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First cycle. Thoughts and help please.

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    First cycle. Thoughts and help please.






    21 yrs old. Been training off and on for about 5 years but only seriously for the last 2.
    I'm 6'2 205lbs about 8% bf. (On a cut right now but will obviously have a bulk diet once I start cycle)
    Lift stats: 455 DL 385 squat 305 bench

    Diet: 450g carbs, 120g fats, 250 protein for about 3900 calories. I've seen people people with a shitload more cals so I'd appreciate thoughts on this. From what I've read however 250g should be adequate, I have no problem bumping that up though.

    Cycle: 1-10 Test E 500mg/wk ( Injecting 2 x Per Week at 250mg each ie; Mon/Thurs )
    1-15 Aromasin 12.5mg/EOD (I've seen this done different ways, however just from my own research this seems to be a solid protocol for blocking titties, would be glad to have input on this)
    12-15 Nolvadex 20/20/10/10 ED. Again this is just from what I've read around the internet, I'm thinking of adding another week (week 16) and doing 10 ED for that week as well. This is something I definitely need some input on.)


    Ancillaries: IronMagLabs Advanced Cycle Support (They also sell a 6-oxo product that I've seen mixed thoughts on that I'm considering adding, would appreciate input on whether or not to implement that or if i can just save my money if its not needed)
    Rogaine and Nizoral shampoo to curb any hair loss
    Regular vitamins ED, E,C,D etc.
    GAT Jetmass which I already take post w.o


    Training Program: Right now I do a double progression program that is 5 phases each phase being 2 weeks. Incidentally it fits the 10 week cycle I'm going to do. My lifting partner and I have been doing this and despite its incredibly high volume (1.5-2 hr training sessions) we have both been gaining strength and weight at a constant rate. (He is 5'9 260lbs at roughly 14-15% bf for reference)


    Any and all help would be much appreciated. If I forgot any info or you require any more I'll be sure to reply quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    21 yrs old. Been training off and on for about 5 years but only seriously for the last 2.
    I'm 6'2 205lbs about 8% bf. (On a cut right now but will obviously have a bulk diet once I start cycle)
    Lift stats: 455 DL 385 squat 305 bench

    Diet: 450g carbs, 120g fats, 250 protein for about 3900 calories. I've seen people people with a shitload more cals so I'd appreciate thoughts on this. From what I've read however 250g should be adequate, I have no problem bumping that up though.

    Cycle: 1-10 Test E 500mg/wk ( Injecting 2 x Per Week at 250mg each ie; Mon/Thurs )
    1-15 Aromasin 12.5mg/EOD (I've seen this done different ways, however just from my own research this seems to be a solid protocol for blocking titties, would be glad to have input on this)
    12-15 Nolvadex 20/20/10/10 ED. Again this is just from what I've read around the internet, I'm thinking of adding another week (week 16) and doing 10 ED for that week as well. This is something I definitely need some input on.)


    Ancillaries: IronMagLabs Advanced Cycle Support (They also sell a 6-oxo product that I've seen mixed thoughts on that I'm considering adding, would appreciate input on whether or not to implement that or if i can just save my money if its not needed)
    Rogaine and Nizoral shampoo to curb any hair loss
    Regular vitamins ED, E,C,D etc.
    GAT Jetmass which I already take post w.o


    Training Program: Right now I do a double progression program that is 5 phases each phase being 2 weeks. Incidentally it fits the 10 week cycle I'm going to do. My lifting partner and I have been doing this and despite its incredibly high volume (1.5-2 hr training sessions) we have both been gaining strength and weight at a constant rate. (He is 5'9 260lbs at roughly 14-15% bf for reference)


    Any and all help would be much appreciated. If I forgot any info or you require any more I'll be sure to reply quickly.
    Stopped reading after the first sentence. NO.

    Though you are going to do it anyways so I guess it doesn't matter and we should help you right?
    Please do not PM me with questions, I will not PM you back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suprfast View Post
    Stopped reading after the first sentence. NO.

    Though you are going to do it anyways so I guess it doesn't matter and we should help you right?
    If I'm going to do it anyways why not give me proper guidance? I'm not doing 100 things its a 10 week cycle of Test e. People like Cody Lewis have done much more much earlier and seem to be fine.

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    10 weeks of Test E will not screw him 4 life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kobefan234 View Post
    10 weeks of Test E will not screw him 4 life?
    are you asking this, or stating this
    *Disclaimer* I do not condone any illegal activity, All aas post and information are for conversation ONLY!


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    I think what suprfast is trying to say is... you are way to young too start steroids. And you've only been training for 2 years. You have at least another 4 to 5 years of serious training, and making great consistent gains without steroids.

    And besides... your "6'2 205lbs about 8%" Not like it matters... your too young bro, start hanging around the Training and Diet/Nutrition forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    If I'm going to do it anyways why not give me proper guidance? I'm not doing 100 things its a 10 week cycle of Test e
    Because they 47k other posts asking the same question have already been answered thoroughly. Id suggest searching and you will learn quite a bit.

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...le-advice.html

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...anna-read.html

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...anna-read.html

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...oid-rules.html

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...stats-inc.html

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...young-age.html

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...ce-please.html

    Any questions just ask. Do a little reading and if you feel that at 21 you HAVE to start we would rather you do it correctly then half assed. If you short change yourself because you dont have the income to run a proper cycle that is your problem. Too often we read that I ran out of AI, will I be okay. I dont have enough for PCT.
    Please do not PM me with questions, I will not PM you back.

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    and as my disclaimer, not to be a dick, if you fail to follow what many of the experts here lay out as guidelines most of us will not care. If you follow and need help odds are we will do so willingly.

    Lastly, the thread of threads. Failure to read this one means you are not ready.
    Lots of pages but Heavy really is knowledgeable.

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...cycle-pct.html
    Please do not PM me with questions, I will not PM you back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suprfast View Post
    and as my disclaimer, not to be a dick, if you fail to follow what many of the experts here lay out as guidelines most of us will not care. If you follow and need help odds are we will do so willingly.

    Lastly, the thread of threads. Failure to read this one means you are not ready.
    Lots of pages but Heavy really is knowledgeable.

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...cycle-pct.html

    First of all, my diet is on point. I weigh my shit out on a scale and log everything on myfitnesspal. Secondly, did you even read my post? Obviously I am not sparing expense on my post cycle. From all the PCT and First Cycle threads I have read, what I posted is an optimal cycle and post cycle protocol. The reason for my post is that I have not seen this exact cycle posted anywhere, and wanted to get a veterans experience before I did anything. Hence the reason I am here on this forum and not in my basement jabbing myself with a needle saying fuck it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    First of all, my diet is on point. I weigh my shit out on a scale and log everything on myfitnesspal. Secondly, did you even read my post? Obviously I am not sparing expense on my post cycle. From all the PCT and First Cycle threads I have read, what I posted is an optimal cycle and post cycle protocol. The reason for my post is that I have not seen this exact cycle posted anywhere, and wanted to get a veterans experience before I did anything. Hence the reason I am here on this forum and not in my basement jabbing myself with a needle saying fuck it
    Since you twisted my arm.

    Cycle looks good for a beginner. I appreciate that you didnt try to throw everything under the sun into your first cycle. Clomid is better suited for PCT then nolva and have enough aromasin on hand just in case. 12.5mg eod is probably stretching it. 12.5mg ed or 25mg eod is usually a better fit but you need to adjust accordingly. The nolva is good to have on hand in case gyno flares up. Aside from HCG which many people swear by seems like you are looking pretty good.

    Now saying your diet is on point is arbitrary if you dont post up what your diet really looks like. You dont have to do that here, but if you think you are on point then cool. You can get some nice gains from your first cycle.
    Please do not PM me with questions, I will not PM you back.

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    A little young but I'm not going to judge. I did my first at 22. He seems like he has all of his shit lined out more than most other people no matter what their age. He seems to have done his research and has some standard questions. I will answer them for you bro.

    I think that your test schedule/dose looks perfect. 500 will be a good start and not too crazy for you. You could go out to 12 weeks if you wanted but i'd stop there.

    Aromasin needs to be taken every day because of the half life. Start at 12.5mg ED and adjust from there. Don't be afraid to go to 25mg or higher if needed.

    I think your time line is a little off. You need to wait 2 weeks after your last shot of test to start PCT for 500mg of test E/C. If you do a 10 week cycle, 1-10 will be "On". Take 11 and 12 off and start PCT on 13 and run for 4 weeks. Clomid is recommended over nolva in a regimen like this: 100/100/75/50. Take aromasin on PCT like this: 25/25/12.5/12.5

    I would look into taking an oral at the begining to kickstart the cycle. If not you might be waiting 3-5 weeks for the test to fully take hold. I would suggest Dbol around 30-40mg ED for 4 weeks.

    Also think about using some HCG on cycle. Recommended dose is 250-500iu 2x per week. Then you would want to continue this until a few days before you start PCT. It doesn't hurt to blast a little HCG while the ester clears (your two week off period) at a higher dose right before PCT. 1000iu will work here. If you decide to do this you need some slin pins, bac water and a couple sterile vials.

    Good luck bro.
    Like people about as much as they like me. Never found a way to say fuck you politely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJ View Post
    A little young but I'm not going to judge. I did my first at 22. He seems like he has all of his shit lined out more than most other people no matter what their age. He seems to have done his research and has some standard questions. I will answer them for you bro.

    I think that your test schedule/dose looks perfect. 500 will be a good start and not too crazy for you. You could go out to 12 weeks if you wanted but i'd stop there.

    Aromasin needs to be taken every day because of the half life. Start at 12.5mg ED and adjust from there. Don't be afraid to go to 25mg or higher if needed.

    I think your time line is a little off. You need to wait 2 weeks after your last shot of test to start PCT for 500mg of test E/C. If you do a 10 week cycle, 1-10 will be "On". Take 11 and 12 off and start PCT on 13 and run for 4 weeks. Clomid is recommended over nolva in a regimen like this: 100/100/75/50. Take aromasin on PCT like this: 25/25/12.5/12.5

    I would look into taking an oral at the begining to kickstart the cycle. If not you might be waiting 3-5 weeks for the test to fully take hold. I would suggest Dbol around 30-40mg ED for 4 weeks.

    Also think about using some HCG on cycle. Recommended dose is 250-500iu 2x per week. Then you would want to continue this until a few days before you start PCT. It doesn't hurt to blast a little HCG while the ester clears (your two week off period) at a higher dose right before PCT. 1000iu will work here. If you decide to do this you need some slin pins, bac water and a couple sterile vials.

    Good luck bro.
    The master has spoken. 95% of what I learned is from this man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by suprfast View Post
    Since you twisted my arm.

    Cycle looks good for a beginner. I appreciate that you didnt try to throw everything under the sun into your first cycle. Clomid is better suited for PCT then nolva and have enough aromasin on hand just in case. 12.5mg eod is probably stretching it. 12.5mg ed or 25mg eod is usually a better fit but you need to adjust accordingly. The nolva is good to have on hand in case gyno flares up. Aside from HCG which many people swear by seems like you are looking pretty good.

    Now saying your diet is on point is arbitrary if you dont post up what your diet really looks like. You dont have to do that here, but if you think you are on point then cool. You can get some nice gains from your first cycle.

    Thank you. I decided to put nolva instead of clomid because I've heard that clomid can be harsh (side effects wise) and is a strong SERM. Because of my choice to only use Test E, clomid might be overkill. Also nolva doesnt interact with Aromasin. Despite this, do you still suggest clomid?

    Obviously you wouldn't have said clomid if you didn't think I should use it, I just wanted to explain WHY I chose 1 over the other and if those might change your thoughts.

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    I like arimidex on cycle just because it's cheaper, but sloppy's protocol is about as solid as you're gonna find. If you do use a-dex on cycle you still must use aromasin for pct however.

    If you like the idea of an oral kickstart look into dbol or superdrol. Superdrol is very lean and won't bloat you at all, while putting on nice lbm pretty quickly. If you use dbol you may need some extra AI for this portion of the cycle (dbol aromatizes pretty heavily and can also convert to the potent methylestradiol). Clomid is superior for pct but nolva has been proven to be quite effective, if the side effects of clomid scare you then in my humble opinion nolva can definitely be substituted. Also since you aren't running any progestin related compounds 10-20mg nolva a day for a few days will stop any gyno in the off chance that you have that issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJ View Post
    A little young but I'm not going to judge. I did my first at 22. He seems like he has all of his shit lined out more than most other people no matter what their age. He seems to have done his research and has some standard questions. I will answer them for you bro.

    I think that your test schedule/dose looks perfect. 500 will be a good start and not too crazy for you. You could go out to 12 weeks if you wanted but i'd stop there.

    Aromasin needs to be taken every day because of the half life. Start at 12.5mg ED and adjust from there. Don't be afraid to go to 25mg or higher if needed.

    I think your time line is a little off. You need to wait 2 weeks after your last shot of test to start PCT for 500mg of test E/C. If you do a 10 week cycle, 1-10 will be "On". Take 11 and 12 off and start PCT on 13 and run for 4 weeks. Clomid is recommended over nolva in a regimen like this: 100/100/75/50. Take aromasin on PCT like this: 25/25/12.5/12.5

    I would look into taking an oral at the begining to kickstart the cycle. If not you might be waiting 3-5 weeks for the test to fully take hold. I would suggest Dbol around 30-40mg ED for 4 weeks.

    Also think about using some HCG on cycle. Recommended dose is 250-500iu 2x per week. Then you would want to continue this until a few days before you start PCT. It doesn't hurt to blast a little HCG while the ester clears (your two week off period) at a higher dose right before PCT. 1000iu will work here. If you decide to do this you need some slin pins, bac water and a couple sterile vials.

    Good luck bro.
    Thank you very much for the insight. I posted my last response before the page refreshed and I saw this one. Clomid it is then I suppose. Just so I'm 100% clear the dosages you gave for PCT is ED correct?

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    Yep the dosage is listed as ED. I forget the exact numbers but last study I read clomid was only a few percent more effective at raising LH/test production than nolva. It also doesn't negatively effect igf-1 levels like nolva, though again the effect is small and I'm not convinced it would even be noticed. Factoring in the emotional rollercoaster that pct can be anyway, I think adding to that bitchiness with clomid is not always the best idea. This is one thing that I think is very much personal choice still, but I have used nolva with success and would continue to do so if I had to choose (I cruise now so I don't lol, but you get the idea). Just my .02, but with aromasin and some hcg on cycle nolva should be plenty sufficient for pct and with a lower incidence of side effects (emotions/vision etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalash View Post
    I like arimidex on cycle just because it's cheaper, but sloppy's protocol is about as solid as you're gonna find. If you do use a-dex on cycle you still must use aromasin for pct however.

    If you like the idea of an oral kickstart look into dbol or superdrol. Superdrol is very lean and won't bloat you at all, while putting on nice lbm pretty quickly. If you use dbol you may need some extra AI for this portion of the cycle (dbol aromatizes pretty heavily and can also convert to the potent methylestradiol). Clomid is superior for pct but nolva has been proven to be quite effective, if the side effects of clomid scare you then in my humble opinion nolva can definitely be substituted. Also since you aren't running any progestin related compounds 10-20mg nolva a day for a few days will stop any gyno in the off chance that you have that issue.

    To be safe I'm thinking I'll go with clomid just because the guys smarter than me say to lol. However if I was going to use Nolva are my dosages correct?

    20/20/10/10


    Also, apparently I don't understand how the reputation system works ha oh well. Just know I really appreciate the huge amount of help/information you have given.
    Last edited by Tysdon; 02-20-2012 at 04:07 PM.

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    Yeah clomid is a safe bet, every forum seems to have their own opinion on which is better but clomid usually comes up the winner. Just saying the differences aren't huge and nolva does and has worked for many. For dosages I would go more like 40/20/20/10 just to be safe. Nolva is effective at pretty low doses but it's cheap and won't give you any real side effects if you go higher so I'd say it's better to play it a bit safe. The half life is super long so by using extra the first week you bring your blood levels up quickly. No problem though bro, every one here is more than willing to help as long as you show some initiative and research on your own. You might get some hate for your age but it could be worse and at least you seem to be taking this seriously, plus your lifting stats are good so you've obviously put in some work on your own before considering this

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    Sloppy perfectly covered everything for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    Thank you very much for the insight. I posted my last response before the page refreshed and I saw this one. Clomid it is then I suppose. Just so I'm 100% clear the dosages you gave for PCT is ED correct?
    No problem bro. Yes the PCT layout is an ED dose.

    Quote Originally Posted by suprfast View Post
    The master has spoken. 95% of what I learned is from this man.
    Thank you Supr. I am far from the "Master" many guys on here know much more than I, but I try to help when people will actually listen. This guy seems like he will listen to good advice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    Thank you. I decided to put nolva instead of clomid because I've heard that clomid can be harsh (side effects wise) and is a strong SERM. Because of my choice to only use Test E, clomid might be overkill. Also nolva doesnt interact with Aromasin. Despite this, do you still suggest clomid?

    Obviously you wouldn't have said clomid if you didn't think I should use it, I just wanted to explain WHY I chose 1 over the other and if those might change your thoughts.
    You can use either or. Nolva does have a negative effect on your IGF levels but clomid can make you emotional. It's up to you but around here we all recommend clomid. On my last PCT I used both with success because it was a long hard cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJ View Post
    No problem bro. Yes the PCT layout is an ED dose.



    Thank you Supr. I am far from the "Master" many guys on here know much more than I, but I try to help when people will actually listen. This guy seems like he will listen to good advice.




    You can use either or. Nolva does have a negative effect on your IGF levels but clomid can make you emotional. It's up to you but around here we all recommend clomid. On my last PCT I used both with success because it was a long hard cycle.
    Is it wrong to say clomid can shut down the libido? On my last cycle I swear I was braiding my wife's hair after I started clomid. Now that I am on cycle again I feel like I can't be contained.

    I do agree that I think he will listen. Didn't mean to come off harsh and my ignorance of not reading how well he laid it out in the first place took over. My apologies Tysdon.
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    Alright so from all of your input, my cycle looks like this.

    1-10 Test E 500mg/wk 2x/250mg
    1-4 SUPER-DMZ
    1-12 HCG 250iu x2/wk - Same day as Test E pin
    1-10 Aromasin 12.5 ED (up to 25mg) - I'm assuming based on nipple tenderness/puffiness etc?
    13-16 Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5
    13-16 Nolvadex 40/20/20/10

    I only put Super-DMZ because I can be sure of its authenticity. I have a source for Test E but not one that I'm 100% sure of quality for D-bol.

    Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suprfast View Post
    Is it wrong to say clomid can shut down the libido? On my last cycle I swear I was braiding my wife's hair after I started clomid. Now that I am on cycle again I feel like I can't be contained.

    I do agree that I think he will listen. Didn't mean to come off harsh and my ignorance of not reading how well he laid it out in the first place took over. My apologies Tysdon.
    I don't think clomid will hurt your libido. This is just based on the fact that clomid will raise your test levels. You must make sure all of it is out of your system before you take any blood tests.

    Seems to me that it's just normal PCT that you're describing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    Alright so from all of your input, my cycle looks like this.

    1-10 Test E 500mg/wk 2x/250mg
    1-4 SUPER-DMZ
    1-12 HCG 250iu x2/wk - Same day as Test E pin
    1-10 Aromasin 12.5 ED (up to 25mg) - I'm assuming based on nipple tenderness/puffiness etc?
    13-16 Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5
    13-16 Nolvadex 40/20/20/10

    I only put Super-DMZ because I can be sure of its authenticity. I have a source for Test E but not one that I'm 100% sure of quality for D-bol.

    Thanks again.
    Actually DMZ is a great oral to kickstart with. I should have mentioned that in my other post.

    As for your nolva dose, I'd do it 40/40/20/20

    Base your aromasin dose on a few things. If you notice you're holding a lot of water, up it. If your nipples feel weird, up the dose. As the bare minimum you should have some letro on hand incase of a gyno flare up. Also extra nolva to take on cycle if you have any problems is a great idea. Just order some extra and keep it around. When you actually need it you won't have to wait and you'll be thankful you had it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJ View Post

    Actually DMZ is a great oral to kickstart with. I should have mentioned that in my other post.

    As for your nolva dose, I'd do it 40/40/20/20

    Base your aromasin dose on a few things. If you notice you're holding a lot of water, up it. If your nipples feel weird, up the dose. As the bare minimum you should have some letro on hand incase of a gyno flare up. Also extra nolva to take on cycle if you have any problems is a great idea. Just order some extra and keep it around. When you actually need it you won't have to wait and you'll be thankful you had it.
    Alright awesome. So if I notice gyno flare up even with 25mg of aromasin on cycle how much Nolva should I take on cycle. I'm assuming you were talking about gyno by "problems"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    Alright awesome. So if I notice gyno flare up even with 25mg of aromasin on cycle how much Nolva should I take on cycle. I'm assuming you were talking about gyno by "problems"
    Aromasin should work just fine for the gyno. After a few days of 25mg ED, you should have no problems. If you really want overkill, you can throw in 15mg Nolva to tackle it.
    "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" -Jimi Hendrix
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    I agree with sloppy and wanna add this, I did my first cycle when i was 21 and now i am 29, got my test checked and i am at the very low end so started my own hrt.
    it is your body do whatever you want but make sure you know the risks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlekev View Post
    are you asking this, or stating this
    Statement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imosted View Post
    I agree with sloppy and wanna add this, I did my first cycle when i was 21 and now i am 29, got my test checked and i am at the very low end so started my own hrt.
    it is your body do whatever you want but make sure you know the risks.
    Did you do proper PCT? Did you really live through your whole 20s with low T?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSaturatedFat View Post
    I think what suprfast is trying to say is... you are way to young too start steroids. And you've only been training for 2 years. You have at least another 4 to 5 years of serious training, and making great consistent gains without steroids.

    And besides... your "6'2 205lbs about 8%" Not like it matters... your too young bro, start hanging around the Training and Diet/Nutrition forums.
    I agree you dont need any gear yet.If you start too young it can really fuck with your head dude.Just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tysdon View Post
    If I'm going to do it anyways why not give me proper guidance? I'm not doing 100 things its a 10 week cycle of Test e. People like Cody Lewis have done much more much earlier and seem to be fine.
    I think your too young but DEFF not 10 weeks. when you do extend it to 14 weeks, trust me, not much diference in shut down but atleast you would(could) have worthg while gians for putting your body in a horomonal roller coaster.

    i rec waiting a couple more years, but this is what I would rec when ready, or if you are going to regardless. (i rec wating a couple more yearsthough man)

    wk1-14 400-500mg teste ew(250mg 2X aweek or one shot 1XC a week is fine)
    wk14-19 PCT
    AI on hand

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