First Cycle: 600mg ramp to 1000mg

[Mags]

Hey, folks.

Unfortunately, yes, this is yet another ‘My First Cycle’ thread. And possibly one of the most superfluous and longwinded ones, too. But please bear with me as I’m just trying to work everything out.

Below is what cycle I intend to run. It’s based purely on one of Heavy Iron’s suggestions in his insightful First Cycle and PCT thread. It starts at a slightly-above-average 600mg per week, and ramps up to 1000mg. Now I know this sounds severe and considered far too high for a newbie, but these larger doses - if reached - are only run for a short amount of time. And, although I’m going to stock up so I have enough of everything I need to run these doses, doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to. I’m going to start at 600mg, and if all’s good and sides are low, then I’ll ramp it up a bit at a time. If not, then I won’t.

I’ve also tried to calculate the quantities of what I’ll need, too. I’ve always found this confusing, and my math is probably way off, so apologies if that’s the case. Also, I understand I won’t necessarily be able to get all that's needed to the exact quantities, and will have to round up or buy in certain set amounts. However, this was primarily to get clear in my head what would be the minimum amounts needed. I’ll ensure I get slightly more than needed, particularly tabs and pins ito cover any loss or breakage etc.

Anyway, here are the details (of which I’ve probably made more confusing that they need be).

Feel free to advise on dosages, frequencies, amounts – anything that needs improving or is just plain wrong.


My stats:

Height: 6 ft
Weight: approx 235lbs
BF%: estimated 10-12%
Length of time lifting: 10 years
Previous use of PH/AAS: M1T, 1-T transdermal and H-drol stack, 1-Andro RX
Years lifting before using enhancers: 6-7
Current diet: approx 3,500 cals (pretty clean, but far below what I usually eat)
Bulking diet: approx 5,000 – 6,000 cals
Goals: Mass



On Cycle:

Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly (2 x 300mg)
Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly ( 2 x 400mg )
Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly ( 2 x 500mg )

Are these latter, high-dosage shots going to be a problem? Is pinning 500mg in one shot going to be significantly trickier than 300mg?

10 mg Aromasin daily

500iu HCG twice weekly.



I will also be running supps. for prostate protection, skin and BP.



Frequencies:

Sunday 10mg Aromasin
Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate
Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
Thursday 10mg Aromasin
Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate


PCT

·Day 10 - 16 : 1,000iu HCG EOD.
·100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)
·20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)
·3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses
·10g creatine daily



I’ve written that I’ll be taking 1,000iu of HCG every other day during PCT. However, if I’ve been pinning 500iu on a Monday and a Friday (1000iu per week) throughout the cycle, will this still be ample when on PCT? Or is it essential that I up the dose and shots to 1000 iu in total EOD?

Also, I’m assuming there won’t be a week or so break between my last test shot and the increased dose HCG shot like cycles where HCG is used only in PCT.


Quantities:

Test Enanthate:

·Week 1-5 @ 600mg ED = 600x5 = 3,000mg
·Week 6-8 @ 800mg ED = 800x3 = 2,400mg
·Week 9-10 @ 1,000mg ED = 1000x2 = 2,000mg

Total: 7,400mg

So, with each 10ml vial containing 250mg/ml, does this mean I’ll need 3 vials in total (7,500mg)?

HCG

·16 weeks @ 1,000iu (2x500iu) = 16 x 1,000 = 16,000
Total: 3 vials of 5,000iu + 1 vial of 1,000iu

This might not be accurate as I’m still waiting to see if I need to up HCG use to 1000iu EOD throughout PCT, rather than the lower, less frequent 2 x 500iu shots per week when on cycle.

Aromasin

·On cycle: Week 1-10 @10mg ED. (10mg x 7) x 10 = 700mg for 10 weeks
·PCT: 3 weeks @ 20mg ED. (20mg x 7) x 3 = 420mg
·1 week @ 10 mg ED. 7 x 10 = 70mg
·Total: 700mg + 420mg + 70 = 1190mg
10mg tabs total: 119 tabs
or
25mg tabs total: 47.6 (50)
I’m not sure what size these come in.

Clomid

·3 weeks @ 100mg = (100mg x 7) x 3 = 2,100mg
·1 week @ 50mg = 50mg x 7 = 350mg
·2,100mg + 350mg = 2,450mg.
·2,450mg / 50mg = 49
Total: 49 tabs

Vitamin C

·(1000mg x 3) x 7 days = 21,000mg
·21,000 x 16 weeks = 336, 000mg
·336, 000 mg/ 1000mg = 336 tabs

Total: 336 tabs

Creatine

·10g x 7 = 70g
·70g x 6 weeks = 420g
Total: 420g

Pins

Test:

·2 x shots per week = 2 x pins to pull + 2 x pins to shoot = 4 pins per week
·4 x 10weeks = 40 pins ( 20 x 18g to pull, 20 x 23g to shoot)
HCG:

·2 x shots per week = 2 x pins to pull + 2 pins to shoot = 4 pins per week
·4 x 16 weeks = 64 pins

Bundles of alcohol swabs and band aids (or is it better to leave these out and let the site ‘breathe’?)

Overall:


·3 x 10ml (250mg/ml) vials of test enanthate
·3 x 5000iu vials + 1 x 1000iu vial of HGC
·50 (25mg tabs) or 100 (10mg tabs) Aromasin
·50 x 50mg tabs Clomid
·336 (1000mg tabs) Vitamin C
·470g Creatine
·20 18g pins (more in case of breaks)
·20 23g pins
·64 insulin pins

Again, feel free to advise on dosages, frequencies, amounts – anything that needs improving or is just plain wrong.

Cheers.

 

[VictorZ06]

Don't "ramp" or change your test dose during your cycle. Your plasma levels will flux and you want to avoid that. Pick a test dose and stick with it.

/V

 

[Arnold]

Are these latter, high-dosage shots going to be a problem? Is pinning 500mg in one shot going to be significantly trickier than 300mg?

to avoid pain/discomfort as well as excess scar tissue, you really don't want to pin more than 2ml per injection site, so if your using 250mg/ml that would be fine.

 

[heavyiron]

Wow, very well thought out! Looks good!

I personally like to keep extra of everyting on hand because you will likely need it. For example most guys can only get 9.5ml out of a vial of testosterone as some always gets stuck in the syringe bubble. What happens if you spill a few Clomid down the drain on accident. What if you drop a pin on the floor, you will have to toss it. See where I am going here?

 

[Mags]

Wow, very well thought out! Looks good!

I personally like to keep extra of everyting on hand because you will likely need it. For example most guys can only get 9.5ml out of a vial of testosterone as some always gets stuck in the syringe bubble. What happens if you spill a few Clomid down the drain on accident. What if you drop a pin on the floor, you will have to toss it. See where I am going here?

Yeah, I was trying to work out the minimum of what I needed so I knew what sort of amounts I was ordering (and so when I talk to the guy at the gym he doesn't try and sell me a ton of stuff I'll not need). And, like you said, most of the stuff I'll pick up will be in set amounts packs, I imagine. Will defo get extra bits so I don't run out. I can always save any useable leftovers for another possible cycle.

 

[Mags]

Your plasma levels will flux and you want to avoid that. /V

Why is this detrimental? I can understand fluctuating doses could be bad, but steadily building them upwards seems logical. I'm not disputing your understanding, as mine is very limited here, but would be good if you could elaborate a little.

Cheers.

 

[DaBeast25]

Wow, very well thought out! Looks good!

I personally like to keep extra of everyting on hand because you will likely need it. For example most guys can only get 9.5ml out of a vial of testosterone as some always gets stuck in the syringe bubble. What happens if you spill a few Clomid down the drain on accident. What if you drop a pin on the floor, you will have to toss it. See where I am going here?

kinda like me spilling 1/2 an amp of test p on my leg 3 days ago, lol. Luckily I have more test than I really need

 

[revolution187]

hey to get the most out of ur vial suck up some vit b12(1/4cc) first then suck up test so if anything gets wasted its just b12 which costs 5 bucks a vial

 

[Buzzard]

hey to get the most out of ur vial suck up some vit b12(1/4cc) first then suck up test so if anything gets wasted its just b12 which costs 5 bucks a vial

The B12 will stay at the bottom (last thing out of the syringe)? If that's true... Seems like a sweet idea.

 

[ZECH]

For a first cycle, I dont think you need to go that high. You will see very good results at 500mg and that will give you room in the future to increase dosage if needed.

 

[Pirate!]

For a first cycle, I dont think you need to go that high. You will see very good results at 500mg and that will give you room in the future to increase dosage if needed.

I second that.

You could add an oral. Prohormones like H-Drol go well with Test.

Way too much HCG at the end. Refer to the link in my sig.

Have more Aromasin on hand.

 

[Iron Dragon]

The reasoning behind your cycle is understandable. However I feel that going up that high on the test is a bit much.

Instead, I would keep the test at about 600mg ew the entire time, and add in NPP for the last 6 weeks. You could add a bulking oral in place of NPP like drol of dbol, but the NPP will give you the added benefit of increased collagen synthesis.

 

[Mags]

You could add an oral. Prohormones like H-Drol go well with Test.

How does H-drol work well with test? Is it because the difference in compound structure makes them effectively synergistic together or something else? Also, would you still run standard doses?

Have more Aromasin on hand.

Is this to counter any excessive estrogen sides, or for some other reason? Another thing regarding estrogen management when on cycle: I'm happy to take on a bit of bloat from water, but don't want to resemble a walking hot-water bottle or incur too many of its sides - am I right in that added water weight increases bp?

Cheers.

 

[martialartsman]

JMO but i would stick to same amount of test through out, i have done many cycles and the last i upped the dose and to be honest i didnt see or feel much of a difference apart from in my pocket....JMO like i said. Good luck anyway mate.

 

[heavyiron]

The reasoning behind your cycle is understandable. However I feel that going up that high on the test is a bit much.

Instead, I would keep the test at about 600mg ew the entire time, and add in NPP for the last 6 weeks. You could add a bulking oral in place of NPP like drol of dbol, but the NPP will give you the added benefit of increased collagen synthesis.

Using several compounds on a first cycle can be problematic. If he develops sides he will not know which compound is causing them. Additionally Nandrolone has been linked to libido issues so for a first run I would advise against it. If he uses nandrolone he will likely need another med to control the progesterone sides which may be a bit much the first time around.

I like his cycle design as I have done over 20 similar cycles except at higher doses. My first cycle I increased dose every week until I hit around 1,500mg weekly. The gains were dramatic to say the least.

 

[heavyiron]

For a first cycle, I dont think you need to go that high. You will see very good results at 500mg and that will give you room in the future to increase dosage if needed.

Please explain your reasoning for this statement. I have experienced the exact oppositte many times.

 

[ZECH]

Please explain your reasoning for this statement. I have experienced the exact oppositte many times.

Opposite as in how?
If you start at a high dose say 750mg/wk, do you think most people see the same gains next time around at 500mgs? I don't. Most people including myself have to go with higher doses to see the same gains. Then you are just asking for problems with sides if you really dont know what you are doing. And most people are not experts with anabolics and when you add in multiple compounds, how do you know exactly which compound is causing the problem and what do you take for that problem without causing a problem somewhere else? (as you posted in previous psot) I am also a believer that upping the dose on every single cycle is not needed. I have seen many guys never go above 500-750mg/wk. Training and diet mean as much as the drugs do. They can always be tweaked to get gains.

 

[Iron Dragon]

Using several compounds on a first cycle can be problematic. If he develops sides he will not know which compound is causing them. Additionally Nandrolone has been linked to libido issues so for a first run I would advise against it. If he uses nandrolone he will likely need another med to control the progesterone sides which may be a bit much the first time around.

I like his cycle design as I have done over 20 similar cycles except at higher doses. My first cycle I increased dose every week until I hit around 1,500mg weekly. The gains were dramatic to say the least.

I understand where your coming from, but the strength gains and decreased collagen synthesis, which is dose dependent, could lead to injury with that much test on a first run. I think adding npp at 300mg ew is low enough to not cause any libido problems, increase collagen synthesis, and have very little sides. Of course if goes with cyop or enanthate, I would add deca over NPP. Anavar could also be a viable option. I just think that to over come the slowing of gains, you can add a compound rather than continuously upping the test dose.

However, if you have a good strong foundation, he may be able to get a way with just testosterone and avoid some of the problems I Mentioned. Just different opinions I guess.

 

[heavyiron]

Opposite as in how?
If you start at a high dose say 750mg/wk, do you think most people see the same gains next time around at 500mgs? I don't. Most people including myself have to go with higher doses to see the same gains. Then you are just asking for problems with sides if you really dont know what you are doing. And most people are not experts with anabolics and when you add in multiple compounds, how do you know exactly which compound is causing the problem and what do you take for that problem without causing a problem somewhere else? (as you posted in previous psot) I am also a believer that upping the dose on every single cycle is not needed. I have seen many guys never go above 500-750mg/wk. Training and diet mean as much as the drugs do. They can always be tweaked to get gains.

According to you I will not see gains if I don't use my max previous dose of 2,600mg weekly but yet I can make gains with much less mg weekly. I think the thread parrots have been spreading the myth that once you use a high dose you can never return to lower doses for gains. That is not true.

 

[Mags]

I just think that to over come the slowing of gains, you can add a compound rather than continuously upping the test dose.

I assumed this was the norm regarding the progression of AAS use: increase the doses or try/add new compound(s) to see greater results.

However, if you have a good strong foundation, he may be able to get a way with just testosterone and avoid some of the problems I Mentioned. Just different opinions I guess.

Despite having dabbled with PHs and weaker steroids, I have always put off doing 'proper' juice until I felt my physical potential was reached, my body was used to lifting heavy poundages, and gaining and keeping weight was achievable. I've lifted for almost 10 years now and have always had labour-intensive jobs since I was 14. Therefore, I feel I have a strong frame with muscles, tendons and ligaments familiar to strenuous activity. Hopefully that previous sentence isn't tempting fate. :/

 

[jcar1016]

According to you I will not see gains if I don't use my max previous dose of 2,600mg weekly but yet I can make gains with much less mg weekly. I think the thread parrots have been spreading the myth that once you use a high dose you can never return to lower doses for gains. That is not true.

Although I have no medical backround as heavy and dragon do I must agree with with heavy. I have always held the belief that the purpose of pct and off cycling was to restore ones body to a natural hormonal balance. If this is done correctly in theory one should be able to get the same benifits from the same dose time and time again as there is no real "tolerance" to hormones like there is with other drugs. If someone were continually cycling test at higher and lower doses I would expect that there would be some sort of significant flucuation in the effects since you never really restored the proper levels to begin with.

 

[Mags]

Using several compounds on a first cycle can be problematic. If he develops sides he will not know which compound is causing them. Additionally Nandrolone has been linked to libido issues so for a first run I would advise against it. If he uses nandrolone he will likely need another med to control the progesterone sides which may be a bit much the first time around.

I like his cycle design as I have done over 20 similar cycles except at higher doses. My first cycle I increased dose every week until I hit around 1,500mg weekly. The gains were dramatic to say the least.

This is why I wanted to keep it just test. I feel that with the HCG and Aromasin in addition, I???ll already feel like a walking chemistry set (a daft notion to those of you who have cycled combinations of stronger compounds, I???m sure). And like Heavy mentioned, if there are any problems, I want to keep the culprit choices down to a minimum. I won???t be kick-starting with the likes of dbol or drol, either. can see the added benefits of Deca and the like for joints and collagen, too, but I???d rather keep this cycle as simple as possible. I know the high doses toward the end of the cycle doesn???t give the impression of one trying to keep it simple or being cautious, but I want to be as safe, as straightforward and as organised as possible.

 

[ZECH]

According to you I will not see gains if I don't use my max previous dose of 2,600mg weekly but yet I can make gains with much less mg weekly. I think the thread parrots have been spreading the myth that once you use a high dose you can never return to lower doses for gains. That is not true.

Where in my quote did I say you could not make gains? I said your gains would not be as great (same gains)as with a higher doseage. Big difference. Sure you make gains on smaller quantities.
Of course you want the same gains or bigger on each cycle. But in reality that doesnt happen each time and giving people the advice to up the dosage to these levels is just plain bad advice unless you are pro caliber and I dont see any on this board. Sorry JMO.

 

[Mags]

I am going to prepare the cycle to suit the design (as if to increase the doses at time progresses). However, it all depends on how I get on during the cycle regarding gains and sides that will determine if I go higher or not. Like I mentioned in the the initial post, if all's going well and sides aren't too much of a factor, then I might increase the dose. However, if gains are still coming thick and fast, then I the higher doses might seem superflous. So, in short, I'll go with the increased dose cycle design, but will wait and see when on the cycle whether I deviate from it and stick with the straight 500-600mg flat over the 10 weeks.

Cheers for the array of interest and advice, folks.

 

[jcar1016]

Its never a good sign when the mods argue

 

[Mags]

Its never a good sign when the mods argue

Can we call it a heated debate instead? Both have an wealth of knowledge and experience, yet different views on this particular topic. While each can accept valid points from the one another, I'm guessing this will only be settled by 'agreeing to disagree'.

I've tried to appease all parties with my previous post, so hopefully that'll halt a further clash of the titans .

In all seriousness, though - and in fairness to Heavy - this is is a suggested cycle for those who want to get more out of their first cycle. However, the main cycle he advises in his thread is closer to the more common 10-week flat cycle at 600mg EW. Which, I guess, makes me the irresponsible and foolish one if I decide to ignore the suggested warnings. I understand taking AAS is serious stuff. And I will do my utmost to ensure my health isn't jeopardised.

Thanks for all the input, I'll give it all some serious consideration.

Cheers.

 

[Arnold]

its never a good sign when the mods argue

why? Do you think because they are mods they will agree on everything?

 

[heavyiron]

Where in my quote did I say you could not make gains? I said your gains would not be as great (same gains)as with a higher doseage. Big difference. Sure you make gains on smaller quantities.
Of course you want the same gains or bigger on each cycle. But in reality that doesnt happen each time and giving people the advice to up the dosage to these levels is just plain bad advice unless you are pro caliber and I dont see any on this board. Sorry JMO.

But the gains can be as great or even greater. I have seen it over and over again during the last 22 years of my own use and those who use around me. I have probably somewhere around 50 guys and gals that are personal friends of mine that are on aas right now. Not people on the net, actual friends. I have a pretty large number of friends that compete on the local level as well as the national level. Bodybuilders, figure girls, strongman, and power lifters. I am a chem advisor on various boards including private invite only forums. I see this stuff everyday and I know for a fact that you are wrong. Its not your fault you have believed the thread parrots because they are everywhere. I have run more drugs personally than most guys will their entire lives. I am a walking chemistry experiment. I use drugs just to see what they will do and record it in a diary. I have been in literally thousands of consults on aas on the net. My PM box at most sites hold 2,000 PMs and I have to dump them monthly. I imagine not a single person on this board has consulted as many guys and gals that I have. Not only do I possess a high level of experience in this field I have also studied the science behind it extensively. I let misinformation slide everyday on this board because most people pushing it don't want to know the tuth. They just want to spout off the same crap every thread parrot spews on every other site. Guess who site owners PM when they want the answers? Guess who the site owners e-mail when they need emergency aas advice. Nearly every site I have led on I am asked by the mods or owners what to do when it comes to aas application. Seriously, who do you think you are to tell me what bad advice is? Have you run drugs for over 22 years? How many cycles have you run and recorded the results in a diary or spreadsheet? How many competitors do you advise? How many chem sections do you lead at on the net? How many chem sections have you built? I realize you may not know me but those who do listen.

Mags can PM me or Dragon anytime during his course. If he has a problem we will help him get on track. A gram a week is childs play if you know how to manage the sides. Do you know how to manage them?

Sorry but I can't take the misinformation today.

 

[jcar1016]

why? Do you think because they are mods they will agree on everything?

But the gains can be as great or even greater. I have seen it over and over again during the last 22 years of my own use and those who use around me. I have probably somewhere around 50 guys and gals that are personal friends of mine that are on aas right now. Not people on the net, actual friends. I have a pretty large number of friends that compete on the local level as well as the national level. Bodybuilders, figure girls, strongman, and power lifters. I am a chem advisor on various boards including private invite only forums. I see this stuff everyday and I know for a fact that you are wrong. Its not your fault you have believed the thread parrots because they are everywhere. I have run more drugs personally than most guys will their entire lives. I am a walking chemistry experiment. I use drugs just to see what they will do and record it in a diary. I have been in literally thousands of consults on aas on the net. My PM box at most sites hold 2,000 PMs and I have to dump them monthly. I imagine not a single person on this board has consulted as many guys and gals that I have. Not only do I possess a high level of experience in this field I have also studied the science behind it extensively. I let misinformation slide everyday on this board because most people pushing it don't want to know the tuth. They just want to spout off the same crap every thread parrot spews on every other site. Guess who site owners PM when they want the answers? Guess who the site owners e-mail when they need emergency aas advice. Nearly every site I have led on I am asked by the mods or owners what to do when it comes to aas application. Seriously, who do you think you are to tell me what bad advice is? Have you run drugs for over 22 years? How many cycles have you run and recorded the results in a diary or spreadsheet? How many competitors do you advise? How many chem sections do you lead at on the net? How many chem sections have you built? I realize you may not know me but those who do listen.

Mags can PM me or Dragon anytime during his course. If he has a problem we will help him get on track. A gram a week is childs play if you know how to manage the sides. Do you know how to manage them?

Sorry but I can't take the misinformation today. It just irritates me to see constant unfounded info on this board.

This is why robert because two good guys like heavy and dg are at each other and of course I dont think the mods all agree then we would only need 1 right?

 

[weldingman]

A gram a week is childs play if you know how to manage the sides.

I agree totally. +1^