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    Tren and Collagen synthesis? is it possible.....where are you heavyiron!?!

    maybe heavy could chime in here....i have a distaste for deca, if tren has the same good qualities for my joints as deca im SOLD for life

    You see, trenbolone increases IGF-1 to a great degree, which ought to stimulate the growth of tendons, as we all know.



    Endocrinology. 1989 May;124(5):2110-7.


    Trenbolone alters the responsiveness of skeletal muscle satellite cells to fibroblast growth factor and insulin-like growth factor I.


    Thompson SH, Boxhorn LK, Kong WY, Allen RE.



    Department of Animal Sciences, University of Arizona, Tucson 85721.



    The potential role of satellite cells in mediating the effect of trenbolone [17 beta-hydroxyestra-4,9-11-trien-3-one (TBOH)] on skeletal muscle hypertrophy was examined. Young female Sprague-Dawley rats received TBOH injections daily for 2 weeks; growth, body composition, and the composition of selected muscles were assessed. Treated rats grew more rapidly and deposited less body lipid and more protein. The semimembranosus muscle from treated rats was larger and had approximately 60% more DNA per muscle than muscles from control rats. The addition of trenbolone directly to the medium of cultured satellite cells did not stimulate cell proliferation, nor did it augment the stimulatory response of these cells to fibroblast growth factor (FGF) or insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I). In contrast, satellite cells cultured from TBOH-treated rats exhibited greater proliferative responses to FGF and IGF-I than satellite cells from control rats. In addition, serum from TBOH-treated rats stimulated greater cell proliferation in satellite cell cultures than serum from control rats. These experiments suggest that one possible mechanism responsible for the ability of TBOH to stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy may be through enhanced proliferation and differentiation of satellite cells as a result of the increased sensitivity of these cells to IGF-I and FGF.



    PMID: 2707149 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    You will also note that trenbolone treated satellite cells showed an increased response to FGF (fibroblast growth factor). Again, as we know, (basic)FGF stimulates collagen synthesis:


    Sports Med. 2003;33(5):381-94.

    The roles of growth factors in tendon and ligament healing.



    Molloy T, Wang Y, Murrell G.


    Orthopaedic Research Institute, St George Hospital Campus, University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia.


    tendon healing is a complex and highly-regulated process that is initiated, sustained and eventually terminated by a large number and variety of molecules. Growth factors represent one of the most important of the molecular families involved in healing, and a considerable number of studies have been undertaken in an effort to elucidate their many functions. This review covers some of the recent investigations into the roles of five growth factors whose activities have been best characterised during tendon healing: insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), transforming growth factor beta (TGFbeta), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF), and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF). All five are markedly up-regulated following tendon injury and are active at multiple stages of the healing process. IGF-I has been shown to be highly expressed during the early inflammatory phase in a number of animal tendon healing models, and appears to aid in the proliferation and migration of fibroblasts and to subsequently increase collagen production. TGFbeta is also active during inflammation, and has a variety of effects including the regulation of cellular migration and proliferation, and fibronectin binding interactions. VEGF is produced at its highest levels only after the inflammatory phase, at which time it is a powerful stimulator of angiogenesis. PDGF is produced shortly after tendon damage and helps to stimulate the production of other growth factors, including IGF-I, and has roles in tissue remodelling.In vitro and in vivo studies have shown that bFGF is both a powerful stimulator of angiogenesis and a regulator of cellular migration and proliferation. This review also covers some of the most recent studies into the use of these molecules as therapeutic agents to increase the efficacy and efficiency of tendon and ligament healing. Studies into the effects of the exogenous application of TGFbeta, IGF-I, PDGF and bFGF into the wound site singly and in combination have shown promise, significantly decreasing a number of parameters used to define the functional deficit of a healing tendon. Application of IGF-I has been shown to increase in the Achilles Functional Index and the breaking energy of injured rat tendon. TGFbeta and PDGF have been shown separately to increase the breaking energy of healing tendon. Finally, application of bFGF has been shown to promote cellular proliferation and collagen synthesis in vivo.


    Therefore, Trenbolone, by stimulating (b)FGF as well as IGF-1 - certainly would stimulate collagen synthesis. I don't know of anyone who claims trenbolone healed any injuries...but the evidence is here to suggest it.
    .

    Whether this is the same type of collagen synthesis that winstrol causes im not sure (which would be a bad thing)
    Last edited by FTW34; 05-06-2012 at 07:03 PM.

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    I've read this as well, but also heard from some that it has a very negative effect on collagen synthesis or at least on crosslinking etc. that actually provide the tendon's strength. There's more to it than igf-1 though obviously, test increases igf as well but over a certain dose (around 250mg a week IIRC) it negatively affects collagen synth. Also as you're aware just checking for markers of increased collagen synth isn't enough, some things at least myostatin inhibitors cause tendons to become brittle and there is poor crosslinking making the tendon weaker even though it may appear fine on the surface. I'd definitely like to hear a conclusive statement here though, if it helps with tendons as well then there's practically no reason to run anything else lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTW34 View Post
    maybe heavy could chime in here....i have a distaste for deca, if tren has the same good qualities for my joints as deca im SOLD for life

    You see, trenbolone increases IGF-1 to a great degree, which ought to stimulate the growth of tendons, as we all know.



    Endocrinology. 1989 May;124(5):2110-7.


    Trenbolone alters the responsiveness of skeletal muscle satellite cells to fibroblast growth factor and insulin-like growth factor I.


    Thompson SH, Boxhorn LK, Kong WY, Allen RE.



    Department of Animal Sciences, University of Arizona, Tucson 85721.



    The potential role of satellite cells in mediating the effect of trenbolone [17 beta-hydroxyestra-4,9-11-trien-3-one (TBOH)] on skeletal muscle hypertrophy was examined. Young female Sprague-Dawley rats received TBOH injections daily for 2 weeks; growth, body composition, and the composition of selected muscles were assessed. Treated rats grew more rapidly and deposited less body lipid and more protein. The semimembranosus muscle from treated rats was larger and had approximately 60% more DNA per muscle than muscles from control rats. The addition of trenbolone directly to the medium of cultured satellite cells did not stimulate cell proliferation, nor did it augment the stimulatory response of these cells to fibroblast growth factor (FGF) or insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I). In contrast, satellite cells cultured from TBOH-treated rats exhibited greater proliferative responses to FGF and IGF-I than satellite cells from control rats. In addition, serum from TBOH-treated rats stimulated greater cell proliferation in satellite cell cultures than serum from control rats. These experiments suggest that one possible mechanism responsible for the ability of TBOH to stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy may be through enhanced proliferation and differentiation of satellite cells as a result of the increased sensitivity of these cells to IGF-I and FGF.



    PMID: 2707149 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    You will also note that trenbolone treated satellite cells showed an increased response to FGF (fibroblast growth factor). Again, as we know, (basic)FGF stimulates collagen synthesis:


    Sports Med. 2003;33(5):381-94.

    The roles of growth factors in tendon and ligament healing.



    Molloy T, Wang Y, Murrell G.


    Orthopaedic Research Institute, St George Hospital Campus, University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia.


    tendon healing is a complex and highly-regulated process that is initiated, sustained and eventually terminated by a large number and variety of molecules. Growth factors represent one of the most important of the molecular families involved in healing, and a considerable number of studies have been undertaken in an effort to elucidate their many functions. This review covers some of the recent investigations into the roles of five growth factors whose activities have been best characterised during tendon healing: insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), transforming growth factor beta (TGFbeta), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF), and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF). All five are markedly up-regulated following tendon injury and are active at multiple stages of the healing process. IGF-I has been shown to be highly expressed during the early inflammatory phase in a number of animal tendon healing models, and appears to aid in the proliferation and migration of fibroblasts and to subsequently increase collagen production. TGFbeta is also active during inflammation, and has a variety of effects including the regulation of cellular migration and proliferation, and fibronectin binding interactions. VEGF is produced at its highest levels only after the inflammatory phase, at which time it is a powerful stimulator of angiogenesis. PDGF is produced shortly after tendon damage and helps to stimulate the production of other growth factors, including IGF-I, and has roles in tissue remodelling.In vitro and in vivo studies have shown that bFGF is both a powerful stimulator of angiogenesis and a regulator of cellular migration and proliferation. This review also covers some of the most recent studies into the use of these molecules as therapeutic agents to increase the efficacy and efficiency of tendon and ligament healing. Studies into the effects of the exogenous application of TGFbeta, IGF-I, PDGF and bFGF into the wound site singly and in combination have shown promise, significantly decreasing a number of parameters used to define the functional deficit of a healing tendon. Application of IGF-I has been shown to increase in the Achilles Functional Index and the breaking energy of injured rat tendon. TGFbeta and PDGF have been shown separately to increase the breaking energy of healing tendon. Finally, application of bFGF has been shown to promote cellular proliferation and collagen synthesis in vivo.


    Therefore, Trenbolone, by stimulating (b)FGF as well as IGF-1 - certainly would stimulate collagen synthesis. I don't know of anyone who claims trenbolone healed any injuries...but the evidence is here to suggest it.
    .

    Whether this is the same type of collagen synthesis that winstrol causes im not sure (which would be a bad thing)
    bear with me if this doesn't come across very clearly... just had dilaudid in my IV(a little looped)... I would say it is a very reasonable assumption that tren will help with collagen repair, etc.... One thing to keep in mind though... tren is a 'suicide' destroyer of cortisol receptors(sounds good from a muscle gain standpoint.... but irritated joints, tendons, ligaments, etc.... generally bring with them, swelling(of which, cortisol will help limit the amt of swelling)... This is a very necessary role of cortisol in the body, and also speeds healing(although cortisol does not, in itself, heal tissues... it brings swelling down, decreases pain, etc

    ok, lost train of thought...lol

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    I'd take some dilaudid right about now lol... When you say suicide destroyer of cortisol receptors, how long does this effect last after stopping tren? Also isn't cortisol one of the main contributors to anxiety (or at least adrenaline released in response to cortisol?) so why does tren often cause anxiety for some?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalash View Post
    I'd take some dilaudid right about now lol... When you say suicide destroyer of cortisol receptors, how long does this effect last after stopping tren? Also isn't cortisol one of the main contributors to anxiety (or at least adrenaline released in response to cortisol?) so why does tren often cause anxiety for some?
    trust me, you don't want to go through what I went through half the day today before I finally went to ER...fucking back!!!
    I was trying to copy and paste from the book this tidbit of info is in(the cortisol receptor statement), but it won't let me...
    cortisol and/or adrenaline is released due to anxiety and stress....
    My personal thoughts on the tren 'anxiety' as well as some 'mental' effects of halo, a couple other 'high aggresion' steroids is this:
    I believe that there are a few aas(or their metabolites) that can cross the blood/brain barrier, and thus affect 'mental status', moods much more than others... This, more than likely, has never been studied to any great degree with tren, im sure, but probably not with halo either(even though it is fda approved for human use in the US)

    We do know, from research and clinical studies, that compounds such as testosterone do affect serotonin/ dopamine secretion(and probably to some degree, reuptake... via many different pathways), but I honestly think(and if anyone ever comes across a clinical study on the subject I would LOVE to have a copy) that a few aas, and/or metabolites do cross blood/brain barrier and have a direct effect, as well as indirect effects on the brain...

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    sorry digital... I went way off subject there... fuck it, I'm going to bed... I'll write response regarding cortisol receptors tomorrow(and maybe be able to cut and paste to thread)

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    It's ok bro I find everything about AAS incredibly interesting, especially the parts that are unrelated to muscle building. It's amazing the range of effects these primarily "male" hormones can have, from affecting brain chemistry all the way to gene expression. Sort of gives you a perspective on what exactly it means to be "male" in nature's eyes so to speak. I hope you feel better though bro and unfortunately I think it's pretty likely I will have to go through the same thing at some point. Whenever I can actually get them to give me some medical attention that is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalash View Post
    It's ok bro I find everything about AAS incredibly interesting, especially the parts that are unrelated to muscle building. It's amazing the range of effects these primarily "male" hormones can have, from affecting brain chemistry all the way to gene expression. Sort of gives you a perspective on what exactly it means to be "male" in nature's eyes so to speak. I hope you feel better though bro and unfortunately I think it's pretty likely I will have to go through the same thing at some point. Whenever I can actually get them to give me some medical attention that is...
    Good luck bro! Hope it turns out well for you.

    Sorry OP... back to you.... I'll get back to the cortisol thing sometime today, it is a factor in repair of tendonous tissues

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    My joints improved markedly on tren. I was also running HGH, but at the same dose I had been running it for months before the cycle. I feel like test, tren, and deca have all been very kind to my joints, and winny was absolute hell on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calves of Steel View Post
    My joints improved markedly on tren. I was also running HGH, but at the same dose I had been running it for months before the cycle. I feel like test, tren, and deca have all been very kind to my joints, and winny was absolute hell on them.
    I would say this ^^^ is general consensus among aas users... most aas do make joints feel better, with the exception of a few, such as winny, that tend to 'dry' them out too much... There was a thread a while back that was a very interesting read, and probably sheds some light on this subject of alleviating pain(to some degree).. it was titled something like, 'naloxone for use in increasing endogenous test, using for pct"... something like that... that was the jist of it...

    It was a study, showing that test, and many other aas, cause body to release naturally occuring(in the human body) opiates... this, along with the fact that the mild edema in the joint can actually help alleviate pain while lifting, in addition to the faster recovery and repair afterwards, and increased blood/nutrient supply... all of these factors will help with joint pain

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    Wich other aas released opiates? thats crazy.but cool...
    Too many suckas, Not enough Time....Mad Lion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBLAZIN View Post
    Wich other aas released opiates? thats crazy.but cool...
    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...light=naloxone

    theres the thread... It's an interesting read...

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    Interesting read on the opiates and what not, but my curiosity is more towards Joint healing, not Joint relief, I am currently suffering from a very bad shoulder, and the doctor wants to operate, fuck that shit hes not cutting me open......Id rather find AAS (besides deca and EQ) that can help with the healing process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTW34 View Post
    Interesting read on the opiates and what not, but my curiosity is more towards Joint healing, not Joint relief, I am currently suffering from a very bad shoulder, and the doctor wants to operate, fuck that shit hes not cutting me open......Id rather find AAS (besides deca and EQ) that can help with the healing process.
    If your insurance will cover it, or you can afford it yourself, ask the doctor about PRP and if it could benefit you. It is cheaper than surgery and has helped a couple people I know from the gym.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTW34 View Post
    Interesting read on the opiates and what not, but my curiosity is more towards Joint healing, not Joint relief, I am currently suffering from a very bad shoulder, and the doctor wants to operate, fuck that shit hes not cutting me open......Id rather find AAS (besides deca and EQ) that can help with the healing process.
    How bad is your shoulder? They probably wont cut you open anyway... My shoulder was toast from a car wreck... I was still lifting, but I had several laterally torn tendons, bone marrow edema, bony protrusions, a ton if soft tissue hypertrophy, and rim rent tear on supraspinatus.. they fixed it all arthroscopic, while I was awake.... Hurts like absolute hell... But its fixed.

    If you just have some tendinous problems, without them actually being pulled off the bone. And.not too much scar tissue, no spurs or bony protrusions... You could try having them put cortisone in it... Then, use test or nandrolone... They have both been shown in clinical studies to help repair collagen.... Tren hasn't... And there are other factors with tren that would make me steer clear for healing shoulder

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    bump

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    Quote Originally Posted by overburdened View Post
    trust me, you don't want to go through what I went through half the day today before I finally went to ER...fucking back!!!
    I was trying to copy and paste from the book this tidbit of info is in(the cortisol receptor statement), but it won't let me...
    cortisol and/or adrenaline is released due to anxiety and stress....
    My personal thoughts on the tren 'anxiety' as well as some 'mental' effects of halo, a couple other 'high aggresion' steroids is this:
    I believe that there are a few aas(or their metabolites) that can cross the blood/brain barrier, and thus affect 'mental status', moods much more than others... This, more than likely, has never been studied to any great degree with tren, im sure, but probably not with halo either(even though it is fda approved for human use in the US)

    We do know, from research and clinical studies, that compounds such as testosterone do affect serotonin/ dopamine secretion(and probably to some degree, reuptake... via many different pathways), but I honestly think(and if anyone ever comes across a clinical study on the subject I would LOVE to have a copy) that a few aas, and/or metabolites do cross blood/brain barrier and have a direct effect, as well as indirect effects on the brain...
    That theory of yours is quite valid and i kind of agree with (i.e D-bol, Test etc) even though we may never know through medical studies or it will take quite long. The thing with strong adrogens like Tren is due to their nature they bind to such receptors on the CNS, that results in agression and even anxiety.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW34 View Post
    Interesting read on the opiates and what not, but my curiosity is more towards Joint healing, not Joint relief, I am currently suffering from a very bad shoulder, and the doctor wants to operate, fuck that shit hes not cutting me open......Id rather find AAS (besides deca and EQ) that can help with the healing process.
    IMO no AAS will help with an issue such as yours like HGH.
    Heard quite a few situations where guys had a fucked up shoulder for 3-5 years straight and when they hopped on HGH, miraculously the shoulder repaired to almost 100%.

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    thats what a friend keeps telling me Yaz, im definately gonna look into it

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    If its a tear, like off the bone, then nothing will help short of surgery. I have had surgery done in both shoulders ( a week and a half out from the second one), and I injected Igf-1, cortisone, and another peptide and it did jack shit.

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    There is a big difference between how someone's joints feel and how strong their tendons are. In general, steroids are injurious to tendons. Tthis includes steroids such as Tren, Deca, Test, etc. Most steroids decrease collagen synthesis...and the ones that do increase collagen synthesis end up damaging the tendons by promoting cross-linking. This results in tendons which may be larger, but they become stiffer and more brittle, which makes them weaker and more likely to rupture under heavy loads. Winstrol is a good exampkle of this. Recent reserach shows Nandrolone weakens tendons, as does Trenbolone...so if anyone is considering using steroids to "strengthen" their tendons, they are makinga big mistake.

    If you want not only larger, but stronger tendons, then use GH and TB-500. Both are excellent. There are afew other peptides which are effective for this purpose, as well.
    IronMagLabs 15% Discount Code: Mike15




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