Thread: A little extra edge..

Refining your diet and training will make more of a difference than any supplement, and would be cheaper also.

Originally Posted by KelJu

Refining your diet and training will make more of a difference than any supplement, and would be cheaper also.

You defined what a supplement does in your thread title. A little extra edge. That is all it is.

why no creatine? (i am assuming some nefarious rumor you heard)

i heard it can slow you down in sports and put water weight on you and that you'll loose all your gains once you come off it

Originally Posted by KelJu

Refining your diet and training will make more of a difference than any supplement, and would be cheaper also.

While I agree that you are right, I do not understand why every time someone asks advice on this forum about supplements half of the members ALWAYS say "fix your diet, supplements don't do anything". But the thing is, he already said in his post that his diet is pretty good. If he says it is good I would believe him. So what if muscle gains from supplements are small, he said he wants a "little" extra help so why not give some advice on the subject of supplements? I am no expert but this is just what I would assume would be the proper thing to do.

Now, I have tried a few different supplements and so far my favorites are Anabolic Pump and NO-Xplode. If you are NOT looking for anything with creatine in it (why not?) then NO-Xplode is not for you. Also, a lot of people will bash NO-Xplode because it is expensive and people say that the energy effect wears off after a couple of week (because your body gets used to the caffeine). Since I have only been using NO-Xplode for about a week now I cannot comment on that yet (the effects are still as good for me right now as they were a week ago).

I personally really enjoy Anabolic Pump. If I were you I would look in to getting a bottle of that and see what it does for you. but MAKE SURE you read the directions because there is a certain way to take it (take the pill then 15 minutes consume a complex carbohydrate containing meal usually 40-70g).

The people that have said to fix your diet are correct IF your diet is not already on track. You said that your diet is on track so I will believe you, but I would read up on some of the stickies in the diet and nutrition forums here at the ironmag forums because there is some REALLY great information in them (especially look at posts from Built).

Good luck!

If I came off as harsh to the people who said just fix your diet I am sorry. That is not what I was trying to do. I just think that if he says his diet is good then give him the benefit of the doubt and answer the question he asked. Sorry if it came off as harsh or maybe even ignorant. I am sure you all have much more experience than me in bodybuilding, I was just putting in my two cents!

Originally Posted by jmstoge

i heard it can slow you down in sports and put water weight on you and that you'll loose all your gains once you come off it

not true.

whats sports, what are your goals etc?

Originally Posted by jmstoge

I have next to no genetics in my family for muscle growth. I'm eating pretty well when I work out but my gains are hard to see. I need a supplement with a little extra edge but with no creatine, and nothing that will make me sick when I come off it because I'm an athlete. Any suggestions?

What do you mean no genetics for muscle growth? Do you have a ridiculous metabolism or what?

What are your goals and what are your stats?

ok well first of all gotrisports, thank you very much that was a very informative post and i appreciate it. It was exactly what I was looking for. Anyway to answer nni's question, I play baseball and I can't afford to slow down anymore on my 60 yard dash time or I can kiss my hopes of playing in college goodbye. To answer egodog48, what I mean by no genetics for muscle growth is that some people are just naturally ripped and dont have to work out much. And others can lift for 6 weeks and get jacked. I don't have that luxury. My goals are to be a lean muscular 160. Last year I decided to try and gain weight so I started lifting and drinking weight gainer. From october to February I went from 142 to 171. My goal is like I said to have lean defined muscle and I'm sick of going on these cutting diets and losing 10 pounds all for nothing. I follow the diet step by step and I push myself in the gym really hard and all that happens is I loose weight and muscle and just look skinny. Its frustrating.

I'm currently 5 foot 9 and 155 give or take (I think that's what you meant by stats)

creatine will help with strength and possibly size. it will not bloat and slow you down. it honestly makes no sense for an athlete who i strenght training to not consider it. i played college hockey and creatine never interfered with anything.

Originally Posted by jmstoge

I have next to no genetics in my family for muscle growth. I'm eating pretty well when I work out but my gains are hard to see. I need a supplement with a little extra edge but with no creatine, and nothing that will make me sick when I come off it because I'm an athlete. Any suggestions?

Please describe what your pretty good diet is. How many calories do you eat, how many grams of protein, carb and fat? How do you time your nutrition around your training?

Originally Posted by GOtriSports

While I agree that you are right, I do not understand why every time someone asks advice on this forum about supplements half of the members ALWAYS say "fix your diet, supplements don't do anything". But the thing is, he already said in his post that his diet is pretty good. If he says it is good I would believe him. <snip>

The people that have said to fix your diet are correct IF your diet is not already on track. You said that your diet is on track so I will believe you, but I would read up on some of the stickies in the diet and nutrition forums here at the ironmag forums because there is some REALLY great information in them (especially look at posts from Built).

Good luck!

Thanks for the props, bud. I appreciate it.

I'd like to believe every poster who complains about slow progress and who also claims to have a "good" diet. The problem is that for so many who post this type of question, when you ask them what I just asked the OP, they won't know. They'll say "oh, I eat a lot", or "I eat clean"... but they typically don't actually know their macros.

Some supplements have their place to be sure, but not until the diet is worked out. It's like curtains. You can look for curtains that work, but until you have a window to hang 'em in, well, maybe buy yourself a house first, know what I'm saying? Once you have a house you can look for the right curtains. Once you have the diet and the training nailed, add in the appropriate supps.

Originally Posted by nni

creatine will help with strength and possibly size. it will not bloat and slow you down. it honestly makes no sense for an athlete who i strenght training to not consider it. i played college hockey and creatine never interfered with anything.

Creatine has been shown to improve the athletic performance of sprinters. I can't see how it would slow you down - and you don't "lose all your gains" when you go off! They're not steroids!

Originally Posted by Built

- and you don't "lose all your gains" when you go off! They're not steroids!

I don't completely agree with this statement, but thats just my personal experience

Anyway back to the topic. IMO athletes must take creatine.

Originally Posted by GOtriSports

While I agree that you are right, I do not understand why every time someone asks advice on this forum about supplements half of the members ALWAYS say "fix your diet, supplements don't do anything". But the thing is, he already said in his post that his diet is pretty good. If he says it is good I would believe him. So what if muscle gains from supplements are small, he said he wants a "little" extra help so why not give some advice on the subject of supplements? I am no expert but this is just what I would assume would be the proper thing to do.

Noone here said supplements do nothing. However, they will do nothing if the big factors are not set properly (diet and training). For example, a weight loss supplement will not help you lose weight when you are eating excess calories.

Here are some stupid little analogies for you. When you type something up, you can choose a font to use. If you have nothing typed, using a font is worthless because it has no affect. You have to start from the ground up. You don't put a steeple on a church before it is built. You can't put a carpet down when you have no floor boards. I can go on.

I don't trust anybody when they say their diet is pretty good, unless they previously had done actions that would make me believe it. I've had countless friends complain about how they diet well but can't make any changes. In reality, they diet blows. They need education.

Noone here really has a grudge against supplements, but are rather trying to save people from wasting possibly hundreds of dollars on something that will have a small or nil contribution to one's goals. We are trying to help people understand that they can progress to their goals without spending a penny, but just changing somethings.

Plus, the original poster has already demonstrated his lack of knowledge in supplements with his views on creatine, we can only assume from that information that he probably doesn't understand diet and training as well.

Originally Posted by GOtriSports

While I agree that you are right, I do not understand why every time someone asks advice on this forum about supplements half of the members ALWAYS say "fix your diet, supplements don't do anything". But the thing is, he already said in his post that his diet is pretty good. If he says it is good I would believe him. So what if muscle gains from supplements are small, he said he wants a "little" extra help so why not give some advice on the subject of supplements? I am no expert but this is just what I would assume would be the proper thing to do.

Now, I have tried a few different supplements and so far my favorites are Anabolic Pump and NO-Xplode. If you are NOT looking for anything with creatine in it (why not?) then NO-Xplode is not for you. Also, a lot of people will bash NO-Xplode because it is expensive and people say that the energy effect wears off after a couple of week (because your body gets used to the caffeine). Since I have only been using NO-Xplode for about a week now I cannot comment on that yet (the effects are still as good for me right now as they were a week ago).

I personally really enjoy Anabolic Pump. If I were you I would look in to getting a bottle of that and see what it does for you. but MAKE SURE you read the directions because there is a certain way to take it (take the pill then 15 minutes consume a complex carbohydrate containing meal usually 40-70g).

The people that have said to fix your diet are correct IF your diet is not already on track. You said that your diet is on track so I will believe you, but I would read up on some of the stickies in the diet and nutrition forums here at the ironmag forums because there is some REALLY great information in them (especially look at posts from Built).

Good luck!

The reason I posted what I did was because the OP has posted some really newbie questions lately which leads me to believe that supps would be a total waste of his money until he fixed his diet and training. I wasn't rude, and I politely asked him to post his diet and training program, and I am willing to look at it and try and help him out. More importantly, there are members here that know a shit ton more than me who can also help him out in those respects.

I believe that there is a huge fucking problem with bad advice and misinformation in the field of exercise science. "I'm not making gains, is there a pill to fix the fact that i have no clue what my calorie intake was today?" "How many times a week should I work my abs to get a six-pack, and oh is there a pill to help me bulk and put on muscle?"

I'm not shitting on anybody, but just know that there is a reason I responded the way I did.

Now, if the OP posted a diet and training program that seemed adequate, i would recommend creatine. Personally, I get my creatine in the form of cytosport fast twitch. Fast Twitch also has thermogenic stimulants and other helpful ingredients, plus I like the taste better than No-Explode. You can get Fast Twitch through many of our board sponsors.

Originally Posted by KelJu

The reason I posted what I did was because the OP has posted some really newbie questions lately which leads me to believe that supps would be a total waste of his money until he fixed his diet and training. I wasn't rude, and I politely asked him to post his diet and training program, and I am willing to look at it and try and help him out. More importantly, there are members here that know a shit ton more than me who can also help him out in those respects.

I believe that there is a huge fucking problem with bad advice and misinformation in the field of exercise science. "I'm not making gains, is there a pill to fix the fact that i have no clue what my calorie intake was today?" "How many times a week should I work my abs to get a six-pack, and oh is there a pill to help me bulk and put on muscle?"

I'm not shitting on anybody, but just know that there is a reason I responded the way I did.

Now, if the OP posted a diet and training program that seemed adequate, i would recommend creatine. Personally, I get my creatine in the form of cytosport fast twitch. Fast Twitch also has thermogenic stimulants and other helpful ingredients, plus I like the taste better than No-Explode. You can get Fast Twitch through many of our board sponsors.

I posted my diet and routine in the thread "Can someone write me up a program" or something along those lines. It should be in the training section. If you can't find it just let me know and i'll post it again here.

Originally Posted by jmstoge

I posted my diet and routine in the thread "Can someone write me up a program" or something along those lines. It should be in the training section. If you can't find it just let me know and i'll post it again here.

Yeah, I'll look at it. I just got back from out of town.

and built, look i no ur all about trying to tell people to forget about supplements and focus on your diet but you gotta understand I'm doing the best i can here. I've done research and i no what is good and what isn't for the most part. I eat healthy and try to meet all my guidelines for protein fat carbs blah blah blah to the best of my ability. but i live in a big family. I think your blog is great and eveything but I just dont have the time to go out and buy fish oil, omega 3 supplements, and all that stuff and tell my mom to fry me a fish every night instead of eating what is being served to the family. Many nights i'll eat my own thing and ignore the pizza that is on the table. but it gets to the point where supplements need to come into play for me to see any progress. All I'm asking is for some suggestions. I'm 17 years old. What do you want ya know? I want you to keep posting for me cuz your obviously a fitness guru but it got the point where I just had to let you know my situation.

jmstoge's diet:

Originally Posted by jmstoge

DIET: My diet is actually fairly simple. I stay away from carbs after 8pm or so. And as far as Carbs go, I eat a limited amount, usually from mostly potatoes, oatmeal, and pancakes. I try to eat 250 grams of protein a day. About 60% of my protein intake comes from supplements. I like Isopure Meal Replacements, and Protein Powder. Nitro Tech is good as well. I also eat protein bars from LeanBody. Most of the protein I eat from food I get out of egg whites, steak, fish, chicken, milk,and cottage cheese. Sushi I eat around 3 times a week.

I stand by my earlier assertion: nowhere near ready for supplementation. jmstoge, FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal your food and post up the numbers.

Bud, I'm not trying to crap on you and I understand you don't do your own cooking. It's no big deal to work around, we'll help, okay? Figure out roughly what you're eating now and we'll help you add in what you need to make sure you keep making gains.

We all use fitday or some other software to do this. It's a nuisance at first, but it becomes very normal, and it's how you know your training is being adequately fed.

Originally Posted by jmstoge

and built, look i no ur all about trying to tell people to forget about supplements and focus on your diet but you gotta understand I'm doing the best i can here. I've done research and i no what is good and what isn't for the most part. I eat healthy and try to meet all my guidelines for protein fat carbs blah blah blah to the best of my ability. but i live in a big family. I think your blog is great and eveything but I just dont have the time to go out and buy fish oil, omega 3 supplements, and all that stuff and tell my mom to fry me a fish every night instead of eating what is being served to the family. Many nights i'll eat my own thing and ignore the pizza that is on the table. but it gets to the point where supplements need to come into play for me to see any progress. All I'm asking is for some suggestions. I'm 17 years old. What do you want ya know? I want you to keep posting for me cuz your obviously a fitness guru but it got the point where I just had to let you know my situation.

Believe it or not, I don't tell people to forget about supplements - usually I suggest a few such as fish oil, creatine and vitamins C, E, D, multi B and a few others such as selenium and even iodine in some situations.

Getting supplements before you know what you're actually eating is like buying curtains before you have a house. Let's get a good handle of what your diet actually breaks down into so we know what to suggest, k?

I ain't no guru. I just lift shit.

Most everyone over the yrs that have posted along this same line, have been proven to have a diet that is lacking. The number 1 biggest problem to muscle and weight gain is diet related. Most people don't have the knowledge to maintain a diet they need. The diet is ALWAYS the first thing that should be looked at. I've seen people guarentee there diet is spot on. But when posted, I've seen many problems. Always room for improvment in a diet. And this one is no exception.

Breakfast:

-Special K cereal w skim milk
-Banana
-1%milk fat cottage cheese (maybe a half cup at most)
-2 glasses of water
-I take my multi vitamin

Mid morning:

-Zone Perfect Protein Bar
-glass of water

Lunch:

-Sliced turkey breast on an open faced whole 12 grain bread w/fat free gravey
-Cup of strawberries
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water

Post work-out

-GNC Whey Protein isolate shake w/ 3 egg whites mixed in, and mixed with water not milk


Dinner:

-3 small strips of chicken breast cooked with fat free italian dressing
-Side of broccoli
-1 cup of fat free yogurt
-1/2 baked potato w/ no butter or sour cream
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water
-I take my fish oil if I have it

Before bed:

-1 serving of GNC Whey Protein Isolate

Originally Posted by jmstoge

Breakfast:

-Special K cereal w skim milk
-Banana
-1%milk fat cottage cheese (maybe a half cup at most)
-2 glasses of water
-I take my multi vitamin

Mid morning:

-Zone Perfect Protein Bar
-glass of water

Lunch:

-Sliced turkey breast on an open faced whole 12 grain bread w/fat free gravey
-Cup of strawberries
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water

Post work-out

-GNC Whey Protein isolate shake w/ 3 egg whites mixed in, and mixed with water not milk


Dinner:

-3 small strips of chicken breast cooked with fat free italian dressing
-Side of broccoli
-1 cup of fat free yogurt
-1/2 baked potato w/ no butter or sour cream
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water
-I take my fish oil if I have it

Before bed:

-1 serving of GNC Whey Protein Isolate

are the eggs raw? if so you are basically wasting your time, the protein is not very bioavailable if not cooked. just add another scoop of protein.

Originally Posted by jmstoge

Breakfast:

-Special K cereal w skim milk replace this with old fashioned oatmeal
-Banana
-1%milk fat cottage cheese (maybe a half cup at most)
-2 glasses of water
-I take my multi vitamin
Learn how to cook eggs and add them here

Mid morning:

-Zone Perfect Protein Bar replace this with whey protein bars are crap
-glass of water

Lunch:

-Sliced turkey breast on an open faced whole 12 grain bread w/fat free gravey If you have to have a sandwich stick an entire chicken breast in there
-Cup of strawberries
-1 glass skim milk Add oatmeal
-1 glass water

Post work-out

-GNC Whey Protein isolate shake w/ 3 egg whites mixed in, and mixed with water not milk Do not eat raw eggs! That shit can possibly make you sick and doesn't serve a purpose.


Dinner:

-3 small strips of chicken breast cooked with fat free italian dressing
-Side of broccoli
-1 cup of fat free yogurt
-1/2 baked potato w/ no butter or sour cream replace with sweet potato
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water
-I take my fish oil if I have it

Before bed:

-1 serving of GNC Whey Protein Isolate
double this and add some cottage cheese

My recommendations are not very good, but you say you don't have much control over what is served so that is the best I can do. I understand yoru situation. My mom is one of the greatest southern cooks in the south. Even my vegetables were deep fried growing up.

However, you need to approach your mother and explain to hear that you want to make changes in your diet to live a healthier life. you are 17. you aught to have a job, and you can easily afford the little bit of extra food to improve your success in the gym.

Eggs are cheap. Buy a cheap frying pan and learn how to fry eggs. cottage cheese is cheap considering the quality protein you get from it. Oatmeal is cheap. All of these things need to be a staple of your diet. You are not eating enough, and your diet is far from adequate. Why are you drinking so much milk? there is a ton of sugar in there, and I try to avoid sugar at all cost.

do as built suggest, and start using fitday.
Don't waste your money on GNC brand protein. There are supplement companies at this board who have much better deals on far superior products.

Originally Posted by jmstoge

Breakfast:

-Special K cereal w skim milk
-Banana
-1%milk fat cottage cheese (maybe a half cup at most)
-2 glasses of water
-I take my multi vitamin

Mid morning:

-Zone Perfect Protein Bar
-glass of water

Lunch:

-Sliced turkey breast on an open faced whole 12 grain bread w/fat free gravey
-Cup of strawberries
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water

Post work-out

-GNC Whey Protein isolate shake w/ 3 egg whites mixed in, and mixed with water not milk


Dinner:

-3 small strips of chicken breast cooked with fat free italian dressing
-Side of broccoli
-1 cup of fat free yogurt
-1/2 baked potato w/ no butter or sour cream
-1 glass skim milk
-1 glass water
-I take my fish oil if I have it

Before bed:

-1 serving of GNC Whey Protein Isolate

Okay, cool. Now go to FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal and enter these foods. Report back on the macronutrients (total calories, grams of protein, carb and fat)