Trying to find the right PCT
Trying to find the right PCT
I have a couple questions about the pct on my next cycle I am planning. I was a lost soul a couple years ago when I used to cycle. I had never really done "hard" research about cycling aas. Meaning that I would listen to so-called gurus on the fact and from doing my research these last 2 years I found out that I was really playing with fire. The "gurus" had never mentioned anything about PCT or anything of the like, but I am a man and take all responsibility on myself for taking someones word and not researching myself. First off I started when I was young. I did 2 cycles when I was 21 and then I havent done it since. I saw great gains and by the grace of God I never had any negative sides except lowered sex drive which I recovered about 3 months after each cycle. At the time I knew the substance only as Test. I never knew of any other type of AAS or that there were different esters of test or even what an ester was. I felt I was really naive at the time and refuse to be blind again. After doing alot of research I feel that I am ready to step on the field again and do it correctly. I am now 26 and have been lifting avidly for the last two years. I am 6ft and about 240 lbs and figure my bodyfat is about 13%-14%. Before the last two years I had taken about 18 mos off from lifting after I broke my ankle playing football.
My diet consists of about 7 meals a day.
8am 2 bowls of oats, and 2 eggs. 2 servings of milk
10am Protein bar 2 servings of milk
12pm Usually beans rice and pork, chicken, steak 2 servings of milk
2pm Almonds and Granola Cereal 2 servings of milk
4pm pre wo shake and tuna 2 servings of milk
6pm Post wo shake and 4 hb eggs 2 servings of milk
8pm Beans Rice pork, chicken, steak 2 servings of milk
I drink about a gallon and a half of water a day and 1 day during the week I gorge on whatever I want to eat mainly consisting of alot of carbs and green vegetables. I eat multivitamin and ZMA daily.
For my workout routine for this cycle will be compound workout in a 7x7 german volume training.
I want my cycle to consist of:
TP-10 weeks at 100mg eod
TA-first 8 weeks at 50mg eod
My biggest problem is finding proper PCT. I want everything to be correct because I feel like I have pushed my luck to the limit. I feel that now that I know better and were to neglect PCT murphy's law would get me. There are so many rules, and theories to the subject.
I have gotten as far as:
A-dex-.5mg ed for 4 weeks
HCG thru out the cycle starting at week 2 500 iu's ew until week 10 of cycle
I know it seems that I havent gotten very far, and I would add Nolva but from what I read it isnt a good idea to mix the substances of nolva and tren. I would use clomid but it seems inferior to nolva. I really appreciate any info and criticism. I know that my past experiences were dodgy but I cant change the past. All I can do is take proper precautions for the future. Thanks again guys for reading my book. LOL
I tried to answer all questions that I read in the stickies before posting for cycle advice.
Sorry If I missed any rules.
Drop the tren since this is your first cycle in ages.
Does anyone have any parts to my PCT puzzle
First I would like to commend you for the research you have done thus far and on your very well put together diet plan. But I have to question your choice of compounds. As was mentioned tren can be very tricky even for people who have used it before. Besides that with the tren and prop thats a hell of a lot of pinning, are you up for all those shots? You may be better off with long esters like test-E or cyp. Non the less your question was about PCT. There are some good sticky's on this but I will give you my ideas. Most run a PCT for 4-6 weeks. Some start with their clomid higher the first week or two and then taper down to 50mgs for the remainder. On the nolvadex from my readings I have concluded that more than 20mgs has no extra benefit. So your basic PCT could be like this...100mgs clomid, first week and then 50mgs clomid for another four weeks. Nolvadex 20mgs for all four weeks and if you like another week at 10mgs just to taper down. You will find after more research of your own that some just use clomid by itself while other use clomid at higher doses say 150, 100 and then go to 50. But I think what I layed out for you is pretty basic and should work well. The prop is great for a kicker. Just my opinion and food for thought bro.
Thanks alot Roaddkingg. I will try to elaborate on the reasoning on the compounds I have chosen and my method of use. The TP and TA were chosen for short esters. Should I run tren weeks 2-8 to pinpoint any side effects to tren? I chose to pin the ace eod to keep the amount of tren in my body as consistent as possible which I have read helps reduce sides. I would pin everyday if it would help reduce sides but I feel that eod should be sufficient.
imo the tren is at a very low dose for eod. the pct that roadking gave is right on and he knows his stuff. i would u run the hcg e5d instead of every 7. but make sure you explain the short ester, because i think it would be easier to use longer esters and drop the tren. it makes sense that you want the short ester for tren in case of negative sides. but between the hcg prop and tren thats alot of pinning!
good luck bro
I read your reply and went back and re-read your plan for a 10 week cycle and I still dont quite understand your reasoning. Your theory is you want to do short esters for the entire cycle as you were saying if you get sides you can determine whats causeing them. It seems to me (IMO) you could use the prop for a while in the beginning like say 4-6 weeks along with say test-E or cyp would make a good cycle. Then at the end while you have a 14 day window as the test ester is clearing you could hit the prop again right up until day before your PCT starts. You would be getting the best of everything here without the tren and a whole hell of a lot less pins. I believe you said you were going to do 500iu's total of HCG throughout. Thats good 250iu's 2x per week. Starting in week two. Perhaps someone who has done tren and prop together for a entire cycle can give you better advice but I am a firm believer that longer ester compounds are more of a body builders friend. Short esters are great for fronts or rears. With what I have layed out here you most likely would not get any bad sides as long as you had your ai's in place.
I have done long cycles with short esters all the way through. Only "disadvantage" was the ED/EOD pinning.
Ok well I am going to drop the tren and going to go with your plan Roaddkingg.
Looks to me that you are doing a couple of things correctly. You did some nice research before posting, and you are listening to the advice presented here. Hope your cycle goes well-good luck!
With an open mind like that you will have no problem succeeding bro. Good luck and keep us posted!
Thanks again to all who helped.
You'r very welcome
Now that you have decided on a cycle plan make sure you have quality test-E or cyp and figure out your doses. Since this is really your first well put together cycle perhaps 500mgs per week divided in two pins would work. OR..since you are doing the prop along with the test Eor cyp for the first 4-6 weeks perhaps one pin of that with your other splits of prop could save you some pinning in the beginning and then after the prop fronts you could go back to the double pins for the test-E or cyp. Now have you decided are you going to use arimadex or aromasin? Adex can be used EOD while aromasin has to be used daily. Figure that dose out correctly. Adex could be .5 Ed or EOD. Most people find that aromasin at 25mgs works best while others can get away with 12.5. You figure all that out. Then make certain you have all thats needed for a proper PCT. Clomid and nolvadex are what I use together. Some just like to use clomid by itself but remember with high doses of clomid you can have sides. I'm doing mine presently at 50mgs, 4 weeks, nolvadex 20mgs 4 weeks and then a taper for another week at 10mgs. This is all personal choice and some start with their clomid much higher. Read up my friend and you make these decisions and make adjustments where needed.
x2 you seem to doing everything very intelligently. i wish more newbies would read this post its a great example of how to research and then put up a quality post with great advice given by our vet members.
good luck bro
Originally Posted by MDR
Sorry for not responding sooner. I have had to work some crazy hours and dont go to this board at work.
Here is what I have derived from the sound advice given:
ADEX .25-.50 ran throughout weeks 1-12
TP- EOD 100mgs
TE- E3D 250mgs
HCG- E3D 250iu
TE- E3D 250mgs
TP- EOD 100mgs
PCT Starting Week 13-16
CLOMID 100/50/50/20 adjusted depending on recovery
Any other adjustments needed?
I was going to go with Naps for everything except the TP which I am going to brew myself. Anyone have any discount codes for them?
I like the way you decided to taper your clomid. Thats somewhat typical of what a lot of guys do. The HCG you might start in the second week rather than third. You plan on the test-P only for the front two and the rear two? Thats ok but you could go three in front and give the enathate a bit more time to start kicking in. I think you will really like useing the prop at the end also. It will keep you full and strong right up until PCT. You have really thought this out well and I sure commend you on that. Going to brew your own prop huh? Ok. There are several reasons I tried to talk you out of useing tren. It's a tricky compound it could give you bad night sweats, it could give you gyno which you would need very differant meds to combat. IMO it takes much more experience to use correctly. Some of my buds love it but then they been doing AAS for 20+ years. I'm staying clear of it myself, same with deca. Good luck and I hope we hear much more from you as your cycle progresses.
An article I found a while back:
Clomid, Nolvadex and HCG in Post Cycle Recovery
By Bigfella & PartyBoy - MuscleTalk Moderators
One of the most frequently asked questions on MuscleTalk is how to use properly use the post cycle therapy (PCT) drugs Clomid, Nolvadex and HCG correctly.
(A note to Americans - when I say 'oestrogen' I mean 'estrogen' - we spell it correctly in the UK!)
Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic estrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.
Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.
Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimize post cycle muscle losses.
Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.
Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.
It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.
Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.
Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).
This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.
Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids, the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.
Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.
When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.
As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.
The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.
Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks
How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.
How to take Nolvadex for PCT
As an alternative to Clomid, which has been reported to have led to unwanted side effects such as visual disturbances in some users, Nolvadex can be employed. Nolvadex is a trade name for the drug Tamoxifen. Like Clomid, the half life of Nolvadex is relatively long enabling the user to implement a single daily dosing schedule. Administration would start as per the timescales outlined above and the duration would be identical to that of Clomid.
Typically, for a moderate-heavy cycle, the following dosages would be used:
Day 1 - 100mg
Following 10 days - 60mg
Following 10 days - 40mg
Occasionally, heavier cycles containing perhaps Nandrolone (Deca) or Trenbolone which by definition are particularly suppressive of the HPTA, may require a slightly longer therapy. Likewise, more modest/shorter cycles may require lower dosages, perhaps dropping each by 20mg per day.
Some users like to use both Clomid and Nolvadex in their PCT in an attempt to cover all angles. An example of the dosages involved might be:
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 40mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg or Nolvadex 20mg
Of course, the examples provided are not set in stone and may be adjusted depending on the factors outlined above and individual variances.
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
It is important for the HCG administration to have been completed with 6 or 7 clear days before the onset of PCT in order to avoid inhibition of the Nolvadex and/or Clomid therapy. Also, a small daily dose (10-20mg) of Nolvadex would normally be used in conjunction with HCG in order to prevent oestrogenic symptoms caused by sudden increases in aromatisation.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.
Summary and Presentation of Clomid and HCG
Clomid and/or Nolvadex are more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid and/or Nolvadex therapy.
Clomid is available in 50mg tablets most commonly, but also comes in 25mg capsule, often in boxes of 24 tablets. Tamoxifen is made by a number of manufacturers and comes in 10mg or 20mg tablets, most commonly 30 x 20mg tablets. HCG generally comes in kits of three ampoules of powder needing to be mixed with the provided injectable water as 1500IU, 2500IU or 5000IU per ampoule kits.
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Just letting you know, I ordered from Naps on 14 May, and eveything came in by the 29th. I havent pinned it yet, so I can't comment on how good it is, but the ISN numbers all matched up on Geneza as legit.
Originally Posted by BigBoiH
I dont have any codes, just giving you my (limited) experience with Naps.
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