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HCG and PCT, PLEASE HELP!!!!

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    HCG and PCT, PLEASE HELP!!!!

    I'm on a 15 week cycle of Tren A 300 mgs/wk, EQ 600 mgs/wk, Test E 500 mgs/wk. I plannecd on running hcg for the last two weeks of my cycle and then starting clomid and nolva 5 days later. Now I'm reading on some forums that HCG should be run with clomid and nolva for PCT? I thought that would defeat the purpose of PCT since HCG is suppressive? Also, I was going to run HCG at 500 IU's a week. Everyones telling me this is way too low and it's not going to get my testicles back into shape in two weeks. Somebody please help me with how I should go about this since I need to start HCG in about a weeks time. I thought I had this all dialed in but I guess not. Somebody please help, I'm starting to panic!

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    ive heard the same as you. 500 iu is too low. and yes run it with clomid or nolva.

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    So, I should run it during PCT and not two weeks before PCT? Do you have an recommendations on how high I should run HCG? I appreciate the help!

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    i'd pm heavyiron, he knows everything and seems cool enough to reply, even if only out of sympathy

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    Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer HCG during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that HCG is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu HCG taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu HCG weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. HCG will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile.

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    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

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    That is info i copied and pasted from heavyirons post on "first cycle and PCT". hope it helps...

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    If your balls have shrunken too much pct will become harder thats why you start using HCG in the 4-5 week of cycling. now hcg you should shoot every third day about 500 iu (after 4-5 weeks in the cycle), most pregnyl are 1500 or 5000 iu thats why you allways have something left and you can store that in your fridge, with the 5000 iu you can add extra bacteriostatic or sterilized water.

    I mis the anti-E. Some use proviron others Nolva and satrt their pct with Nolva and Clomid or one of the two.
    Last edited by Grozny; 06-23-2011 at 10:39 AM.
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    HCG should be used on cycle


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    Who gave u that hcg protocol u used?
    It's for during cycle, alot of ppl start after week 2 and stop after week 10(of a 12 weeker) at 250 or 500IU 2x week

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    A buddy that claims he's a steroid pro. He's a brick shithouse but obviously doesn't have a clue. I can get HCG immediately and I still have 5 weeks left until PCT. I just want to know the best way to get my testicles in shape before PCT. I know that it's optimal to run it throught cycle but I dont have that option now.

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    I shot HeavyIron a PM and he told me 500 IU twice a week for the last three weeks of my cycle as a minimum. What do think would be the maximum dose to MAKE SURE my nuts are in shape for PCT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msumuscle View Post
    I shot HeavyIron a PM and he told me 500 IU twice a week for the last three weeks of my cycle as a minimum. What do think would be the maximum dose to MAKE SURE my nuts are in shape for PCT?
    It's a bit late to be sure now, but follow Heavy's advice, and depending on what you are taking, you can up the dose between your last shot and the time you take your PCT. Do not take HCG during PCT, as it is counter-productive to regaining natural Testosterone production.

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    Thanks MDR! One more question for ya! What is HCGs halflife? How long before I start PCT can I take my last shot of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msumuscle View Post
    Thanks MDR! One more question for ya! What is HCGs halflife? How long before I start PCT can I take my last shot of it?
    When I'm using a long-acting ester during cycle, I usually up the dose to 3 times a week while it is clearing for a couple weeks, and before PCT. I think it clears pretty quickly. Usually give it a couple of days between the last HCG dose and the beginning of PCT. Seems to work fine. I also like to take Aromasin through PCT alongside the Clomid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDR View Post
    When I'm using a long-acting ester during cycle, I usually up the dose to 3 times a week while it is clearing for a couple weeks, and before PCT. I think it clears pretty quickly. Usually give it a couple of days between the last HCG dose and the beginning of PCT. Seems to work fine. I also like to take Aromasin through PCT alongside the Clomid.

    Yeah, I'm taking Research Stops Arimidex at .25 mg ED during cycle and I was thinking about upping it to .5 mg ED during PCT

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    Old school protocol was start shooting 2500 iu eod after your last test shot for a week to jumpstart the nuts. 2500 iu's not 250.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmoe65 View Post
    Old school protocol was start shooting 2500 iu eod after your last test shot for a week to jumpstart the nuts. 2500 iu's not 250.

    What if my test ester is prop? How would it work then since I start PCT three days after my last shot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msumuscle View Post
    What if my test ester is prop? How would it work then since I start PCT three days after my last shot?
    Start it a day after your last test shot. You would start your pct after you did the week of hcg. Like I said this was old school, take it for what its worth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msumuscle View Post
    A buddy that claims he's a steroid pro. He's a brick shithouse but obviously doesn't have a clue. I can get HCG immediately and I still have 5 weeks left until PCT. I just want to know the best way to get my testicles in shape before PCT. I know that it's optimal to run it throught cycle but I dont have that option now.
    There are a few ways to utilize HCG. One being during PCT. It is used briefly to restore testicle size and responsiveness to LH. Clomid and Nolva take time to get those little raisins back to par. HCG is used PCT to keep gains in that time period before your nutz are g2g.

    You only need a little HCG to light the fire. You don't want to over sensitize your testicles to LH. Then you have problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winny_ng 24/7 View Post
    There are a few ways to utilize HCG. One being during PCT. It is used briefly to restore testicle size and responsiveness to LH. Clomid and Nolva take time to get those little raisins back to par. HCG is used PCT to keep gains in that time period before your nutz are g2g.

    You only need a little HCG to light the fire. You don't want to over sensitize your testicles to LH. Then you have problems.
    Again, no HCG during PCT. You are trying to re-establish natural Testosterone production during PCT, and HCG does not assist in this process, it is in fact counter-productive.

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    Somebody may have already answered this but I can't seem to put it all together. HeavyIrons first cycle and PCT has to do with esters like cyp or enanthate. What if I'm using prop for my last few weeks? I understand doing HCG day 1-16 because you're not shooting test anymore but if you're using a short ester I'll be shooting up to three days before PCT? What would the HCG protocol be then?

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    I would just use it through the last shot of prop and then move on to PCT when the ester clears. Th main thing that HCG does for me is help me recover quicker during PCT when I take HCG during the cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDR View Post
    Again, no HCG during PCT. You are trying to re-establish natural Testosterone production during PCT, and HCG does not assist in this process, it is in fact counter-productive.
    This is the best PCT Program I found to date. Don't let others tell you something they read in a magazine. Just boosting Test levels with Clomid and blocking estrogen is NOT a PCT program. Too much or too little LH will fuck up your Hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular-axis (HPTA). HCG is timed corectly when your exogenous steroids are dropped below the threshold of adrogen stimulation.

    But Clomid and Nolva are both accepted themselves. I was just stating that the best Pct protocol involves the use of Hcg.

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    First of all, Nolva should not be used during PCT either for many reasons, and is also counter-productive. It is no longer used for much other than gyno issues during cycle, and I personally think there are better solutions. You are very confused about what constitutes an effective PCT regimen. HCG should only be used DURING the cycle. The suggestions you are providing are hopelessly out of date. All you need for PCT is Clomid and Aromasin, and you will effectively restart natural Testosterone production.

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    Everything Im writing here is based on my personal opinion from info Ive read and from personal trial and error.
    Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
    I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
    But in 2005 I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
    There are 3 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.

    1) 100ius ED starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 3days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.

    2) 250-300ius EOD or 2xwk and (same as above)

    3) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)

    Ive done all and really can't say one is better, with #2-3 you won't go through as many needles but all have worked well for me.

    PCT ( post cycle therapy )

    Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
    HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 48-72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.

    Most my PCTs have looked like this. Starting on day4 after last HCG shot. Start your clomid and nolva on the same day but always run your nolva at least a 1-2 wks longer
    3-4wks of clomid @ 50mg ed (in my early days Ive used higher amounts but feel its not needed)
    5-6wks of nolva @ 40mg ed 2wks and 20mg ed for remainder
    IMO a PCT should last at least 4-6wks+
    Also there seems to be great alternative to clomid/nolva these days, some are available here on OLM.

    Here's another PCT that a member here uses with good success.

    Now there's a couple different protocols in running toremifene. I like to run mine a little longer than some as I believe it is beneficial, also because of toremifene's safety profile. Also it has been determined that 120mg torem is roughly equivelent to 40mg nolvadex. Here's how I'm running mine.

    week 1: 120mg
    week 2: 120mg
    week 3: 90mg
    week 4: 90mg
    week 5: 60mg
    week 6: 60mg
    week 7: 60mg

    Hope this helps.

    Nixon[/quote]


    Other info you will need.
    Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used. I never read any reason to store HCG p0wder in fridge. A cool dark place is fine.
    With smaller amps/vials of under 5000ius ie 1500iu amps the water that comes with it is fine(up to 30days)
    Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29/30g 1cc.


    MIXING
    Use the bacwater, draw out 1cc BW(use a 1cc slinpin #10-100) and slowly add to p0wder and gently swirl till mixed. Then draw out mixture(if in an amp. If already in a vial just refrigerate) with 1.5" needle and inject into vial or leave in syringe and refrigerate. If you add 1cc to 5000ius then every 10mark on your 1cc slinpin will be 500ius of HCG (use E5D) if you want to use 250ius EOD then mix 2cc's BW into p0wder and then every 10mark will have 250ius..........11
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    Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
    Can you get by without HCG, sure.
    Can you get by without PCT, sure
    Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
    But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on AAS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11

    This is where I originally got my HCG info from. He was member of a board I used to frequent and a TRT doctor

    My PCT Protocol
    Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

    Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

    Here it is:

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

    (all credit goes to Eleven11 from the Outlaw Muscle Forums. I, MrSaturatedFat, did not write any of this)

    OutlawMuscle Forum
    Last edited by MrSaturatedFat; 06-25-2011 at 11:21 AM.

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    Nice post Mrsat, always good to hear from people with lots of exp

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    The sections on HCG and PCT are directly related to the question at hand. Hope this helps clear up sone of the confusion. This is a sticky generously provided by Heavyiron which explains the process extremely well, IMHO.-MDR



    Ancillaries during the cycle



    Aromatase Inhibitor


    I briefly wrote about using Tamoxifen above for emergency gynecomastia treatment however I am convinced that there is a better strategy for controlling estrogen during a steroid cycle. Rather than waiting for the side effects of estrogen to present an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex or Aromasin should be used on cycle to control Estrogen and keep free testosterone levels high. 0.5mg-1mg Arimidex daily OR 10-25mg Aromasin daily. Start with the lower dose and then see how that controls water retention, blood pressure and libido and make adjustments as needed. A blood test would be the most ideal way to determine the dosage of the AI. Free T needs to be in the high range and estradiol between 10-25 pg/ml.


    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin


    Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer HCG during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that HCG is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu HCG taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu HCG weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. HCG will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile.


    Post Cycle therapy


    I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

    I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily

    The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

    Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

    Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

    Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

    The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

    References

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

    Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use.

    Written by heavyiron
    Attached Imagesestarweightum5.jpg (13.2 KB, 955 views)
    Last edited by MDR; 06-25-2011 at 03:20 PM.

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