by chris mason

Next, for anyone to say all of the studies show HMB is not effective absolutely proves that individual should be ignored as they are making statements which have no basis in reality or fact.

Built, you too speak out of your ass rather often and try to hide behind the guise of "science" when doing so. There ARE studies which show HMB and creatine to have additive effects. In fact, Dr. Volek, who you claim to so love, was involved in one such study.

Can you stop for just a moment and examine what you just said to me, Chris?

You said Volek supports that the effect of HMB with creatine is ADDITIVE.

I agree 100%. Read everything I posted in this thread, carefully this time.

Volek says ADDITIVE.
I say ADDITIVE.

You suggested that even if it didn't work by itself (and you feel that it does, I'll give you that), it works IN COMBINATION with creatine, dextrose and B-A.

That's not an ADDITIVE effect. That's an INTERACTIVE effect.

Do you see the difference now?

You present things so clearly, Built. You should look into teaching kin-dee-garden...