Short ester vs long ester

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 42
  1. #1
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    Short ester vs long ester

    Hey, I was wondering what the pros and cons would be of running short ester gear for long durations (8 weeks or more) instead of long ester gear. I.e. test prop, tren ace, anavar, halo. I know gear like test testosterone enanthate and equipose need long cycles, but are there pros or cons to running short ester gear for long cycles? I know there would have to be more frequent injections, and the user would notice gains faster, is there anything else?
    Last edited by GH Consigliere; 03-03-2011 at 07:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Keep your fucking mouth shut
    Posts
    394

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    24210246

    Did you just have a conversion with yourself?

  3. #3
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    No it was a conversation with some else fig i post it will fix it.
    Last edited by GH Consigliere; 03-03-2011 at 07:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    .

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Grozny's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    South Park, CO
    Posts
    1,636

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    121636171


    Quote Originally Posted by Chino0823 View Post
    Hey, I was wondering what the pros and cons would be of running short ester gear for long durations (8 weeks or more) instead of long ester gear. I.e. test prop, tren ace, anavar, halo. I know gear like test testosterone enanthate and equipose need long cycles, but are there pros or cons to running short ester gear for long cycles? I know there would have to be more frequent injections, and the user would notice gains faster, is there anything else?
    Short Esters Are Better Esters

    Perhaps the most important thing is that short-chain esters (steroids of shorter half life) yield a much higher plasma concentration of steroid than steroids of longer side chain esters.

    In some study, a single 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone decanoate.
    This level remained increased for almost seven days, too. By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

    This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enanthate per week probably won’t be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone propionate or even Testosterone suspension per week. I’m going to see better results with the propionate and even better results with the suspension. Sure, I may need to inject the propionate and suspension more often, but in the long run it’ll pay off for me.
    FCBARCELONA

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Grozny's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    South Park, CO
    Posts
    1,636

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    121636171


    These assays all show that the half-lifes and clearence-time as we know them, don't actually exist. And that all suggestions made like b.e. in this thread are highly dependant on the carrier that is used to deliver the steroid. The half-life of a steroid is dependant on the estrification, the longer the ester chain the longer the bloodenzymes need to free the molecule (evasion time), but the invasion time (the time the steroid need to free itself from the oily depot into the watery blood ) is strongly dependant on the carrier/solvents. And the total half-life is the combination invasiontime-evasiontime.

    The purpose of this thread is to provide some basic information on frontloading, including an explanation of half-lives, differences across esters, and recommended frontloading dosages.

    HALF-LIFE BASICS

    Each compound includes an ester that, along with other factors, controls the release of the hormone into the system. The rate of release differs by ester and is defined in terms of half-life. The average half-lives of esters are:

    ESTER HALF LIFE (days)

    Formate 1.5
    Acetate 3
    Propionate 4.5
    Butyrate 6
    Valerate 7.5
    Hexanoate 9
    Caproate 9
    Isocaproate 9
    Heptanoate 10.5
    Enanthate 10.5
    Octanoate 12
    Cypionate 12
    Nonanoate 13.5
    Decanoate 15
    Undecanoate 16.5

    The half-life is the length of time (in days) to release half of the hormone into the system. For example, if 500 mgs of Testosterone Cypionate is administered, in 12 days, on average, 250 mgs of testosterone has been released into the system and 250 mgs of testosterone remains attached to the ester. In another 12 days, an additional 125 mgs (half of the remaining 250 mgs) has been released into the system for a total of 375 mgs released and 125 mgs still attached to the ester. The key detail is that different esters release the hormone into the system at different rates. Therefore, different esters require different frontload dosages.

    FRONTLOADING

    The purpose of frontloading is to quickly reach the target dosage to more quickly realize the benefits of the AAS. This thread provides instructions to reach 75% of the weekly dosage within the first week

    Most people use, as a rule of thumb, twice the weekly dosage (double dosing) in the first week. That works well for esters with a half-life of 10.5 days or less. However, this does not work well for longer esters. Let’s look at EQ as an example. If the intended weekly dosage is 600 mgs, then the frontload dosage, based on double dosing, is 1200 mgs. Although 50% of the intended dosage is reached in the first week, 75% of the intended dosage is not reached until week 4. Without any frontloading, 75% of the intended dosage is reached in week 5. So, while ‘double dosing’ works, the effects diminish with increasing half-life.

    EQ Double Dose Values at 600 mgs (1200 mgs in Week 1)

    No Frontload
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 153… 25%
    Week 2 267… 44%
    Week 3 352… 59%
    Week 4 415… 69%
    Week 5 462… 77%
    Week 6 497… 83%

    Double Dosing
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 306… 51%
    Week 2 381… 63%
    Week 3 437… 73%
    Week 4 478… 80%
    Week 5 509… 85%
    Week 6 532… 89%



    The following table includes frontloading dosage to reach 75% of the intended dosage by the end of the first week. The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

    ESTER FRONTLOAD DOSAGE(mgs)

    Formate 100
    Acetate 100
    Propionate 115
    Butyrate 130
    Valerate 160
    Hexanoate 180
    Caproate 180
    Isocaproate 180
    Heptanoate 200
    Enanthate 200
    Octanoate 225
    Cypionate 225
    Nonanoate 250
    Decanoate 270
    Undecanoate 295


    The calculation used is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL), where:

    MgDL = Mgs of depot left
    MgD = Mgs in depot (total)
    D = Days
    H = Half-life

    Injections for Formate and Acetate are daily. Injections for Propianate are every other day. Injections for Butyrate are every 3 days. All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.
    FCBARCELONA

  7. #7
    Be Genetically Different
    BOARD REP
    blazeftp's Avatar


    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The Zone.
    Posts
    1,810

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    192574525


    Fuck it do a 16 weeks short ester cycle.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    Lol

  9. #9
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    California
    Posts
    62

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    929693

    Quote Originally Posted by Grozny View Post
    These assays all show that the half-lifes and clearence-time as we know them, don't actually exist. And that all suggestions made like b.e. in this thread are highly dependant on the carrier that is used to deliver the steroid. The half-life of a steroid is dependant on the estrification, the longer the ester chain the longer the bloodenzymes need to free the molecule (evasion time), but the invasion time (the time the steroid need to free itself from the oily depot into the watery blood ) is strongly dependant on the carrier/solvents. And the total half-life is the combination invasiontime-evasiontime.

    The purpose of this thread is to provide some basic information on frontloading, including an explanation of half-lives, differences across esters, and recommended frontloading dosages.

    HALF-LIFE BASICS

    Each compound includes an ester that, along with other factors, controls the release of the hormone into the system. The rate of release differs by ester and is defined in terms of half-life. The average half-lives of esters are:

    ESTER HALF LIFE (days)

    Formate 1.5
    Acetate 3
    Propionate 4.5
    Butyrate 6
    Valerate 7.5
    Hexanoate 9
    Caproate 9
    Isocaproate 9
    Heptanoate 10.5
    Enanthate 10.5
    Octanoate 12
    Cypionate 12
    Nonanoate 13.5
    Decanoate 15
    Undecanoate 16.5

    The half-life is the length of time (in days) to release half of the hormone into the system. For example, if 500 mgs of Testosterone Cypionate is administered, in 12 days, on average, 250 mgs of testosterone has been released into the system and 250 mgs of testosterone remains attached to the ester. In another 12 days, an additional 125 mgs (half of the remaining 250 mgs) has been released into the system for a total of 375 mgs released and 125 mgs still attached to the ester. The key detail is that different esters release the hormone into the system at different rates. Therefore, different esters require different frontload dosages.

    FRONTLOADING

    The purpose of frontloading is to quickly reach the target dosage to more quickly realize the benefits of the AAS. This thread provides instructions to reach 75% of the weekly dosage within the first week

    Most people use, as a rule of thumb, twice the weekly dosage (double dosing) in the first week. That works well for esters with a half-life of 10.5 days or less. However, this does not work well for longer esters. Let’s look at EQ as an example. If the intended weekly dosage is 600 mgs, then the frontload dosage, based on double dosing, is 1200 mgs. Although 50% of the intended dosage is reached in the first week, 75% of the intended dosage is not reached until week 4. Without any frontloading, 75% of the intended dosage is reached in week 5. So, while ‘double dosing’ works, the effects diminish with increasing half-life.

    EQ Double Dose Values at 600 mgs (1200 mgs in Week 1)

    No Frontload
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 153… 25%
    Week 2 267… 44%
    Week 3 352… 59%
    Week 4 415… 69%
    Week 5 462… 77%
    Week 6 497… 83%

    Double Dosing
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 306… 51%
    Week 2 381… 63%
    Week 3 437… 73%
    Week 4 478… 80%
    Week 5 509… 85%
    Week 6 532… 89%



    The following table includes frontloading dosage to reach 75% of the intended dosage by the end of the first week. The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

    ESTER FRONTLOAD DOSAGE(mgs)

    Formate 100
    Acetate 100
    Propionate 115
    Butyrate 130
    Valerate 160
    Hexanoate 180
    Caproate 180
    Isocaproate 180
    Heptanoate 200
    Enanthate 200
    Octanoate 225
    Cypionate 225
    Nonanoate 250
    Decanoate 270
    Undecanoate 295


    The calculation used is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL), where:

    MgDL = Mgs of depot left
    MgD = Mgs in depot (total)
    D = Days
    H = Half-life

    Injections for Formate and Acetate are daily. Injections for Propianate are every other day. Injections for Butyrate are every 3 days. All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.
    This should be a sticky. This is awesome info that I personally have never heard before.

  10. #10
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    Good money

  11. #11
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    California
    Posts
    62

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    929693

    Ok, so I took all of this information and put it in a cheatsheet for myself, but decided to upload it too so that you bro's could use it if you wanted to too. How it works, edit the info in the green squares with your info. For example if you're going for 600mg a week of Cyp you'd put 600 in cell G2 and 12 in cell H2. If you decide to frontload in the first week you can enter the amount you're front loading in week 0 in H5 and you'll see how the frontloading will affect your cycle.

    I uploaded a picture for those that are curious. This is an Excel 2007 document.

    EDIT: I just did Grozny's example for Cyp which works out pretty much perfectly. Fuck me I wish I had this info sooner.

    EDIT2: I used this formula to calculate the halflives in the spreadsheet and it seemed to line up with Grozny's numbers:

    Ending Amount = Beginning Amount/(2^(Elapsed Time/Half-Life))

    http://www.filedropper.com/halflife-cheatsheet_1
    Last edited by tigershark1; 03-04-2011 at 01:31 PM.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    Will look into it

  13. #13
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,663

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    106134092


    Quote Originally Posted by Grozny View Post
    The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

    . . . All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.
    Wow, that is a lot to inject in one injection at the beginning of week one. 1800 mg of a 200 mg/ml Cyp would be 9 ml, basically the entire vial! How do you inject that in one injection?

  14. #14
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    California
    Posts
    62

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    929693

    Quote Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
    Wow, that is a lot to inject in one injection at the beginning of week one. 1800 mg of a 200 mg/ml Cyp would be 9 ml, basically the entire vial! How do you inject that in one injection?
    I was thinking the same thing, but the math doesn't lie. I assume you'd split that up 4 ways and go to town on glutes and quads.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    GH Consigliere's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Iron mag
    Posts
    4,406

    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Rep Points
    98224116


    Humm

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-06-2011, 07:37 PM
  2. Short -ester dilema
    By pdog781 in forum Anabolic Zone
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-15-2011, 10:18 AM
  3. Long Esters followed by Short ester Cycle
    By theHammer in forum Anabolic Zone
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-17-2008, 06:25 AM
  4. short ester cycle
    By BigPapaPump68 in forum Anabolic Zone
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 09-29-2006, 10:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Copyright© 2001-2017 IronMag® Bodybuilding Forums