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Proviron Off Cycle?

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    Proviron Off Cycle?






    My rat is already showing signs of sex drive dropping after 2 week from last pin, would you recommend proviron in PCT or even off cycle? How long would you suggest?

    Thinking my rat may run it next cycle with test c, deca, dbol, think this would be a stupid idea even on a 20 week cycle?


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    What is your PCT?

    Could you also explain your logic behind using proviron to increase your sex drive with almost no testosterone in your system?

    Just curious, as I want to keep learning.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by underscore View Post
    What is your PCT?

    Could you also explain your logic behind using proviron to increase your sex drive with almost no testosterone in your system?

    Just curious, as I want to keep learning.

    Thanks
    As a pure androgen, Proviron will spike your libido regardless of whether you're running test or not. Of course, Proviron has virtually zero anabolic value but it is very androgenic.

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    Proviron will work great but remember if you are running it you are still on cycle. You wont fully recover bro. It does free up test in the system and has a mild anti estrogen effect but you should eventually come off completely. I think underscore might want to correct me.
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    D-Lats: Everyone wants to correct you!! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Latsky View Post
    Proviron will work great but remember if you are running it you are still on cycle. You wont fully recover bro. It does free up test in the system and has a mild anti estrogen effect but you should eventually come off completely. I think underscore might want to correct me.
    Proviron does not supress you, at least not in the studies I've read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CT View Post
    Proviron does not supress you, at least not in the studies I've read.
    So if that's true, one could - in theory - use Proviron off/on for a viagra-like effect if they were experiencing libido problems like the OP alludes to, right? THe only thing I know about Mesterelone is that it's a pure androgen with nearly no anabolic value whatsoever. It also "seems" to have an anti-estrogen effect that helps burn BF. If I'm not mistaken, it's chemical structure is very similar to either Dbol or Stanozolol. However, it is not 17 a/a hepatoxic.

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    I honestly thought i read it does suppress the testes but i could be mixed up. Bigbird i madr that comment because i was accused of being a parrot by undrrscore lol apoerently i just repeat whatever the trend of the thread is lol!! So i just wanted yo make sure my opinion was suitable.
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    It's been debated both ways. One way it does shut you down at higher doses and another it doesn't. Personally, I've only read a few different articles and had several discussions on another board about it. I walked away feeling comfortable that it is not supressive at 50mg ED and below.

    The facts and arguments seemed to make logical sense to me, but there is really only one way to find out.

    However, seeing that it is a synthetic hormone you would think that it would supress you.

    I guess to answer the question, you could use it year round if you really wanted to. I know a lot of guys like it because it has a drying effect on them.

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    Alright, I'm going to try in PCT or if I don't get it then, afterwards. I've read people running 50mg ED for 12-18 months with no effects afters blood work, seems like a pretty good deal to keep the sex drive alive after PCT, with strength gains possibly going up.

    I'm thinking of trying for about 6 weeks and going from there, CT do you recommend against this?


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    Quote Originally Posted by GymRat4Life View Post
    Alright, I'm going to try in PCT or if I don't get it then, afterwards. I've read people running 50mg ED for 12-18 months with no effects afters blood work, seems like a pretty good deal to keep the sex drive alive after PCT, with strength gains possibly going up.

    I'm thinking of trying for about 6 weeks and going from there, CT do you recommend against this?

    You won't gain any real strength from it, it basically frees up bound testosterone, that's it.

    I think your plan would be fine.

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    Again - do not expect Proviron to assist with strength nor size. It's anabolic rating is very very low. It is highly androgenic but this does not equate to anabolic. Therefore, the only effect you will notice from working out is perhaps a leaner dryer appearance due to androgen effect. It is safe and accurate to expect virtually zero anabolic aka strength/tissue building effects from Proviron.

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    Yeah not expecting much besides hopefully a sex drive boost. I miss that from test.


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    Proviron is very very lightly suppressive, yet it is still. Really depends on you and how hard/easily you shut down. If you don't normally have a problem, proviron off cycle would be fine.


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    What is the lowest effective dose for proviron? I ordered some for my next cycle but I don't think I got enough proviron is a little pricy.

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    25mg has always worked for me. However, I've recently upped it to 50mg (25mg taken 2x daily) - that is, until I ran out nearly 4 weeks ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwisT View Post
    Proviron is very very lightly suppressive, yet it is still. Really depends on you and how hard/easily you shut down. If you don't normally have a problem, proviron off cycle would be fine.

    It's used to treat hypogonadism, so if it were supressive wouldn't that defeat the original purpose?

    The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

    Varma TR, Patel RH.
    Source

    Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

    Abstract

    Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.


    This study used 100-150mg ED. I suggested using 50mg ED. I think it's safe to say at 50mg ED it is not supressive.
    Last edited by XYZ; 06-28-2011 at 01:03 PM.

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    Interesting study. Thanks CT
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    No problem.

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    The study only shows it helps when you have between 5mil and 20mil swimmers, a very very narrow margin. Lower or higher that that shows depression or non-improvement. More then likely, any AAS user are not in the range of benefit.

    No proviron off-cycle. It will not benefit you.

    ________________________________

    Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml)......

    depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated
    . There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.


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    Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility.

    [No authors listed]
    Abstract

    A prospective randomized double-blind study was undertaken to assess the effect on male fertility of 6 months' treatment with the synthetic androgen mesterolone. The study was performed in seven centres and 248 infertile couples were recruited. All men and their partners were investigated according to the standardized WHO protocol--Investigation and Diagnosis of the Infertile Couple. Following this investigation, 157 couples were selected in whom the male diagnosis was primary idiopathic testicular failure or idiopathic low sperm motility; the female partner had no demonstrable cause for infertility or was under successful treatment for a minor endocrine problem. The remaining 91 couples admitted were either incompletely investigated or had some additional factor associated with infertility. Men received either 150 or 75 mg mesterolone daily or placebo. Response was assessed in terms of semen characteristics and the partner's pregnancy rate. The cumulative life table pregnancy rates among all couples 8 months after randomization were 9 +/- 3% (+/- standard error), 12 +/- 4% and 16 +/- 4% in the placebo, 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups, respectively. The ratios of the pregnancy rates compared to placebo were 1.3 (0.5-3.2) and 1.8 (0.7-4.4) for the 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups respectively. Among the subset of 157 couples satisfying the strict eligibility criteria, the pregnancy rates were 11 +/- 5%, 12 +/- 5% and 19 +/- 6% in the placebo, 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups, respectively. The corresponding ratios of pregnancy rates to the placebo group were 1.2 (0.4-3.4) and 1.8 (0.6-5.3) for the 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups respectively. There were no significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups.


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwisT View Post
    The study only shows it helps when you have between 5mil and 20mil swimmers, a very very narrow margin. Lower or higher that that shows depression or non-improvement. More then likely, any AAS user are not in the range of benefit.

    No proviron off-cycle. It will not benefit you.

    ________________________________

    Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml)......

    depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

    You're missing the point of the LH and FSH issue. That is what is being discussed here as well at testosterone levels.

    Guys on gear have gotten women pregnant all the time, so the number of swimmers is secondary to the issue of LH, FSH and testosterone for this particular thread.

    How many people actually go and get a semen analysis done during PCT anyhow? It also only takes one swimmer to work as well. I know guys who have been well below 5M and have children without having to use a fertility clinic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBird View Post
    S - in theory - use Proviron off/on for a viagra-like effect if they were experiencing libido problems like the OP alludes to, right?
    I'm confused. Why not just use viagra/cialis if it's only the rat issue? This is what this is used for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwisT View Post
    Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility.

    [No authors listed]
    Abstract

    A prospective randomized double-blind study was undertaken to assess the effect on male fertility of 6 months' treatment with the synthetic androgen mesterolone. The study was performed in seven centres and 248 infertile couples were recruited. All men and their partners were investigated according to the standardized WHO protocol--Investigation and Diagnosis of the Infertile Couple. Following this investigation, 157 couples were selected in whom the male diagnosis was primary idiopathic testicular failure or idiopathic low sperm motility; the female partner had no demonstrable cause for infertility or was under successful treatment for a minor endocrine problem. The remaining 91 couples admitted were either incompletely investigated or had some additional factor associated with infertility. Men received either 150 or 75 mg mesterolone daily or placebo. Response was assessed in terms of semen characteristics and the partner's pregnancy rate. The cumulative life table pregnancy rates among all couples 8 months after randomization were 9 +/- 3% (+/- standard error), 12 +/- 4% and 16 +/- 4% in the placebo, 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups, respectively. The ratios of the pregnancy rates compared to placebo were 1.3 (0.5-3.2) and 1.8 (0.7-4.4) for the 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups respectively. Among the subset of 157 couples satisfying the strict eligibility criteria, the pregnancy rates were 11 +/- 5%, 12 +/- 5% and 19 +/- 6% in the placebo, 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups, respectively. The corresponding ratios of pregnancy rates to the placebo group were 1.2 (0.4-3.4) and 1.8 (0.6-5.3) for the 75 and 150 mg mesterolone groups respectively. There were no significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups.

    Neither of the studies you posted here mentions the use of hcg, hmg or clomid ALL of which are a part of a standard protocol. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

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    Interesting stuff CT.

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    Damn, this thread is heating up. I love it when two knowledgeable get into a debate.

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    Trust me you can get a girl pregnant on cycle lol! I have my beautiful daughter to prive it!
    Steroidsforyou

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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Latsky View Post
    Trust me you can get a girl pregnant on cycle lol! I have my beautiful daughter to prive it!
    How many weeks were you on for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CT View Post
    Neither of the studies you posted here mentions the use of hcg, hmg or clomid ALL of which are a part of a standard protocol. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
    We are talking about proviron, not hcg, hmg, santa clause or hitler. Proviron.

    Quote Originally Posted by CT View Post
    You're missing the point of the LH and FSH issue. That is what is being discussed here as well at testosterone levels.

    Guys on gear have gotten women pregnant all the time, so the number of swimmers is secondary to the issue of LH, FSH and testosterone for this particular thread.

    How many people actually go and get a semen analysis done during PCT anyhow? It also only takes one swimmer to work as well. I know guys who have been well below 5M and have children without having to use a fertility clinic.
    You dont understand FSH..... FSH IS sperm count (kindof)

    FSH is a DIRECT agonist for sperm germ cell maturation, not LH. LH has very little if nothing to do with sperm count, maturity, germ cell development. (yet obviously botha re hand-in-hand in fertility) How can you say I didn't touch on the FSH issue when both studies are directly related to sperm count. Sperm count is a DIRECT result of FSH secretion. Lower spem count means your FSH is not being secreted from the anterior pituitary.

    You dont need to get a sperm count, FSH is covered in almost every hormone panel.

    The point is, its proven that Priviron suppresses/has little to no effect other then between the ranges of 5-20mil sperm, (most likly because the subjects pituitary reacted to secretagogue), on FSH. Meaning its no good for PCT.... thats the point.




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    I was on a long cycle of test and tren i would say it was atleast ten weeks in. I was running proviron and no ai. Just had nolva it was before i learned about the other drugs used with 19 nors. Never had any issues with estrogen or prolactin ever. I used the proviron as a hardner and run it post cycle for another 5 weeks.
    Steroidsforyou

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