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From Obese to being Ripped?? (To 'Juice' or not to 'Juice'...That is the question.)

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    Cool From Obese to being Ripped?? (To 'Juice' or not to 'Juice'...That is the question.)

    Hello Everyone,

    Ok, so here's the deal with my situation. I have PMed a few people but I thought I may as well just post this publicly to get everyone's honest feedback and suggestions. The question is should I *even consider* ANY KIND of Anabolic/Juice stack/cycle...or just keep doing what I'm doing. Here is where I am thus far, in both my training and diet:

    1. - I FINALLY HAVE A GYM MEMBERSHIP!!! Yes, FINALLY. I ended up getting a membership at a nearby 'Golds Gym'. It was either that or '24-hour Fitness'. I really like the vibe at Golds Gym...it's like everyone is there to do their own thing, no male bravado, no pissing contest...just do your own thing. However, if someone needs help with something...someone is always ready to jump in and assist in some sort of fashion.

    2. - I'M FINALLY WORKING OUT!!! Meaning, I didn't really have all of the tools and free weights available...but now I do. I ended up getting a few complimentary sessions with a personal trainer, but I only have 2 sessions left. I try to learn as much as I can and ask all the questions I possibly can as well.

    3. - My diet has completely changed. I'm not doing a strict 'Atkins Diet' per se, but it is 'Atkins-like'. More so, less on the 'high-fat' side, but more on the 'High-Protein' and 'Low-Carb' side.

    4. As far as results...I have started seeing results almost immediately. I am losing weight/fat...very quickly...some pants and shorts I can no longer wear without wearing a belt. Other pants, I have to make the belt tighter because they are still too lose.

    As far as muscle gains, I'm seeing that too...and it feels awesome!!!!

    I'm not taking any HGH or any kind of 'Juice'...just my diet and a Protein Shakes!!!

    ================================================== =============

    - I am 5'9

    - 34 Years Old

    - As of today, I way 281 lbs.

    - I am also at 31% BF...the trainer gave me the 'Pinch' test with some tool that they use.


    As far as my workouts, so far they are as follows:

    1. - Upper-body 3x a week. They usually consist of the following:

    - Incline Dumbbell Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Dumbbell Bench Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Decline Dumbbell Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Military Press and/or Military Dumbbell Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Butterfly/Pectoral Flys, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Lateral Cable Pull-down, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Bicep Curls, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Cardio afterwards (sometimes before as well) 20-30 minutes of moderately-intense cardio.

    2. - For Lower-body, 2-3x a week. They consist of the following:

    - Hamstring press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Leg extensions, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Half-squat Leg Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Leg Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Calf Press (calves), 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Cardio afterwards 20-30 minutes of moderately-intense cardio

    3. - As for my diet, my meals normally look like this on average:

    - EARLY MORNING (6:30am) Protein Shake (Whey or etc.)

    - BREAKFAST (7:30-8:30am) Scrambled Eggs and Turkey Bacon or Scrambled Eggs and Ground Beef

    - LATE MORNING-SNACK (10:30AM +/-) 1 Can Of Tuna (No mayo, just straight out of the can) ** or ** Protein Shake

    - LUNCH (Turkey and Spinach or Chicken and Spinach or just tons of shredded chicken de-boned) or bowl of ground-beef, etc.)

    - AFTERNOON SNACK (Protein Shake or Turkey Slices or something similar)

    - DINNER (Anything like the above lunch meals, but even less carbs...as in no spinach)

    - LATE NIGHT (Depending what time I go to bed, I may have some Protein or pure turkey slices or something). If it's after a workout...definitely a protein shake).

    *** So here are my questions:

    - What are your thoughts on this training routine? Am I doing too much? Am I doing to much for my chest?

    - What about Abs? I hear two different schools of thought on this. Some say don't workout your Abs because your 'core' is getting worked all the time by my other exercises...and others say I should focus on Abs.

    - I'm losing fat/weight fast...but it's happening all over my body...not just my stomach. I want to melt away the flab and love-handles in my lower abdominal area and even towards my pubic area. I mean, it's already happening...but I want it to happen faster...LOL.

    - Juice vs. Protein/Supplements...so far I do take Protein Shakes. But I was wondering, would it be better to just go on straight 'Test' either Prop or Cyp, instead of spending money on Protein and Creatine and etc? Yes I want to lose fat, but I also want to get ripped. My thinking was that by packing on more lean muscle, that would also help burn the fat I want as well.

    I can get any kind of Test or Juice I want...for the most part. My concern is if I should or not. I want the truth!!!

    I know some guys who are taking some kind of 'Pro-Hormone'...apparently it's not completely legal but they have purchased it in stores and apparently they are seeing significant gains with this.

    I know someone who is taking 1 injection of Testosterone Cypionate, once a week. He says just off that one shot a week, he is seeing huge results and his libido has sky rocketed (which I want also).

    So what say you all fine folk????

    Thank you soo much for your help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    BJ



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    - I FINALLY HAVE A GYM MEMBERSHIP!!!
    - I'M FINALLY WORKING OUT!!!

    And you want to use steroids right away? Please start reading and learning about diet/training for a couple of years.

    - What about Abs?
    I hit them hard 2 times per week, that's what I recommend.

    - I'm losing fat/weight fast...but it's happening all over my body...not just my stomach.
    That's normal.

    - Juice vs. Protein/Supplements...so far I do take Protein Shakes. But I was wondering, would it be better to just go on straight 'Test' either Prop or Cyp, instead of spending money on Protein and Creatine and etc?
    This question implies that you have zero knowledge about anything regarding diet/supplements/AAS.

    - I can get any kind of Test or Juice I want...for the most part. My concern is if I should or not. I want the truth!!!
    NO. Read the reply above. Also you have very high bf, you need to be at about 10-13%, the lower, the better.

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    Diet and train for 2 years at least before even considering steroids.

    You'll be amazed at what you can achieve if you stick to it.

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    since you are getting good results , i am not sure why you want steroids.....you are not a pro bodybuilder and you don't need any treatment involving steroids...so other than these cases i see no need to go on a risky plan. Why do you want to lose weight? to look better and to be healthier right? steroids are not going to make you healthier!

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    dude you need to chill.
    i have lost 105kg not pounds and i used aas to get the results when i was,nt happy with what i was left with. loose the weight 1st. get the bf down. you have to put the work in 1st and learn. you think your diet is right now. i highly dout that very much. no disrespect intended. you learn so much over the journey . i thought my diet was good when i lost the weight. aas is a whole new ballgame. live it , breath it , love it or forget it.
    you have to put the work in 1st. that is strip the fat. and you don,t need the gear for that. also research a decent diet. sorry could tear holes all through that diet. there are so many on hear.
    good luck
    Last edited by pittymick; 05-13-2012 at 03:28 AM.

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    Poppycock. Sorry but the whole workout for 2 years or get skinny first before boosting test is bullshit. At his weight he's likely test deficient and there is a ton of research concerning testosterone and insulin/metabolic resistance. Might as well just stay "eat less and you'll be skinny" despite it being proven that low calorie dieting has a 1-2% long term success rate. The added muscle from test won't burn more energy and help him get skinny faster?

    All the extra weight is creating estrogen from what test he has, how is not taking test going to help that? He needs test/AI both most likely.

    Go get your hormones checked, get a script for it, read everything you can and rock n roll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lee111s View Post
    Diet and train for 2 years at least before even considering steroids.

    You'll be amazed at what you can achieve if you stick to it.
    i would tend to agree with this. you need to know what your doing before you go gearing up. or you,ll have more injures than its worth. and shitty results with a shitty diet. (two words) fasted cardio.

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    You are not ready. Read, exercise. Maintain this for at least 1 year. All while learning your body. Besides, if you jumped on juice right now, chances are very high you will hurt joints, or screw your hormones up.

    Take your time. Good luck
    Tren...it's what's for dinner!

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    i personaly have lost 90-100lbs of fat and would say get your diet and workouts down pat there is a lot you can do naturaly before adding aas. maybe look in to some of the thermogenic fat burners but most importantly this has to be a lifestyle change not a diet or it will fail. good luck on your journey take measurements and photos along the way for motivation and to track progress even when it seems like you aren't making much.

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    If you are making progress stay with it. The only time it's ok to run gear at a high fat percentage is if it's true TRT and your natural levels are low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b1ggjoe View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    Ok, so here's the deal with my situation. I have PMed a few people but I thought I may as well just post this publicly to get everyone's honest feedback and suggestions. The question is should I *even consider* ANY KIND of Anabolic/Juice stack/cycle...or just keep doing what I'm doing. Here is where I am thus far, in both my training and diet:

    1. - I FINALLY HAVE A GYM MEMBERSHIP!!! Yes, FINALLY. I ended up getting a membership at a nearby 'Golds Gym'. It was either that or '24-hour Fitness'. I really like the vibe at Golds Gym...it's like everyone is there to do their own thing, no male bravado, no pissing contest...just do your own thing. However, if someone needs help with something...someone is always ready to jump in and assist in some sort of fashion.

    2. - I'M FINALLY WORKING OUT!!! Meaning, I didn't really have all of the tools and free weights available...but now I do. I ended up getting a few complimentary sessions with a personal trainer, but I only have 2 sessions left. I try to learn as much as I can and ask all the questions I possibly can as well.

    3. - My diet has completely changed. I'm not doing a strict 'Atkins Diet' per se, but it is 'Atkins-like'. More so, less on the 'high-fat' side, but more on the 'High-Protein' and 'Low-Carb' side.

    4. As far as results...I have started seeing results almost immediately. I am losing weight/fat...very quickly...some pants and shorts I can no longer wear without wearing a belt. Other pants, I have to make the belt tighter because they are still too lose.

    As far as muscle gains, I'm seeing that too...and it feels awesome!!!!

    I'm not taking any HGH or any kind of 'Juice'...just my diet and a Protein Shakes!!!

    ================================================== =============

    - I am 5'9

    - 34 Years Old

    - As of today, I way 281 lbs.

    - I am also at 31% BF...the trainer gave me the 'Pinch' test with some tool that they use.


    As far as my workouts, so far they are as follows:

    1. - Upper-body 3x a week. They usually consist of the following:

    - Incline Dumbbell Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Dumbbell Bench Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Decline Dumbbell Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Military Press and/or Military Dumbbell Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Butterfly/Pectoral Flys, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Lateral Cable Pull-down, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Bicep Curls, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Cardio afterwards (sometimes before as well) 20-30 minutes of moderately-intense cardio.

    2. - For Lower-body, 2-3x a week. They consist of the following:

    - Hamstring press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Leg extensions, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Half-squat Leg Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Leg Press, 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Calf Press (calves), 3 Sets x 12 Reps.

    - Cardio afterwards 20-30 minutes of moderately-intense cardio

    3. - As for my diet, my meals normally look like this on average:

    - EARLY MORNING (6:30am) Protein Shake (Whey or etc.)

    - BREAKFAST (7:30-8:30am) Scrambled Eggs and Turkey Bacon or Scrambled Eggs and Ground Beef

    - LATE MORNING-SNACK (10:30AM +/-) 1 Can Of Tuna (No mayo, just straight out of the can) ** or ** Protein Shake

    - LUNCH (Turkey and Spinach or Chicken and Spinach or just tons of shredded chicken de-boned) or bowl of ground-beef, etc.)

    - AFTERNOON SNACK (Protein Shake or Turkey Slices or something similar)

    - DINNER (Anything like the above lunch meals, but even less carbs...as in no spinach)

    - LATE NIGHT (Depending what time I go to bed, I may have some Protein or pure turkey slices or something). If it's after a workout...definitely a protein shake).

    *** So here are my questions:

    - What are your thoughts on this training routine? Am I doing too much? Am I doing to much for my chest?

    - What about Abs? I hear two different schools of thought on this. Some say don't workout your Abs because your 'core' is getting worked all the time by my other exercises...and others say I should focus on Abs.

    - I'm losing fat/weight fast...but it's happening all over my body...not just my stomach. I want to melt away the flab and love-handles in my lower abdominal area and even towards my pubic area. I mean, it's already happening...but I want it to happen faster...LOL.

    - Juice vs. Protein/Supplements...so far I do take Protein Shakes. But I was wondering, would it be better to just go on straight 'Test' either Prop or Cyp, instead of spending money on Protein and Creatine and etc? Yes I want to lose fat, but I also want to get ripped. My thinking was that by packing on more lean muscle, that would also help burn the fat I want as well.

    I can get any kind of Test or Juice I want...for the most part. My concern is if I should or not. I want the truth!!!

    I know some guys who are taking some kind of 'Pro-Hormone'...apparently it's not completely legal but they have purchased it in stores and apparently they are seeing significant gains with this.

    I know someone who is taking 1 injection of Testosterone Cypionate, once a week. He says just off that one shot a week, he is seeing huge results and his libido has sky rocketed (which I want also).

    So what say you all fine folk????

    Thank you soo much for your help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    BJ



    Immediately cease using whey protein, it's horrible for dieting....
    you don't need juice, stick with diet, working out, and cardio... someone already said this, I will reiterate it..Morning fasting cardio(45min-1hr..to begin with...), then cardio again later in the day after workout(30-45min)

    you can lose all the fat in the world like that...
    In the meantime, if you are even considering ever using aas... research, research, research!!!
    you have 3+yrs before you need to even consider using them, plenty of time to learn all about it....

    The workout you are doing will be fine for several months(you are a beginner, and you don't need any kind of extreme workout, you will get good results off what you have laid out for a while)

    We could all poke holes in your diet, but if it is working right now... keep doing it for another month or so, then come back and we will help you revise it...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by overburdened View Post
    Immediately cease using whey protein, it's horrible for dieting....
    whats your reasoning behind saying that whey is bad for dieting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibrant View Post
    whats your reasoning behind saying that whey is bad for dieting?
    I just posted a simplified answer to this very question in the diet and nutrition forum(thread is called 'how much is considered low carb" or something like that)

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    Get a hormone panel done. Keep working hard.
    Tell RC that LG sent you.


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    congrats on your efforts so far and good luck with the rest of your journey, might I suggest that you get your hormones checked as if you are defficient in test and high in estrogen then a TRT dose of Test and an AI to control estrogen will make a world of difference to you and then after some time on TRT you can revisit any thoughts of doing a cycle, however do all the research that you can on gear as it's often not the magic bullet that people assume it to be, good luck bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overburdened View Post
    I just posted a simplified answer to this very question in the diet and nutrition forum(thread is called 'how much is considered low carb" or something like that)

    After seeing this I'm going to replace my post workout whey isolate shake with a beef protein isolate shake and see what the difference is.

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    I agree with getting your hormones checked. If I were you, I'd look into using peptides for fat-burning, like the GHRP2/CJC combo or HGH frag. Then with your -BF% down and your homework done, you could get into AAS in a year.
    -Just my 2 cents as a former fatty

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    Yep you need to LEARN about diet and training for at least a year (I'd say it takes alot more than that to really understand it and find what works for you specifically). Read up on natural bodybuilding, follow those principles and you will be far better off when you are ready to cycle. Then you need to learn about gear also. Your bodyfat is very high and this will cause more side effects from the AAS, not to mention you just plain don't know jack yet about what you're doin. Follow a simple routine and clean up your diet for now, you will make progress doing anything at first but as you get further along you will need to tighten things up more.

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    Really? You've been working out for what a week, and you're asking should you juice? Come on dude.

    Get your bf down to 10-11% and then ask

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    Quote Originally Posted by msumuscle View Post
    After seeing this I'm going to replace my post workout whey isolate shake with a beef protein isolate shake and see what the difference is.
    Keep us posted... make a thread for it... I would like to know what you think, as would a lot of people i'm sure.... the carnivor by musclemeds is good!

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    I don't see anyone telling the 130 lb hard gainers "go eat and lift until your 50 lbs heavier" then come back. For that matter why do any of you us AAS, you should be able to just gain all that muscle with a clean diet after all! Like their aren't enough people telling overweight people "eat less". That shit doesn't work other than sending your metabolism into the shitter Instead of condescending attitudes why wouldn't you have a discussion like "add in some primo/deca/eq to help with joints etc. Jeffrey Friedman | The Downey Obesity Report



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    The fuck are you on about? I tell anyone under 200lbs to eat and train before even thinking about juice... Everyone does. You have made less than zero sense. -Zero sense in fact. Congrats

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    Angry fat man...


    I thought fat people were....ya know....jolly and whatnot? sad

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    Quote Originally Posted by overburdened View Post
    Immediately cease using whey protein, it's horrible for dieting....
    you don't need juice, stick with diet, working out, and cardio... someone already said this, I will reiterate it..Morning fasting cardio(45min-1hr..to begin with...), then cardio again later in the day after workout(30-45min)

    you can lose all the fat in the world like that...
    In the meantime, if you are even considering ever using aas... research, research, research!!!
    you have 3+yrs before you need to even consider using them, plenty of time to learn all about it....

    The workout you are doing will be fine for several months(you are a beginner, and you don't need any kind of extreme workout, you will get good results off what you have laid out for a while)

    We could all poke holes in your diet, but if it is working right now... keep doing it for another month or so, then come back and we will help you revise it...
    This is all perfect advice. If I could add anything else, it would be keeping your protein intake to 40-50% of your total calorie consumption. That leaves you with 30% of your calories coming from fibrous sources (green is better), and 20% of fats - with a lot of those being fishoils (2-3caps with each meal). The weight will fall off of you at your current state.

    Obese people lose weight faster than leaner individuals. You could expect to drop 10-15lbs your first week and 2-3+ in the weeks after that if the diet/training is dialed in right. If it isn't coming off, I highly encourage you to check your levels and see if there's any corrections needed. I would start with a hormone panel (about 50$ with the discount), and a thyroid panel (about 60$ with the discount). PM me for a discount code.

    Also, stimulants are mostly short-term in their effect and I never recommend them for people with a lot of weight to lose. Another small piece of advice would be take your shakes with your meals. Solid food will leave you feeling full, and the added protein from the shake will give you more satiety.
    Last edited by Moneytoblow; 05-15-2012 at 01:40 AM.

    "The P90X Dvd is great .... as a coaster for my drink or to spread mayo on my sandwiches."- Merkaba

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFHammer View Post
    I don't see anyone telling the 130 lb hard gainers "go eat and lift until your 50 lbs heavier" then come back. For that matter why do any of you us AAS, you should be able to just gain all that muscle with a clean diet after all! Like their aren't enough people telling overweight people "eat less". That shit doesn't work other than sending your metabolism into the shitter Instead of condescending attitudes why wouldn't you have a discussion like "add in some primo/deca/eq to help with joints etc. Jeffrey Friedman | The Downey Obesity
    Report


    I was just a bit over 130 when I started lifting.. 130-135, actually...I worked my ass off, learned about nutrition, learned about supps... Most are trash, but there's a few worth using...
    I started researching steroids several months after I began lifting, not because I planned on using them, because chemistry and anatomy, physiology, pharmacology...... It interests me greatly.... I gained 20 lbs the first year, thirty pounds the second year, and and 27 pounds the third year...with NO AAS!! NOT EVEN TEST BOOSTERS OR PH'S... And I'm not talking fat... Or water.. I'm talking muscle(and I'm sure some bone mass, as density increased due to heavy lifting)...
    Yes, you read that right! Ii gained 77lbs in 3 years natural! From 130-135 @ 10-11%nd to 212lbs at 7-8%bf!!
    After a 6mo plateau, i finally decided to take the plunge and get my feet wet... My first cycle was a four week 'blast' of deca(800/600/400/200)....
    Regardless of the fact that I knew better, from all the research I had done, I followed it with no pct...I couldn't get anything but that 1 vial, and I didn't have patience to wait and do it right.... I was lucky, I didn't really have any issues, no negative sides, and no major post cycle lag.... Kept 22 of the 27lbs I gained, and didn't do any other AAS for about a year, just worked my butt off in the gym, ate tons, and got good rest....

    Now, I respond differently... As many others do...but I learned more before I ever started using AAS than most will ever know(I am blessed with ya great memory and excellent comprehension though....

    This base of knowledge, base of muscle, and the work ethic to meet my goals and do my best in everything I do.... That is what got helped me accomplish what I have accomplished as far as bodybuilding yis concerned...
    AAS are not the answer to building your physique, they are a tool that will help you exceed what you could do naturally. They are not a magic potion, they are simply an addition to something you must already posses....
    I've seen countless people running tons of gear, not having the slightest idea even what they are putting into their bodies, not to mention what they are doing to their bodies....they are searching for that 'magic potion' to transform them into Adonis overnight...
    These are the people that, ten yrs later, look the same or worse...after running 30 cycles...they never sought out that knowledge(of nutrition, training, let alone anything at all about these chemicals they come to 'rely' on to even feel 'alive' at that point.....

    You won't get anywhere til you realize what it takes! AAS are a very small part of the overall equation to looking your best! Nutrition, the most overlooked piece of the puzzle, that is what is key! Dedication, training(knowledge, along with the actual physical aspect of it) comes next....then there are all the personal variables(these differ from person to person...they can be stress, job, prior obligations, such as family...this should come first for everyone!, lifestyle..drinking AMD partying every night won't help you meet any bb'ing goals..this list is nearly endless)...RIGHT THERE AT THE END, THAT'S WHERE AAS COMES IN!!! they are a small piece of the 1000+piece puzzle(not the other way around)

    Don't be a failure, some things cannot be reversed(liver or kidney failure, for one).. do it right, put the time, work, and commitment in first!
    Don't be one of the (huge percentage) guys that looks the exact same, half assed physique ten yrs into your AAS journey! If you are going to use them, be the guy that blows past every physical boundary possible for you... By doing it right, and giving it all you've got!

    All in due time is how you should look at your approach OP... All in due time! If you're gonna use AAS down the road, make it count! Get yourself to your prime physical condition first, then blow past it with the correct protocol!

    Good luck bro! Keep your head up! Keep up the good work! You will reach your goals very quickly if you stay motivated AMD work hard!

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    I'm trying to figure out why I even bothered to read all of this.
    Disclaimer: All information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. Everything posted is for entertainment purposes only. ANIMALHOUSE is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way use, encourage, nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hate4TheWeak View Post
    The fuck are you on about? I tell anyone under 200lbs to eat and train before even thinking about juice... Everyone does. You have made less than zero sense. -Zero sense in fact. Congrats
    Did you even read his post? He isn't asking about doing a 1g/w cycle, he asked if 1 shot a week might help him. Which it most likely would with an AI as he's 100 lbs overweight and the fat is wiping out his test and he's likely already insulin and metabolic resistant.
    People rightly get jumped on for asking for help without putting all their stats down, except in this thread he's getting jumped on because people didn't pay attention to the question. When they should have been asking him if he got a hormone panel instead of "go workout for 3 years then come talk to us".

    Testosterone replacement therapy improves insulin resistance, glycaemic control, visceral adiposity and hypercholesterolaemia in hypogonadal men with type 2 diabetes
    Androgens, Insulin Resistance and Vascular Disease in Men: Testosterone and Insulin Resistance

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFHammer View Post
    Did you even read his post? He isn't asking about doing a 1g/w cycle, he asked if 1 shot a week might help him. Which it most likely would with an AI as he's 100 lbs overweight and the fat is wiping out his test and he's likely already insulin and metabolic resistant.
    People rightly get jumped on for asking for help without putting all their stats down, except in this thread he's getting jumped on because people didn't pay attention to the question. When they should have been asking him if he got a hormone panel instead of "go workout for 3 years then come talk to us".

    Testosterone replacement therapy improves insulin resistance, glycaemic control, visceral adiposity and hypercholesterolaemia in hypogonadal men with type 2 diabetes
    Androgens, Insulin Resistance and Vascular Disease in Men: Testosterone and Insulin Resistance
    I know all about the benefits of trt but thanks. He clearly asked If He should use any kind of "Juice Stack"/Cycle... that's not a fucking trt question nor is this the trt section of the forum.

    If he's thinking about trt then perhaps a Dr. vist? Not a trip down the interweeb highway to ask if he should get on a juice stack/cycle in a chem enhancement board on a bodybuilding forum after ONE DAY of having a gym membership! And I didn't see anyone "jump on him".. which they rightly could have just for using the term "juice stack"..


    You are way off base here and you have no argument. Again you have made Zero sense whatsoever in any conceivable way....... High five

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    Quote Originally Posted by ANIMALHAUS View Post
    I'm trying to figure out why I even bothered to read all of this.
    Only good post in the thread^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hate4TheWeak View Post
    I know all about the benefits of trt but thanks. He clearly asked If He should use any kind of "Juice Stack"/Cycle... that's not a fucking trt question nor is this the trt section of the forum.

    If he's thinking about trt then perhaps a Dr. vist? Not a trip down the interweeb highway to ask if he should get on a juice stack/cycle in a chem enhancement board on a bodybuilding forum after ONE DAY of having a gym membership! And I didn't see anyone "jump on him".. which they rightly could have just for using the term "juice stack"..


    You are way off base here and you have no argument. Again you have made Zero sense whatsoever in any conceivable way....... High five
    I'm with HATE 100%
    Disclaimer: All information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. Everything posted is for entertainment purposes only. ANIMALHOUSE is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way use, encourage, nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.

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