HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients

chris mason · 05-28-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

You said that it may or it may not - that you would agree to disagree on that point - but that it works in combination with the other ingredients in your product.

This isn't the same as saying its effect is additive - this is saying its effect is INTERACTIVE.

Can you stop for just a moment and examine what you just said to me, Chris?

You said Volek supports that the effect of HMB with creatine is ADDITIVE.

I agree 100%. Read everything I posted in this thread, carefully this time.

Volek says ADDITIVE.
I say ADDITIVE.

You suggested that even if it didn't work by itself (and you feel that it does, I'll give you that), it works IN COMBINATION with creatine, dextrose and B-A.

That's not an ADDITIVE effect. That's an INTERACTIVE effect.

Do you see the difference now?

Built, I said what I said based upon the fact the individual, much like you (not necessarily in this thread), was making statements based upon presumptions.

I believe HMB to have an additive effect and POSSIBLY an interactive one in RESULTS. I believe HMB works on its own, but I am not interested in selling it by itself at this time.

chris mason · 05-28-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Thanks Sox.

I taught Algebra, Calculus and Statistics for a long time - I'm used to explaining nuances to people who are having a hard time grasping logical concepts.

Lol, you are also evidently used to being overly confident in your position on matters. If you truly had a scientific mind you would not make the arguments that you do.

**Built** · 05-28-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

I believe HMB to have an additive effect and POSSIBLY an interactive one in RESULTS. I believe HMB works on its own, but I am not interested in selling it by itself at this time.

There we go. That was what I was looking for, and thank you Chris, for that. I shall clarify my present stance, since you've graciously done the same.

The title of this thread is "HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients".

With regard to well-trained athletes, I am not convinced HMB "works", and I am not convinced it does not work. As far as I am aware, At Large did not pilot a "HMB-only" supplement on any of its sponsored athletes, so this remains an unknown, and I'm satisfied to leave it there. I will neither agree nor disagree with you, Chris, on its efficacy as a stand-alone supplement. I have not tried it, you did not test it that way, and we simply do not know for certain. You do not sell it on its own, so this is not a real concern to us at this time.

There is evidence that it does have some benefit in certain cases (untrained/detrained adults for example ), and it appears to be safe.

When combining two or more treatments, there are main effects and there are interactive effects. The interactive effects may either add to or detract from (ie partially "cancel out") the main effect.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that HMB on its own has some measurable main effect. If this were true, then an ADDITIVE effect would imply that no matter what else you are taking, HMB will add the same metric of improvement.

For example:
Suppose a 3g dose of HMB increases your performance by "A".
Further, let's suppose 80g of dextrose, 3.5g of B-A and 5g of micronized creatine monohydrate increases your performance by "B"

If those effects are ADDITIVE, then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B"

If those effects are INTERACTIVE (lets only consider positive interaction for this example), then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B + AB", where "AB" is some non-zero interaction effect.

If indeed there is an interactive effect, there has to be a physiological mechanism through which this can occur. The problem is, there does not appear to be any such mechanism.

Do you have something to support this?

**dg806** · 05-28-2008, 02:28 PM

mechanisms of action...............now we are getting into a whole different ballgame.

chris mason · 05-28-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

There we go. That was what I was looking for, and thank you Chris, for that. I shall clarify my present stance, since you've graciously done the same.

The title of this thread is "HMB and it's effects when combined with other ingredients".

With regard to well-trained athletes, I am not convinced HMB "works", and I am not convinced it does not work. As far as I am aware, At Large did not pilot a "HMB-only" supplement on any of its sponsored athletes, so this remains an unknown, and I'm satisfied to leave it there. I will neither agree nor disagree with you, Chris, on its efficacy as a stand-alone supplement. I have not tried it, you did not test it that way, and we simply do not know for certain. You do not sell it on its own, so this is not a real concern to us at this time.

There is evidence that it does have some benefit in certain cases (untrained/detrained adults for example ), and it appears to be safe.

When combining two or more treatments, there are main effects and there are interactive effects. The interactive effects may either add to or detract from (ie partially "cancel out") the main effect.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that HMB on its own has some measurable main effect. If this were true, then an ADDITIVE effect would imply that no matter what else you are taking, HMB will add the same metric of improvement.

For example:
Suppose a 3g dose of HMB increases your performance by "A".
Further, let's suppose 80g of dextrose, 3.5g of B-A and 5g of micronized creatine monohydrate increases your performance by "B"

If those effects are ADDITIVE, then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B"

If those effects are INTERACTIVE (lets only consider positive interaction for this example), then a daily dose of Results will increase your performance by "A + B + AB", where "AB" is some non-zero interaction effect.

If indeed there is an interactive effect, there has to be a physiological mechanism through which this can occur. The problem is, there does not appear to be any such mechanism.

Do you have something to support this?

To support my statement "may"? I used the word because the only evidence I have of an interactive effect is empirical.

Lol, you know, I was speaking to Jeff on the phone today and he himself mentioned there is a lot of crap that needs to be sorted through even in the scientific community when it comes to supplements. The best evidence I can give you that RESULTS works is to tell you to try it for yourself. Quit whining about the dextrose and give it a run. You can then comment intelligently on what you feel it has done for you. The same could be said for those few people (TX, sox, and aussie) on this site that want to bash the product. They can bash away, but unless they have used it themselves it is baseless bashing especially considering virtually everyone who has used it LOVES the product. Westside Barbell wants more of it than I can afford to give them on a monthly basis. What do you think that says?

Anyway, try it, or don't. We will both be missing out if you don't...

Duncans Donuts · 05-28-2008, 10:26 PM

Isn't science lovely? The benefit of scientific linearities like logic, math, and Newtonian physics is the satisfaction we get from proofs. Applying this kind of "truth" to a supplement, the interactions the supplement has within a human being, and whether there is an effect and the degree of that effect.

To really recognize benefits that hinge themselves on exercise stimulus, you have to wonder a lot of things about the people being tested: their nutritional outlook, natural stress level, training protocols, rest times, genetic potential. And don't give me that "average" crap, either, because modification of one in hundreds of variances or "overlooking" from the case Doctor can skew results. We need to be very careful in evaluating experiments that are related to human biology and the effects made on it from chemicals.

As far as averages go, throwing two darts: one 5 inches to the left of the bullseye, and 5 inches to the right of the bullseye garners an average of a perfect hit.

I'm not an alarmist or anti-experiment, either. There has been some very valuable and good work done and published in journals. That said there is also a lot of shit, and reading the conclusions, despite being easy and convenient, will sometimes lead you into believing the wrong thing. Back in the 70s (i think) many Doctors held the position that anabolic steroids did nothing - and published to that effect, a clear expression of their bias - despite the overwhelming reality that was contrary.

The thing to remember here is that our bodies operate on sophisticated mechanical principles. Gene transcription, expression, receptor sensitivity, nutrition absorption efficiency, etc. will vary wildly from person to person. And those are the inherent factors, not including the environmental ones! What you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, how much you work, and the like.

And, as anecdotal and unscientific as it sounds, the best way to figure out if a supplement is hype or helpful will depend largely on you. I've seen people who have taken creatine, gone insane with overestimating their recover ability, and dropped weight at the end of the cycle as well as having lost several pounds after.

Of course, the fact that there is evidence it works whether additive or interactive or stand alone should warrant a personal experiment with it. At least wait to know before you slander it, yeah?

**Built** · 05-28-2008, 11:15 PM

I haven't actually ever bashed your product, Chris.

I can't handle the dextrose and requested a sugar free version, and I questioned the validity of the claims made by yourself and your sponsored athletes, but I haven't said that HMB doesn't work.

I only ever said I don't know.

And asked for something - ANYTHING - that would back up YOUR claims that your product:

Has anabolic-like protective properties while cutting (half as effective, in your experience)
Will produce better results than a protein supplement
Works better than the same combination of ingredients sans HMB
Would work almost as well without the 80 grams of dextrose, even though you aren't selling it.

I can't take your product with the dextrose, Chris. I got off Metformin by changing my diet, and losing weight, but I'm still waaaaay too insulin resistant to consume that much sugar. It will make me ill.

chris mason · 05-29-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Isn't science lovely? The benefit of scientific linearities like logic, math, and Newtonian physics is the satisfaction we get from proofs. Applying this kind of "truth" to a supplement, the interactions the supplement has within a human being, and whether there is an effect and the degree of that effect.

To really recognize benefits that hinge themselves on exercise stimulus, you have to wonder a lot of things about the people being tested: their nutritional outlook, natural stress level, training protocols, rest times, genetic potential. And don't give me that "average" crap, either, because modification of one in hundreds of variances or "overlooking" from the case Doctor can skew results. We need to be very careful in evaluating experiments that are related to human biology and the effects made on it from chemicals.

As far as averages go, throwing two darts: one 5 inches to the left of the bullseye, and 5 inches to the right of the bullseye garners an average of a perfect hit.

I'm not an alarmist or anti-experiment, either. There has been some very valuable and good work done and published in journals. That said there is also a lot of shit, and reading the conclusions, despite being easy and convenient, will sometimes lead you into believing the wrong thing. Back in the 70s (i think) many Doctors held the position that anabolic steroids did nothing - and published to that effect, a clear expression of their bias - despite the overwhelming reality that was contrary.

The thing to remember here is that our bodies operate on sophisticated mechanical principles. Gene transcription, expression, receptor sensitivity, nutrition absorption efficiency, etc. will vary wildly from person to person. And those are the inherent factors, not including the environmental ones! What you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, how much you work, and the like.

And, as anecdotal and unscientific as it sounds, the best way to figure out if a supplement is hype or helpful will depend largely on you. I've seen people who have taken creatine, gone insane with overestimating their recover ability, and dropped weight at the end of the cycle as well as having lost several pounds after.

Of course, the fact that there is evidence it works whether additive or interactive or stand alone should warrant a personal experiment with it. At least wait to know before you slander it, yeah?

Well said!

TexanTA1996 · 05-29-2008, 12:38 PM

A dextrose free version isn't offered because dextrose and creatine are the only two things in the supplement that are worth spending money on. It may be overpriced, but at least it has some ingredients that "work". Take those two away and you have nothing left.

jchappj · 05-29-2008, 12:41 PM

This thread is becoming a do loop. That comment is only fanning embers and is totally your opinion.

TexanTA1996 · 05-29-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchappj

This thread is becoming a do loop. That comment is only fanning embers and is totally your opinion.

lol, The theory of evolution is also an "opinion"-what's your point? That opinion is overwhelmingly supported by the science and most of the people in that particular industry. We still haven't seen a good study that shows HMB has significant impact on trained individuals, why in the hell do you think that is?

chris mason · 05-29-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I haven't actually ever bashed your product, Chris.

I can't handle the dextrose and requested a sugar free version, and I questioned the validity of the claims made by yourself and your sponsored athletes, but I haven't said that HMB doesn't work.

I only ever said I don't know.

And asked for something - ANYTHING - that would back up YOUR claims that your product:

Has anabolic-like protective properties while cutting (half as effective, in your experience)
Will produce better results than a protein supplement
Works better than the same combination of ingredients sans HMB
Would work almost as well without the 80 grams of dextrose, even though you aren't selling it.

I can't take your product with the dextrose, Chris. I got off Metformin by changing my diet, and losing weight, but I'm still waaaaay too insulin resistant to consume that much sugar. It will make me ill.

Built, you HAVE bashed the product and you have turned a blind eye to any and all evidence I have provided (including studies). The fact you don't recognize that makes me think there are other issues at hand.

In any event, you seem to not tire of the same old stuff, but I am tired. You have expressed your opinion over and over. I am not sure why you are compelled to keep repeating yourself. Your perseveration on the matter may seem appropriate to you, but it really isn't.

If you feel you cannot use the product then I think it best you comment no further. AGAIN, you have stated your opinion, no need to keep repeating it.

**Built** · 05-29-2008, 02:16 PM

Show me where I've bashed your product.

**nni** · 05-29-2008, 02:18 PM

she can have an opinion and not try the product. trying the product isnt the end all be all, there is plenty of real world feedback on the ingredients and more than enough science to base an opinion without ever ingesting the product. i know you guys have a bit of a history from other boards, but simply dismissing her and saying try the product doesnt really prove anything.

lucifuge · 05-29-2008, 03:31 PM

this is just getting silly now...

**Built** · 05-29-2008, 03:34 PM

It really is.

**dg806** · 05-29-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanTA1996

A dextrose free version isn't offered because dextrose and creatine are the only two things in the supplement that are worth spending money on. It may be overpriced, but at least it has some ingredients that "work". Take those two away and you have nothing left.

You would argue with a telephone pole!

**dg806** · 05-29-2008, 06:09 PM

Yeah, we have beat this subject to death.

**Prince** · 05-29-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Yeah, we have beat this subject to death.

ya think?

JerseyDevil · 05-29-2008, 06:59 PM

One of my favorite quotes of all time....

"A sucker is born every minute", although P.T Barnum never said it, still a classic quote when it comes to seperating people from their money.

After 20 years of lifting, these are my conclusions.

I tried Joe Weider protein powders, no result except a smaller wallet.

I tried chromium picolinate, no result except a smaller wallet.

Tried EAS HMG, absolutely no gains, but a HIGHLY smaller wallet.

I tried creatine..... gained 5 lbs of water and could do 3 more reps on a high rep wo. No more gain with continued use. But if I stopped, I lost 5 lbs of water and lost 3 reps on my high rep wo.

After about 15 years of lifting consistently....

Tried prohormones in the form of 1AD, transdermal 4AD, M1T.... big gains. 30 lb increase in bench in around 2 to 2-1/2 weeks. Lost gains almost as fast as I gained once ceased.

Tried steroids in the form of testosterone enanthate, deca, dianabol, winstrol. Huge gains in strength and size. Gains long lasting, about a year after ceasing..

Moral of the story, according to me (imo), don't waste your cash on "supplements" provided by the guys trying to make a living from it. If you are serious, use the real deal.

Do I recommend that? NO. I recommend...

LIFT BIG
EAT BIG
GET BIG

Seems so simple huh? Food is super anabolic. Proof? If you stop eating, you will die. If you eat a bunch, you will get big (fat and muscle). If you stop eating, and take high dose steroids? You will still shrink and die.

I'm sure the supplement boys will slam this post, but remember YOU are lining their wallets. They have an agenda.

TexanTA1996 · 05-29-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerseyDevil

One of my favorite quotes of all time....

"A sucker is born every minute", although P.T Barnum never said it, still a classic quote when it comes to seperating people from their money.

After 20 years of lifting, these are my conclusions.

I tried Joe Weider protein powders, no result except a smaller wallet.

I tried chromium picolinate, no result except a smaller wallet.

Tried EAS HMG, absolutely no gains, but a HIGHLY smaller wallet.

I tried creatine..... gained 5 lbs of water and could do 3 more reps on a high rep wo. No more gain with continued use. But if I stopped, I lost 5 lbs of water and lost 3 reps on my high rep wo.

After about 15 years of lifting consistently....

Tried prohormones in the form of 1AD, transdermal 4AD, M1T.... big gains. 30 lb increase in bench in around 2 to 2-1/2 weeks. Lost gains almost as fast as I gained once ceased.

Tried steroids in the form of testosterone enanthate, deca, dianabol, winstrol. Huge gains in strength and size. Gains long lasting, about a year after ceasing..

Moral of the story, according to me (imo), don't waste your cash on "supplements" provided by the guys trying to make a living from it. If you are serious, use the real deal.

Do I recommend that? NO. I recommend...

LIFT BIG
EAT BIG
GET BIG

Seems so simple huh? Food is super anabolic. Proof? If you stop eating, you will die. If you eat a bunch, you will get big (fat and muscle). If you stop eating, and take high dose steroids? You will still shrink and die.

I'm sure the supplement boys will slam this post, but remember YOU are lining their wallets. They have an agenda.

You are absolutely correct.

**nni** · 05-29-2008, 07:47 PM

yes, nothing works, science lies.

im all for saying the majority of stuff being sold is crap, but i will never say all supplements are worthless. it simply isnt true, but nothing will compare to steroids.

TexanTA1996 · 05-29-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nni

yes, nothing works, science lies.

im all for saying the majority of stuff being sold is crap, but i will never say all supplements are worthless. it simply isnt true, but nothing will compare to steroids.

Technically, a protein supplement is food. So I'm not talking about protein, or even weight gainers, MRP's etc...I don't believe he was either.

We're talking about 99% of the other supps out there. Multi's and all that stuff are great. However, most everything else is a gigantic waste of money.

**nni** · 05-29-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Original

05-28-2008, 02:28 PM	#34
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,127	mechanisms of action...............now we are getting into a whole different ballgame.
	www.sbmuscle.com

05-28-2008, 10:26 PM	#36
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Isn't science lovely? The benefit of scientific linearities like logic, math, and Newtonian physics is the satisfaction we get from proofs. Applying this kind of "truth" to a supplement, the interactions the supplement has within a human being, and whether there is an effect and the degree of that effect. To really recognize benefits that hinge themselves on exercise stimulus, you have to wonder a lot of things about the people being tested: their nutritional outlook, natural stress level, training protocols, rest times, genetic potential. And don't give me that "average" crap, either, because modification of one in hundreds of variances or "overlooking" from the case Doctor can skew results. We need to be very careful in evaluating experiments that are related to human biology and the effects made on it from chemicals. As far as averages go, throwing two darts: one 5 inches to the left of the bullseye, and 5 inches to the right of the bullseye garners an average of a perfect hit. I'm not an alarmist or anti-experiment, either. There has been some very valuable and good work done and published in journals. That said there is also a lot of shit, and reading the conclusions, despite being easy and convenient, will sometimes lead you into believing the wrong thing. Back in the 70s (i think) many Doctors held the position that anabolic steroids did nothing - and published to that effect, a clear expression of their bias - despite the overwhelming reality that was contrary. The thing to remember here is that our bodies operate on sophisticated mechanical principles. Gene transcription, expression, receptor sensitivity, nutrition absorption efficiency, etc. will vary wildly from person to person. And those are the inherent factors, not including the environmental ones! What you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, how much you work, and the like. And, as anecdotal and unscientific as it sounds, the best way to figure out if a supplement is hype or helpful will depend largely on you. I've seen people who have taken creatine, gone insane with overestimating their recover ability, and dropped weight at the end of the cycle as well as having lost several pounds after. Of course, the fact that there is evidence it works whether additive or interactive or stand alone should warrant a personal experiment with it. At least wait to know before you slander it, yeah?
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

05-28-2008, 11:15 PM	#37
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 1,794	I haven't actually ever bashed your product, Chris. I can't handle the dextrose and requested a sugar free version, and I questioned the validity of the claims made by yourself and your sponsored athletes, but I haven't said that HMB doesn't work. I only ever said I don't know. And asked for something - ANYTHING - that would back up YOUR claims that your product: Has anabolic-like protective properties while cutting (half as effective, in your experience) Will produce better results than a protein supplement Works better than the same combination of ingredients sans HMB Would work almost as well without the 80 grams of dextrose, even though you aren't selling it. I can't take your product with the dextrose, Chris. I got off Metformin by changing my diet, and losing weight, but I'm still waaaaay too insulin resistant to consume that much sugar. It will make me ill.

05-29-2008, 12:41 PM	#40
jchappj I Don't Feel Tardy! Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 395 Photos: 1	This thread is becoming a do loop. That comment is only fanning embers and is totally your opinion.
	Peace!

05-29-2008, 02:18 PM	#44
nni Designer Supplements Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,212 Blog Entries: 1	she can have an opinion and not try the product. trying the product isnt the end all be all, there is plenty of real world feedback on the ingredients and more than enough science to base an opinion without ever ingesting the product. i know you guys have a bit of a history from other boards, but simply dismissing her and saying try the product doesnt really prove anything.
	www.DesignerSupps.com Adrenalean now available.

05-29-2008, 12:38 PM	#39
TexanTA1996 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: uptown Posts: 184	A dextrose free version isn't offered because dextrose and creatine are the only two things in the supplement that are worth spending money on. It may be overpriced, but at least it has some ingredients that "work". Take those two away and you have nothing left.

05-29-2008, 02:16 PM	#43
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 1,794	Show me where I've bashed your product.

05-29-2008, 03:31 PM	#45
lucifuge LG Sciences Rep Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: 1313 Mockingbird Lane Posts: 1,114 Photos: 11	this is just getting silly now...
	*All statements, advice, and opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinions of LG Sciences.*

05-29-2008, 03:34 PM	#46
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 1,794	It really is.

05-29-2008, 06:09 PM	#48
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,127	Yeah, we have beat this subject to death.
	www.sbmuscle.com

05-29-2008, 06:59 PM	#50
JerseyDevil Done Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Southern, NJ Posts: 5,176	One of my favorite quotes of all time.... "A sucker is born every minute", although P.T Barnum never said it, still a classic quote when it comes to seperating people from their money. After 20 years of lifting, these are my conclusions. I tried Joe Weider protein powders, no result except a smaller wallet. I tried chromium picolinate, no result except a smaller wallet. Tried EAS HMG, absolutely no gains, but a HIGHLY smaller wallet. I tried creatine..... gained 5 lbs of water and could do 3 more reps on a high rep wo. No more gain with continued use. But if I stopped, I lost 5 lbs of water and lost 3 reps on my high rep wo. After about 15 years of lifting consistently.... Tried prohormones in the form of 1AD, transdermal 4AD, M1T.... big gains. 30 lb increase in bench in around 2 to 2-1/2 weeks. Lost gains almost as fast as I gained once ceased. Tried steroids in the form of testosterone enanthate, deca, dianabol, winstrol. Huge gains in strength and size. Gains long lasting, about a year after ceasing.. Moral of the story, according to me (imo), don't waste your cash on "supplements" provided by the guys trying to make a living from it. If you are serious, use the real deal. Do I recommend that? NO. I recommend... LIFT BIG EAT BIG GET BIG Seems so simple huh? Food is super anabolic. Proof? If you stop eating, you will die. If you eat a bunch, you will get big (fat and muscle). If you stop eating, and take high dose steroids? You will still shrink and die. I'm sure the supplement boys will slam this post, but remember YOU are lining their wallets. They have an agenda.

05-29-2008, 07:47 PM	#52
nni Designer Supplements Moderator Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,212 Blog Entries: 1	yes, nothing works, science lies. im all for saying the majority of stuff being sold is crap, but i will never say all supplements are worthless. it simply isnt true, but nothing will compare to steroids.
	www.DesignerSupps.com Adrenalean now available.