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    First Cycle and PCT

    Testosterone cycle design


    Almost weekly someone posts on the Chemical Enhancement forum asking about first cycle advice. The most common questions are; “what steroid should I take?” “How long should I take it?” and “What will the effects be?” There are literally dozens of steroids available and that makes it difficult for a first time user to choose. The following information will attempt to provide enough information for a first time user to make an educated decision about anabolic androgenic steroid use.
    Testosterone is one of the most effective, safe and available steroids today, therefore I believe Testosterone is the best first cycle choice. The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
    600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.
    The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
    The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

    Total Testosterone
    300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
    600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline
    IGF-1
    300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
    600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

    Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

    Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
    300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
    600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
    Fat Mass by underwater weighing
    300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
    600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
    Thigh Muscle Volume
    300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
    600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
    Quadriceps Muscle Volume
    300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
    600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
    Leg Press Strength
    300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
    600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
    Leg Power
    300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
    600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
    Hemoglobin
    300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
    600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
    Plasma HDL Cholesterol
    300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
    600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
    Acne
    300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
    600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

    There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

    Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. The following graph demonstrates that testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.

    Pharmacokinetics of Testosterone cypionate Injection

    Source: Schulte-Beerbuhl, 1980
    Figure. Pharmacokinetics of 200mg Testosterone cypionate injection. Source: Comparison of Testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of Testosterone enanthate or Testosterone cypionate. Schulte-Beerbuhl M, Nieschlag E. Fertility and Sterility 33 (1980) 201-3.

    If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.
    There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.
    Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate. The following chart illustrates the free base equivalents for several compounds.

    Although it was not indicated in the trial, during or after the steroid cycle some men are prone to gynecomastia which is the formation of female like breast tissue. This is due to excessive estrogen as the body tries to balance out the sex hormones. A selective estrogen receptor modulator or S.E.R.M. such as Tamoxifen can be used effectively to combat gynecamastia in an emergency as it competes for the estrogen receptor which in turn inhibits estrogens effects. It is highly recommended that a S.E.R.M. be available during treatment of Testosterone. 10-40mg daily is an effective dose however dosage is dependant on how much testosterone is administered as well as the individual himself.
    The decision to use steroids should not be taken lightly and should be the last consideration after implementing a solid nutritional, training and recovery plan. It is advised to get blood work when using these medications.

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172



    Ancillaries during the cycle



    Aromatase Inhibitor


    I briefly wrote about using Tamoxifen above for emergency gynecomastia treatment however I am convinced that there is a better strategy for controlling estrogen during a steroid cycle. Rather than waiting for the side effects of estrogen to present an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex or Aromasin should be used on cycle to control Estrogen and keep free testosterone levels high. 0.5mg-1mg Arimidex daily OR 10-25mg Aromasin daily. Start with the lower dose and then see how that controls water retention, blood pressure and libido and make adjustments as needed. A blood test would be the most ideal way to determine the dosage of the AI. Free T needs to be in the high range and estradiol between 10-25 pg/ml.


    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin


    Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer HCG during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that HCG is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu HCG taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu HCG weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. HCG will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile.


    Sample cycle with ancillaries


    Sunday 10mg Aromasin
    Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
    Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate
    Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
    Thursday 10mg Aromasin
    Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
    Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate


    For all you guys who want to add multiple compounds to your first course I advise against it because if you have side effects then you will not know which compound is causing the sides. I have gotton a ton of PM's over the years and there is always some reason that I am given for using multiple compounds on the first run but there really is no need. However my cycle sample above may not be for everyone so I am offering an alternative to the flat cycle design. If you want to run a first cycle with a little more horespower than you may want to consider a modified pyramiding cycle. I have done over 20 pyramid courses and must say they are my favorite way to run aas. The human body is always fighting for homeostasis so the concept is to increase dose before gains plateau. Based on the 2009 myostatin study we can design a cycle that is effective for 10 weeks using this strategy. The following first cycle is for men that want a little more performance with added risk while only using Testosterone. The first 5 weeks a standard dose is administered to evaluate how your body responds and to determine if sides are manageable. If sides are manageable then increase the dose.

    Sample first course #2

    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.

    500iu HCG twice weekly.


    Post Cycle therapy


    I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

    I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG etd.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily

    The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

    Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

    Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

    Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

    The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

    References

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

    Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use.

    Written by heavyiron
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by heavyiron; 09-05-2011 at 11:05 AM.

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    There seems to be confusion when to use HCG and how much so I am posting the science for HCG use while on cycle. If you read this abstract you will see that about 1,000iu HCG weekly is needed to restore ITT levels (keep the testes running)


    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
    Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
    Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

    In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.


    full study;
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595

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    Quote Originally Posted by WFC2010 View Post
    good post,plenty info
    Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by danstrass View Post
    If running a 8 week with just prop and tren and testes stay at normal size is HCG neccesary?
    For a easier recovery, yes.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dnunes View Post
    i am a runner and i am trying to be a stronger and faster! i need help getting their! i want to be faster...what can i take??? i dont want to gain lots of weight though! HELP!!!
    Honestly creatine has been shown to be effective for explosive sports so I would use that with protein.



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    Quote Originally Posted by doctormomen View Post
    thank you for such info;
    so i would conclude that this is an example for best ,safest first cycle sample:
    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.

    500iu HCG twice weekly.
    **************************************************
    PCT:
    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily .

    if yes ,so im going to give a go
    Yeah, it is kinda like my first cycle except I went a little higher on the Test.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Great thread, Heavyiron.

    I'm looking to begin my first cycle in the next few months. I have a couple of queries regarding some of your points:

    1. Without igniting the HCG 'on-cycle or PCT' debate, is using HCG throughout a cycle as well as part of a PCT running the risk of the body becoming desensitised to it? Will this, therefore, end up doing the opposite of what's desired and only add to the gear in suppressing natural test? Is this 'switch' dependent on duration or dose, or more down to how how we react to it individually?

    2. I know you've already explained that the latter cycle suggestion is an alternative for those who want a bit more bang in their first cycle, but, in your opinion, do you think 800mg-1000mg of test over the last four weeks is rather high for a first-timer? I know you said you went higher, but how did you get on running those sorts of doses? I understand the whole point of ramping is to monitor you're progression and the sides etc, and that if all's good to increase dose. However, it would be cool to get both your point of view on this.

    Cheers.
    1. Desensitization from HCG can occur at higher doses and when HCG is administered too frequently. In rat studies there was no additional benefit from HCG injected within 24 hours of the first inject. In fact significant benefit from HCG did not occur until 96 hours after the first inject so this supports the concept that there is a temporary desensitization from HCG in rats. Therefore HCG should be administered no more than twice per week OR every 96 hours.

    Until a few years ago very high doses were used when administering HCG but it was discovered that doses as low as 300iu eod restored ITT levels in supressed men using testosterone. Because of the rat study I mentioned above and this human trial I calculated the amount of HCG needed to restore baseline ITT at around 1,050iu weekly OR 500iu twice weekly.

    2. I have read a ton of science and used these meds on and off for over 22 years. If I listened to the thread parrots I would tell you to use 500mg of testosterone weekly but I know many guys will be a little disapointed in the results of that so I am giving the 2nd option for those who want profound gains. Because the higher aas dose is only for a few weeks safety is buillt into the cycle design. Dose and duration are what increase risk in aas users. 4 weeks is quite short a duration so risks are still reasonable. My first course I gained 30lbs.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Also, I'm sure there's no great difference, but would 12 weeks instead of 10 be a good idea for a first cycle? I'm only thinking this as 10-12 weeks seems to be the common suggestion around here, and, given that most say enanthate/cypionate takes roughly two weeks to kick in, I was hoping to get a full 10 weeks worth of growth after the initial two-week 'warm up' as such (as I won't be using prop or dbol etc to kickstart).

    Cheers.
    The body will reach homeostasis around week 8 or 9 unless you use increasing aas doses throughout the cycle because of myostatin levels so the flat cycle design will not work for 12 weeks.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Apologies if I've got this all wrong. Basically, unless the dose in increased as the time goes on (like the second cycle example), a 12-week cycle would yeild no greater gains than those of 10 weeks? Also, is 10 or 12 weeks the average duration because homeostasis has kicked in by then/the receptors are saturated?

    Cheers.
    Receptor saturation is not scientifically proven and certainly not anywhere near these doses. Myostatin is what stalls gains on flat cycles. Read this link;

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...eks-cycle.html



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Sorry to carry on with this, but would a 12-week cycle work if run it like the second, alternative cycle you suggested, i.e. increasing the dose throughout? Or will 12 weeks just be overkill, and the difference between that and 10 weeks neglible?

    Cheers.
    12 weeks is about as far as I would go pushing the dose like that. I prefer a little shorter duration for higher dose cycles so you don't stress out your body too much but I am not entirely opposed to it. I don't think the gains will differ in any large way between 10 and 12 weeks though..



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mags View Post
    Considering this will be my first cycle, I think I'll err on the side of caution and stick to 10 weeks then. I'll aim to increase dosage as the weeks progress, but that will depend entirely on sides and gains.

    Cheers for the prompt and clear advice, Heavy.
    No problem, good luck and keep us posted. Make a new thread about your experiences and if you run into any problems we can tweak the course for you.



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    Quote Originally Posted by raytracer View Post
    Awesome thread and beautifully written...

    I'm doing my first ever cycle and have chosen test prop for that.
    (Low sides esp., bloating etc., and also have existing fat deposition around the nipples...)
    Need to know if I can follow the "Ancillary Schedule" that you have recommended for the sample test enth cycle above.
    I understand that prop needs to be injected every other day during the course of the week...as compared to test enth.

    Also, do u feel test prop is a good choice for a first ever cycle? If not, why?

    PS: I intend to keep the cycle at 300 - 400 mg/week for a 4 week (max) duration.

    PPS: Kick starting my body's own test production at the end of the 4 week cycle is a major area of concern for me.
    Appreciate some advice here.
    Prop is not fun with the constant injects but it will work.

    The main thing is you do not want to take HCG once the test has cleared so that needs to be backed up a week or so.

    The PCT should get your natty going no problem.



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    Quote Originally Posted by xcameron22x View Post
    im goin on my first cycle using ur first post cycle, and i was wondering what else can i use if i dont have aromasin? would dex b good or something else?
    Arimidex will work.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravager View Post
    So this is assuming Test-C or E which roughly is a 16 day ester.

    So starting THE DAY AFTER your last injection is day 1? Then you start injecting HCG EOD the day AFTER the last injection? Same with the clomid etc?
    Yes on the HCG. The Clomid is not as critical. If you get started a week late on the Clomid you are fine.



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    Quote Originally Posted by msumuscle View Post
    Heavy, do you stop HCG around a week before starting PCT?
    I use HCG while the ester is clearing.



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    crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by doctormomen View Post
    thank you for such info;
    so i would conclude that this is an example for best ,safest first cycle sample:
    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.

    500iu HCG twice weekly.
    **************************************************
    PCT:
    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily .

    if yes ,so im going to give a go
    If your considering this as your first cycle your insane honestly 1g of test wtf r u thinking? im 6' 215 lbs 6%bf and only use 600mg. you should do alot more research before you start your first cycle my first cycle was

    week 1-4
    d-bol 30mgs = 10mg 3xday
    week 1-10
    aromasin 12.5mg e.o.d
    test E 500mgs 2 pin split
    week 2-10
    500 iu 2 pin split sub q

    pct
    week 12-15
    do not use hcg in pct as it aromatase
    clomid 100/75/50/50
    aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5
    get some nolvadex in case of gyno symptoms dont use otherwise

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    My first cycle was way more than that...



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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    My first cycle was way more than that...
    really what was it and how were your results side affects? with my first cycle i put on 25lbs of muscle dropped 1%bf with little to no water retention kept all of my weight on and no side affects. more dont always = better especially for a first cycle you should see how your body reacts to what your running imo. Also someone brought up tren dont try tren on your first cycle only experienced users should use tren. tren = serious muscle gains and side affects. if you want to add somthing to your cycle i suggest a test d-bol deca cycle before tren.
    Last edited by c_adam35; 08-01-2011 at 02:01 PM.

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    Lol



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    Quote Originally Posted by safavisr View Post
    Is it necessary to increase dose in increments in a 10 week cycle?
    No, flat cycles are an option.



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    Quote Originally Posted by VMS View Post
    heavyiorn,

    Firstly thanks for the info. Now that I know you need all these extra things in addition to the testosterone I don't know if I would want to go down that path..? It would be hard enough to get one of those items let alone all of them, especially since it's illegal in Australia.

    Are all these extra meds required for HGH?

    Cheers!
    If you want the bare minimum to cycle then I would use Testosterone (any ester) and Nolvadex. Nolva can be used to treat emergency gynocomastia if it presents on cycle and it may be used post cycle for PCT. Here is a cycle layout using the min meds.

    500mg Testosterone weekly for 8 weeks
    20mg Nolvadex ed post cycle for 30 days

    20 mg Nolva may also be employed on cycle if gyno presents.



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    Quote Originally Posted by pieguy View Post
    In terms of a first cycle w/ test prop instead of long esther, is 150mg EOD a safe dose or should i keep it to 100mg eod? I'm using 12.5 aromasin ed and this will probably be an 8 week cycle with back end HCG usage. Torem PCT.
    150mg TP eod is fine brother.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazi View Post
    hello everyone, heavyiron thanks for the lovely info. I have been here for quite awhile, reading about steriods and everything. With time i have gotten to know alot. I do not want to rush it up but just wanted to ask im 21 now lifting from when i was 15. Right now im in the best shape that i have ever been and also the heaviest , so would it be the right time for i first cycle or am i still to you.
    Good or bad answers , anything would be much appreciated
    That is your decision to make. My first cycle was very aggressive. I was 20 years old and I have no regrets. I loved every minute of it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazi View Post
    heavyiron,
    what would you recommend for a first cycle ?
    Im thinking about doing,
    week 1-12 test e 500mg ( mon and thurs 250mg each )
    week 1-4 dianabol 30mg.
    also during pct arimidex .5mg EOD
    PCT:
    clomid and nolva.

    What do you have to say ?
    And thinking about a cutting cycle next time around
    Read the first post in this thread over and over until you comprehend it all.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Wolf View Post
    Mods you should clean this thread, leave posts only by heavyiron and lock it.
    Cleaned thread



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    nice post!

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    2500iu EOD seems dangerous.
    Birds of a feather, flock together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OnPoint88 View Post
    2500iu EOD seems dangerous.
    Higher doses of HCG are commonly prescribed for much longer durations for hypogonadism.



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    Got it,
    Thanks mate

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    im a college student and i want to try out for the football team i was wondering what kind of ph or any kind of supplement should i take to help me out....i want to gain lean muscle mass i dnt want to bulk up to where i cant move i want to stay athletic i want a supplement that can help me get strong more powerful and faster...any advice?

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