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Short ester vs long ester

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    Short ester vs long ester






    Hey, I was wondering what the pros and cons would be of running short ester gear for long durations (8 weeks or more) instead of long ester gear. I.e. test prop, tren ace, anavar, halo. I know gear like test testosterone enanthate and equipose need long cycles, but are there pros or cons to running short ester gear for long cycles? I know there would have to be more frequent injections, and the user would notice gains faster, is there anything else?
    Last edited by GH Consigliere; 03-03-2011 at 07:00 PM.

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    Did you just have a conversion with yourself?

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    No it was a conversation with some else fig i post it will fix it.
    Last edited by GH Consigliere; 03-03-2011 at 07:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chino0823 View Post
    Hey, I was wondering what the pros and cons would be of running short ester gear for long durations (8 weeks or more) instead of long ester gear. I.e. test prop, tren ace, anavar, halo. I know gear like test testosterone enanthate and equipose need long cycles, but are there pros or cons to running short ester gear for long cycles? I know there would have to be more frequent injections, and the user would notice gains faster, is there anything else?
    Short Esters Are Better Esters

    Perhaps the most important thing is that short-chain esters (steroids of shorter half life) yield a much higher plasma concentration of steroid than steroids of longer side chain esters.

    In some study, a single 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone decanoate.
    This level remained increased for almost seven days, too. By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

    This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enanthate per week probably won’t be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone propionate or even Testosterone suspension per week. I’m going to see better results with the propionate and even better results with the suspension. Sure, I may need to inject the propionate and suspension more often, but in the long run it’ll pay off for me.
    FCBARCELONA

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    These assays all show that the half-lifes and clearence-time as we know them, don't actually exist. And that all suggestions made like b.e. in this thread are highly dependant on the carrier that is used to deliver the steroid. The half-life of a steroid is dependant on the estrification, the longer the ester chain the longer the bloodenzymes need to free the molecule (evasion time), but the invasion time (the time the steroid need to free itself from the oily depot into the watery blood ) is strongly dependant on the carrier/solvents. And the total half-life is the combination invasiontime-evasiontime.

    The purpose of this thread is to provide some basic information on frontloading, including an explanation of half-lives, differences across esters, and recommended frontloading dosages.

    HALF-LIFE BASICS

    Each compound includes an ester that, along with other factors, controls the release of the hormone into the system. The rate of release differs by ester and is defined in terms of half-life. The average half-lives of esters are:

    ESTER HALF LIFE (days)

    Formate 1.5
    Acetate 3
    Propionate 4.5
    Butyrate 6
    Valerate 7.5
    Hexanoate 9
    Caproate 9
    Isocaproate 9
    Heptanoate 10.5
    Enanthate 10.5
    Octanoate 12
    Cypionate 12
    Nonanoate 13.5
    Decanoate 15
    Undecanoate 16.5

    The half-life is the length of time (in days) to release half of the hormone into the system. For example, if 500 mgs of Testosterone Cypionate is administered, in 12 days, on average, 250 mgs of testosterone has been released into the system and 250 mgs of testosterone remains attached to the ester. In another 12 days, an additional 125 mgs (half of the remaining 250 mgs) has been released into the system for a total of 375 mgs released and 125 mgs still attached to the ester. The key detail is that different esters release the hormone into the system at different rates. Therefore, different esters require different frontload dosages.

    FRONTLOADING

    The purpose of frontloading is to quickly reach the target dosage to more quickly realize the benefits of the AAS. This thread provides instructions to reach 75% of the weekly dosage within the first week

    Most people use, as a rule of thumb, twice the weekly dosage (double dosing) in the first week. That works well for esters with a half-life of 10.5 days or less. However, this does not work well for longer esters. Let’s look at EQ as an example. If the intended weekly dosage is 600 mgs, then the frontload dosage, based on double dosing, is 1200 mgs. Although 50% of the intended dosage is reached in the first week, 75% of the intended dosage is not reached until week 4. Without any frontloading, 75% of the intended dosage is reached in week 5. So, while ‘double dosing’ works, the effects diminish with increasing half-life.

    EQ Double Dose Values at 600 mgs (1200 mgs in Week 1)

    No Frontload
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 153… 25%
    Week 2 267… 44%
    Week 3 352… 59%
    Week 4 415… 69%
    Week 5 462… 77%
    Week 6 497… 83%

    Double Dosing
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 306… 51%
    Week 2 381… 63%
    Week 3 437… 73%
    Week 4 478… 80%
    Week 5 509… 85%
    Week 6 532… 89%



    The following table includes frontloading dosage to reach 75% of the intended dosage by the end of the first week. The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

    ESTER FRONTLOAD DOSAGE(mgs)

    Formate 100
    Acetate 100
    Propionate 115
    Butyrate 130
    Valerate 160
    Hexanoate 180
    Caproate 180
    Isocaproate 180
    Heptanoate 200
    Enanthate 200
    Octanoate 225
    Cypionate 225
    Nonanoate 250
    Decanoate 270
    Undecanoate 295


    The calculation used is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL), where:

    MgDL = Mgs of depot left
    MgD = Mgs in depot (total)
    D = Days
    H = Half-life

    Injections for Formate and Acetate are daily. Injections for Propianate are every other day. Injections for Butyrate are every 3 days. All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.
    FCBARCELONA

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    Fuck it do a 16 weeks short ester cycle.

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    Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grozny View Post
    These assays all show that the half-lifes and clearence-time as we know them, don't actually exist. And that all suggestions made like b.e. in this thread are highly dependant on the carrier that is used to deliver the steroid. The half-life of a steroid is dependant on the estrification, the longer the ester chain the longer the bloodenzymes need to free the molecule (evasion time), but the invasion time (the time the steroid need to free itself from the oily depot into the watery blood ) is strongly dependant on the carrier/solvents. And the total half-life is the combination invasiontime-evasiontime.

    The purpose of this thread is to provide some basic information on frontloading, including an explanation of half-lives, differences across esters, and recommended frontloading dosages.

    HALF-LIFE BASICS

    Each compound includes an ester that, along with other factors, controls the release of the hormone into the system. The rate of release differs by ester and is defined in terms of half-life. The average half-lives of esters are:

    ESTER HALF LIFE (days)

    Formate 1.5
    Acetate 3
    Propionate 4.5
    Butyrate 6
    Valerate 7.5
    Hexanoate 9
    Caproate 9
    Isocaproate 9
    Heptanoate 10.5
    Enanthate 10.5
    Octanoate 12
    Cypionate 12
    Nonanoate 13.5
    Decanoate 15
    Undecanoate 16.5

    The half-life is the length of time (in days) to release half of the hormone into the system. For example, if 500 mgs of Testosterone Cypionate is administered, in 12 days, on average, 250 mgs of testosterone has been released into the system and 250 mgs of testosterone remains attached to the ester. In another 12 days, an additional 125 mgs (half of the remaining 250 mgs) has been released into the system for a total of 375 mgs released and 125 mgs still attached to the ester. The key detail is that different esters release the hormone into the system at different rates. Therefore, different esters require different frontload dosages.

    FRONTLOADING

    The purpose of frontloading is to quickly reach the target dosage to more quickly realize the benefits of the AAS. This thread provides instructions to reach 75% of the weekly dosage within the first week

    Most people use, as a rule of thumb, twice the weekly dosage (double dosing) in the first week. That works well for esters with a half-life of 10.5 days or less. However, this does not work well for longer esters. Let’s look at EQ as an example. If the intended weekly dosage is 600 mgs, then the frontload dosage, based on double dosing, is 1200 mgs. Although 50% of the intended dosage is reached in the first week, 75% of the intended dosage is not reached until week 4. Without any frontloading, 75% of the intended dosage is reached in week 5. So, while ‘double dosing’ works, the effects diminish with increasing half-life.

    EQ Double Dose Values at 600 mgs (1200 mgs in Week 1)

    No Frontload
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 153… 25%
    Week 2 267… 44%
    Week 3 352… 59%
    Week 4 415… 69%
    Week 5 462… 77%
    Week 6 497… 83%

    Double Dosing
    Released… % of Target
    Week 1 306… 51%
    Week 2 381… 63%
    Week 3 437… 73%
    Week 4 478… 80%
    Week 5 509… 85%
    Week 6 532… 89%



    The following table includes frontloading dosage to reach 75% of the intended dosage by the end of the first week. The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

    ESTER FRONTLOAD DOSAGE(mgs)

    Formate 100
    Acetate 100
    Propionate 115
    Butyrate 130
    Valerate 160
    Hexanoate 180
    Caproate 180
    Isocaproate 180
    Heptanoate 200
    Enanthate 200
    Octanoate 225
    Cypionate 225
    Nonanoate 250
    Decanoate 270
    Undecanoate 295


    The calculation used is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL), where:

    MgDL = Mgs of depot left
    MgD = Mgs in depot (total)
    D = Days
    H = Half-life

    Injections for Formate and Acetate are daily. Injections for Propianate are every other day. Injections for Butyrate are every 3 days. All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.
    This should be a sticky. This is awesome info that I personally have never heard before.

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    Ok, so I took all of this information and put it in a cheatsheet for myself, but decided to upload it too so that you bro's could use it if you wanted to too. How it works, edit the info in the green squares with your info. For example if you're going for 600mg a week of Cyp you'd put 600 in cell G2 and 12 in cell H2. If you decide to frontload in the first week you can enter the amount you're front loading in week 0 in H5 and you'll see how the frontloading will affect your cycle.

    I uploaded a picture for those that are curious. This is an Excel 2007 document.

    EDIT: I just did Grozny's example for Cyp which works out pretty much perfectly. Fuck me I wish I had this info sooner.

    EDIT2: I used this formula to calculate the halflives in the spreadsheet and it seemed to line up with Grozny's numbers:

    Ending Amount = Beginning Amount/(2^(Elapsed Time/Half-Life))

    http://www.filedropper.com/halflife-cheatsheet_1
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by tigershark1; 03-04-2011 at 01:31 PM.

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    Will look into it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grozny View Post
    The dosages are indexed at 100 mgs / week. To reach your intended dosage, simply multiply the frontload dosage by your weekly dosage divided by 100. For example, if you wanted to run Testosterone Cypionate at 800 mgs / wk, then multiply the frontload dosage of 225 mgs by 8 (800 / 100) for 1800 mgs in week 1.

    . . . All other esters are administered as one injection at the beginning of the week 1. It should be noted that injection frequency does not significantly influence frontloading dosages.
    Wow, that is a lot to inject in one injection at the beginning of week one. 1800 mg of a 200 mg/ml Cyp would be 9 ml, basically the entire vial! How do you inject that in one injection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
    Wow, that is a lot to inject in one injection at the beginning of week one. 1800 mg of a 200 mg/ml Cyp would be 9 ml, basically the entire vial! How do you inject that in one injection?
    I was thinking the same thing, but the math doesn't lie. I assume you'd split that up 4 ways and go to town on glutes and quads.

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    Humm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chino0823 View Post
    Humm
    You lost me.

    Anyway, so people frontloading are basically shooting an entire vial of cyp on day one? Anybody actually doing this?

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    Even a person doing 500 mg weekly would need to shoot more than half a vial to do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigershark1 View Post
    I was thinking the same thing, but the math doesn't lie. I assume you'd split that up 4 ways and go to town on glutes and quads.
    And hope it don't swell or this poor guy wont be doing much for a week!

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    short esters go in faster and do not accumulate as do long esters. I like to mix a medium-long ester testosterone with medium or short ester anabolics. That's what seems to work best for me.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
    Anyway, so people frontloading are basically shooting an entire vial of cyp on day one? Anybody actually doing this?
    Anybody?

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    So this practice must be very uncommon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
    Wow, that is a lot to inject in one injection at the beginning of week one. 1800 mg of a 200 mg/ml Cyp would be 9 ml, basically the entire vial! How do you inject that in one injection?
    If I was running 500mg per week, I would front load 1000mg in the first week:

    Day 1: 500mg
    Day 3: 250mg
    Day 4: 250mg

    You dont need to pin it all in one day. I guess you could load 500mg of day 3 and 4 if you choose.
    TheCaptn' is not a registered proctologist. His post are for his amusement only. Please seek proper medical advice if symptoms persist.


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    I would rather run a longer cycle than front load
    " A cookie without sugar is just a cracker" ~ ancient voodoo proverb
    "A man with infinite patience is never left waiting."~ROID's past incarnation

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROID View Post
    I would rather run a longer cycle than front load
    Do both you jew
    TheCaptn' is not a registered proctologist. His post are for his amusement only. Please seek proper medical advice if symptoms persist.


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    Quote Originally Posted by theCaptn' View Post
    Do both you jew
    I just fucking might do that.

    Hell I think I might up my damn doses EVERY SINGLE WEEK.
    " A cookie without sugar is just a cracker" ~ ancient voodoo proverb
    "A man with infinite patience is never left waiting."~ROID's past incarnation

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    Quote Originally Posted by malfeasance View Post
    You lost me.

    Anyway, so people frontloading are basically shooting an entire vial of cyp on day one? Anybody actually doing this?

    I've done it both ways and noticed zero difference. You are better off throwing in a fast acting ester like prop up front for a few weeks, or an oral like d-bol.

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    Was is Sustanon is it a short estser?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chino0823 View Post
    Was is Sustanon is it a short estser?
    4 esters of varying lengths, short, kinda short, long, and super long. The super long is the largest amount.

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    Which one long test c?

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    Decanoate. Active for 21 days. No C in sust.

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