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  1. #1
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    new program - take a look

    hi guys and girls

    3 day split 5x5 , rest day ,3 day split 3x10-12 , rest day
    8 day cycle

    main goal : Hypertrophy
    improve upper back rhomboids ( advice on this would be helpful)
    stats: 23 6'3 220lbs 15% bf
    split :chest+back/leg+abs/shoulders+bi+tri

    there are two rep ranges, one for the first 3 days and the second for the other 3 days .

    Back +chest (5x5 / 3x10-12 ,unless stated other wise)
    -close grip row
    -flat bench
    -wg pullup / lat pulldown
    -inc db press
    -bent row
    -stiff arm pulldown 2x15

    legs+abs (5x5 / 3x10-12 ,unless stated other wise)
    -squats
    -deads
    -leg curls
    -seated calf raises 2x15
    -leg extension 2x15
    -ab work 15 mins

    sh+arms
    -seated db shoulder press (5x5 / 3x10-12)
    -bb curls (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -weighted dips (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -inc db curls (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -lying tri ext (3x10-12reps / 3x21's)
    -preacher (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -pushdowns (3x21's / 3x10-12 reps)

    split shuld work out like this

    mon - back+chest 5x5
    tues - legs+abs 5x5
    weds - shoulders + b i+ tri
    thurs - rest day
    fri - back +chest 3x10-12
    sat - legs+abs 3x10-12
    sun - shoulders + bi + tri
    mon - rest

    REPEAT

    the progression will be follow like this: when i can hit 5x5 with my 6 rep max with the given exercise i will increase resistance by 2.5% ,likewise when i can complete 12 or more repsfor 3 sets on any of the exercises on the second split i will increase resistance by 2.5 % .some of the compound lifts i may increase more i'll play it by ear.
    this maybe a bit of a complicated layout and there are probably much simpler ways of putting the thing down on paper but i'm tired and this is the seconed time i've written this out cuz my browser crashed right as i was finishing it the first time round. but thats life



    any thoughts or critiscisms would be welcomed i just want to improve.
    thanks for reading!
    Last edited by roastchicken; 07-04-2009 at 03:37 PM. Reason: adjustment

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    you should check out patrick's 3 part article on how to set up a training program found here ---> Understanding the 4-Week Block - Part 1: Advancing Our Training Program

    one thing he talks about and that I think you'll find difficult to do is 5x5 for every exercise you do in your first 3 days... you may come out strong using the 5x5 approach on the first lift of every day but the other lifts in that work out will no doubt doubt suffer which is why you want to incorporate a variety of rep ranges within the same work outs... not just 5x5 one week and 3x10-12 or whatever the next week...
    "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight!" - Ronnie Coleman

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    ok ,thanks .
    i guess chest and back would be the main area of concern as i would be hitting 5 exercises at 5x5 on the first day which would, A. be quite taxing and B.take quite a long time to do .
    what if i were to adjust and only have the main 2 lifts such as close grip row and bench as 5x5 and keep everything else as assistance exercises kept at like 10 rep range.i don't see it being such a problem with legs as i only have 3 main lifts and shoulders is just one exercise balls to the wall. plus i'm not hitting bi's and tri's with 5x5 so it doesn't really apply.
    patricks article is very interesting thanks for the link maybe progression in volume is a different way to do things. but i like the way muscular strength and endurance play off each other with this kind of setup.

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    guess it would work more like this .


    Back +chest (3x10-12 ,unless stated other wise)
    -close grip row 5x5
    -flat bench 5x5
    -wg pullup / lat pulldown
    -inc db press
    -bent row
    -stiff arm pulldown 2x15

    legs+abs (3x10-12 ,unless stated other wise)
    -squats 5x5
    -deads / rom deads
    -leg curls
    -seated calf raises 2x15
    -leg extension 2x15
    -ab work 15 mins

    sh+arms
    -seated db shoulder press (5x5 / 3x10-12)
    -bb curls (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -weighted dips (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -inc db curls (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -lying tri ext (3x10-12reps / 3x21's)
    -preacher (3x6-8reps / 2x 12-15reps)
    -pushdowns (3x21's / 3x10-12 reps)


    i'd do
    2 exercises 5x5 for back and chest
    squats as 5x5 and switch between deads/rom deads for reps

    and keep everything else the same
    plus rest periods 90-120 secs

  6. #6
    Greg
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    That seems like a ton of volume to me. It also seems to be somewhat disorganized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtbmed View Post
    That seems like a ton of volume to me. It also seems to be somewhat disorganized.
    like i said before its not laid out very clearly.

    but really it is simple
    3 days of lower rep range work (5x5 for 1 antagonistic pair on back +chest and legs)
    rest day
    3 days of higher rep range work
    rest day

    still if you could elaborate on your criticisms that would be much appreciated.

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    this is the most coherent way i can lay this out without using a grid. hope it makes things more clear ..

    day 1 chest+back
    close grip row 5x5
    bench 5x5
    wg pulldown 3x10-12
    inc db press 3x10-12
    bent rows 3x10-12

    day 2 legs+abs
    squats 5x5
    deads 3x10-12
    leg curls 3x10-12
    calf raises 2x15
    leg ext 2x15

    day 3 sh+arms
    seated db sh press 5x5
    bb curl 3x6-8
    weighted dips 3x6-8
    seated inc db curls 3x6-8
    skullcrushers 3x10-12
    preacher 3x6-8
    pushdowns 21's

    day 4 rest

    day 5 chest+back
    close grip row 3x10-12
    bench 3x10-12
    wg pulldown 3x10-12
    inc db press 3x10-12
    bent rows 3x10-12

    day 6 legs
    squats 3x10-12
    deads 3x10-12
    leg curls 3x10-12
    calf raises 2x15
    leg ext 2x15

    day 7 sh+arms
    seated db sh press 3x10-12
    bb curl 2x10-12
    weighted dips 2x10-12
    seated inc db curls 2x10-12
    skullcrushers 21's
    preacher 2x10-12
    pushdowns 2x10-12

    day 8 rest

    REPEAT


  9. #9
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    shoulders & arms day = overkill

    I would not split it like you. You work your shoulders & arms when doing the back & chest day, so working them again a few days later is just going to overwork them, let alone 4 times in 8 days.

    I would do a upper push/ lower pull/upper pull/lower push type of split, keep it short and intense.
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    thanks for the input tman ,too much volume in too shorter time frame.
    ok i've always thought that working a muscle or muscle group once a week was never enough stimulation but then again thats just me.
    in the past i've made good gains from similiar programs so i'm really trying to emulate results, don't get me wrong i don't want ppl to just agree with me so i can have a pat on the back and get on with it so fire at will please .

  11. #11
    Greg
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    If working a muscle group once a week isn't enough, why not do a fullbody workout 3 times per week or something?

    You have what seems like way too much volume in that program. To me, there is no reason to train arms/shoulders if you are going to be doing lots of sets of pressing and pulling. There is tons of stimulation of the biceps, triceps, and delts involved in those exercises.

    In my experience it's best to limit direct arm/shoulder work. Do heavy compounds and you should hit those muscle groups. I've seen my biceps grow more from heavy deadlifts and rows than from bicep curls.

  12. #12
    Patrick
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    ^^agree


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    Ever since I stopped working my arms they have exploded, I cannot explain how much. I got a stretch mark mosaic on my right arm and my left arm has some just below the front delt.

    Since I started doing a push/legs/pull split with about 3 exercises for chest & 1 for shoulders, in pull, 3 back exercises & 1 trap exercise I've just become big beyond belief. My diet was in check before but I wasnt growing as much because my routine was overworking me.

    If you want you could do a 3 day full body split with big movements and doing them 3 times a week but with much lower volume ie 1 exercise per workout for each muscle group, eg, bench, row, squat, deadlift, military press, hang clean, cable crossovers, pull ups, lunges etc, and people usually do 3 big ones each workout but change it up slightly every workout, eg Monday - squat, bench, bb row; Wednesday - deadlift, dips, military press; Friday - Lunges, Cable crossovers, seated row. Or something like that maybe you could give it a shot. Also reduces DOMS during the week so it may help if you have a job/hobby that demands you to be physically capable of pushing yourself like football, construction etc.

    Hope this helps.
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    ok thanks all for the advice, i'm currently reading thru pfunks links on cowpimps guide to designing a full body routine ,i'm gonna put something together and post

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    so in the end i opted for a upper/lower split that would see me in the gym eod . i am not going to toy with to many variables and i'm trying to keep it real simple, but please pull me up on anything u like

    upper monday
    db shoulder press 3x8
    wg pullups 3x8
    flat db press 3x8
    seated cable row 3x8

    lower wednesday
    squats 3x8
    rom deads 3x8
    db lunges 3x8

    upper fri
    bench press 3x8
    tbar row 3x8
    weighted dips 3x8
    chins 3x8

    lower sat
    deadlifts 3x8
    leg press 3x8
    leg curl 3x8

    i intend to repeat this for 4 cycles and then have a week deloading perhaps where i drop the volume back to like 1 set per exercise then repeat the 4 week cycle but trying to hit 3x10 instead of 3x8

    questions :
    i wanted to try and isolate a variable to improve upon .eg.rep range ,do the rep ranges seem to static?

    is there any room for any direct arm work ,if so where would the optimal place to put it be ?

    any feedback appreciated .PEACE

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    Quote Originally Posted by roastchicken View Post
    so in the end i opted for a upper/lower split that would see me in the gym eod . i am not going to toy with to many variables and i'm trying to keep it real simple, but please pull me up on anything u like

    upper monday
    db shoulder press 3x8
    wg pullups 3x8
    flat db press 3x8
    seated cable row 3x8

    lower wednesday
    squats 3x8
    rom deads 3x8
    db lunges 3x8

    upper fri
    bench press 3x8
    tbar row 3x8
    weighted dips 3x8
    chins 3x8

    lower sat
    deadlifts 3x8
    leg press 3x8
    leg curl 3x8

    i intend to repeat this for 4 cycles and then have a week deloading perhaps where i drop the volume back to like 1 set per exercise then repeat the 4 week cycle but trying to hit 3x10 instead of 3x8

    questions :
    i wanted to try and isolate a variable to improve upon .eg.rep range ,do the rep ranges seem to static?

    is there any room for any direct arm work ,if so where would the optimal place to put it be ?

    any feedback appreciated .PEACE
    I don't think this is going to work. If you do 2+ sets for a muscle group they wont have recovered within 4 days in order to work them again.

    Split it into upper pull (back & traps), lower (quad dominant), upper push (chest & shoulders), lower (ham & glute dominant). I sugest this split because by the next time you hit the muscles, they will have fully recovered.
    E.g
    Monday - Barbell Row, Rack pulls, Chins, Deadlift
    Tuesday - Squat, Lunges, Hack squat, Calf Raise
    Wednesday - Rest
    Thursday - Bench, Dips, Incline Bench, Military Press
    Friday - Straight Leg deadlift, Good morning, Leg Curl, Calf Raise
    Saturday - Rest
    Sunday - Rest

    This way your muscles will only be hit once a week in a good intensity, and had enough time to recover fully. The only exception being calves. It's all fine and dandy designing a routine but you have to think about soreness and muscle recovery, you need an optimal amount of time before. If you want to do the hit the muscle a couple of times a week split, try a 5x5 routine.

    As for variables you should use different types of variables over time, eg:

    Change Rep Ranges, Rest intervals, Exercises, order of exercises, intensity, different advanced techniques eg drop sets, forced reps, failure training etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_man View Post
    I don't think this is going to work. If you do 2+ sets for a muscle group they wont have recovered within 4 days in order to work them again.
    i find that 48-96 i am usually recovered in the sense that i feel 100% however neurologically maybe i'm not.

    what do you base your opinions on t-man ?

    this is a really good read from JOHN BERARDI who i believe has some articles already here on ironmag ,he backs up your point with some solid references.
    John Berardi - Muscle Recovery

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    Quote Originally Posted by roastchicken View Post
    i find that 48-96 i am usually recovered in the sense that i feel 100% however neurologically maybe i'm not.

    what do you base your opinions on t-man ?

    this is a really good read from JOHN BERARDI who i believe has some articles already here on ironmag ,he backs up your point with some solid references.
    John Berardi - Muscle Recovery
    I've read alot and seen many routines like yours criticised by trusted members on this forum and also others and they all mention recovery. I personally went for a 3 day a week split with 2 exercises per muscle group and found I was still sore after the first day's work. Remember that muscle recovery does not only happen when you're sore.

    Maybe you can try supplementing with creatine & glutamine to speed up recovery. Lots of sleep helps too.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by roastchicken View Post
    i find that 48-96 i am usually recovered in the sense that i feel 100% however neurologically maybe i'm not.

    I train most "parts" twice a week, in different rep ranges, and I'm fine.

    I don't completely annihilate anything when I train though.
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    ok built.
    what do you think of the routine (the upper/lower) ,how would you adapt it ?

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    I don't see any reason to do rack pulls and deadlifts in the same day but that's just me

    so why is everything 3x8 now? why not dedicate the first exercise of every work out to strength training? (ie: using a rep ranges of 1-5) do your big exercises first (bench, squats, deadlifts) then work in the 6-10 rep range for a bit and finish with some higher rep stuff... training with a variety of rep ranges will ensure you're training your muscles for strength, hypertrophy and muscular endurance...

    I'm personally not a fan of the full body work out 3 days a week with a day of rest in between... the most enjoyable split I've used to date is built's "baby got back" routine which is an upper/lower/upper/lower split... you should read the article...
    Last edited by Skib; 07-07-2009 at 04:00 AM.
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  22. #22
    Greg
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    Rack pulls are a good accessory movement to deads and they also allow one to load up the bar with more weight to focus on the strain at the top. I can see why someone would want to do them on the same day as deads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    I train most "parts" twice a week, in different rep ranges, and I'm fine.

    I don't completely annihilate anything when I train though.
    3x8 is a tough rep range that will most likely cause either DOMS or require longer lengths to recover from though, right??
    Plus they're big exercises as well which are more likely to annihalate
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    Natty lifters often respond best to frequent hits. There's nothing wrong with doing a few heavy compounds, then the same ones a few days later.

    For instance, I might do 5x5 and 3x8 squats on Tuesday, then do 3x10-12 front squats on Friday.

    I still go as heavy as I can, given the rep range. I just don't do a two-hour quad workout both days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Natty lifters often respond best to frequent hits. There's nothing wrong with doing a few heavy compounds, then the same ones a few days later.

    For instance, I might do 5x5 and 3x8 squats on Tuesday, then do 3x10-12 front squats on Friday.

    I still go as heavy as I can, given the rep range. I just don't do a two-hour quad workout both days.
    Okay go with this roastchicken

    Btw, What if you did Squats AND lunges, then another 2 on the friday?
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    Shouldn't be a problem. I find it helpful to vary my rep ranges through the days.
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    upper monday
    flat db press 5x5
    seated cable row 3x8
    db shoulder press 3x10-12
    wg pullups 3x8


    lower wednesday
    squats 3x8
    rom deads 3x10-12
    db lunges 3x8

    upper fri
    bench press 8x3 ??? -
    tbar row 3x8
    weighted dips 3x10-12
    chins 3x8

    lower sat
    deadlifts 5x5
    leg press 3x8
    leg curl 3x10-12

    i've tried to vary the rep ranges and consider volume - i'm by no means a natural lifter btw.

    any room for assistance? calfs/biceps/triceps

    built- read bgb thought it was ace

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    that looks a lot better than what you originally posted... just figure out a way to progress your lifts and you'll be gold... as for calves i'd throw some standing calf raises at the end of either leg day... dips and other presses should hit your triceps plenty hard... same with pulling movements for biceps but if you still want to train them directly just throw a couple sets in at the end of either upper body days... but i wouldn't make isolated arm exercises the focus of any of your days...

    just noticed that both of your horizontal pushing movements are flat... why not do incline for one?
    Last edited by Skib; 07-07-2009 at 04:53 PM.
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    what would the best method of progression be?
    i realise there is no quick answer to that question but specifically for this program i would have thought that hitting the designated rep range and then increasing resistance would be the simplest and easiest way forward.

    would each rep range need a different method of progression ?
    eg.5x5 you wouldn't want to add reps to but 3x8 you could squeeze a couple extra reps out as you begin to be able to handle the weight.

    i always have a training diary so keeping track of my lifts is something that won't be a problem.

    "just noticed that both of your horizontal pushing movements are flat... why not do incline for one?"
    - do you mean monday? -wouldn't inc db press and db sh press be a bit samey - or - do you mean monday's flat db and friday's flat bench? if so i could prob change flat bench to inc bench.

  30. #30
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    why not train in the strength rep range for t-bar rows and hypertrophy range for incline DB or BB bench on upper friday?

    maybe go 5x5 for squats too seeing as you don't have any strength rep ranges for quad dominant exercises... i like the first lift of every work out to be in the strength rep range... if you did that you'd have a strength rep range for bench on day 1, squats on day 2, rows on day 3 and deads on day 4... those are the biggest lifts there are so if your goal is to put on size and your diet is in check i don't see any reason why you won't see some serious gains...

    as for progression read patrick's article on setting up a training block that i posted above...
    "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight!" - Ronnie Coleman

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