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Primo instead of HCG while on cycle. Need some smart guys and endos to give feedback

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  1. #1
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    Primo instead of HCG while on cycle. Need some smart guys and endos to give feedback

    I read a while back that primobolan works through an elevation of LH.

    I immediately realized this means no shutdown or testicular atrophy while on primo at sufficient doses to cause an offsetting increase of LH. It would actually be better than HCG!

    You see, HCG, a female hormone, is LH in the male body. LH is the hormone that tells your boys to make test. So if you are on primo, your testes cannot atrophy while on primo for the same reason that they won't atrophy on HCG.

    The reason it's better than HCG is your LH is not being shutdown either. So your LH should come back quicker with clomid, nolva etc.

    Now, this is not pure theory for me anymore. I've verified it for myself. My boys come back when I inject primo while on.

    I originally surmised that primo might work a s stand alone trt. It doesn't. Primo has secondary actions that don't allow for that. But it would be good to always use while cruzing on test and while on cycle - if you can afford it.

    This is my thinking and experience but have found considerable suporting anecdotal evidence on bb forums as well. even though the posters had not figured out exactly what is going on.

    For one thing, it's an old school thing to cruise on primo because there is no apparent shutdown while it is very anti-catabolic.
    Last edited by airsealed2; 05-17-2012 at 01:32 PM. Reason: clarifying because I'm always needing to.

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    subbed

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    Do you have any studies showing Primobolan works through the elevation of LH? Steroids reduce LH.

    That sounds unlikely.



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    http://www.apollodoctors.com/Methenolone%20Enanthate(Steroids%20Injectable)_apo llo_doctors.htm

    What's interesting is side effect #2 & 3. I think there is going to be a run on primo...

    Side Effects:

    All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects.

    Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome:

    1. Acne
    2. Enlarging penis
    3. Increased frequency of erections
    4. Unnatural hair growth
    5. Acne or oily skin
    6. Enlarging clitoris
    7. Hoarseness or deepening of voice
    8. Irregular menstrual period
    9. Unnatural hair growth
    10. Unusual hair loss

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFHammer View Post
    http://www.apollodoctors.com/Methenolone%20Enanthate(Steroids%20Injectable)_apo llo_doctors.htm

    What's interesting is side effect #2 & 3. I think there is going to be a run on primo...

    Side Effects:

    All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects.

    Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome:

    1. Acne
    2. Enlarging penis
    3. Increased frequency of erections
    4. Unnatural hair growth
    5. Acne or oily skin
    6. Enlarging clitoris
    7. Hoarseness or deepening of voice
    8. Irregular menstrual period
    9. Unnatural hair growth
    10. Unusual hair loss
    that's the side effect profile listed for every androgen in the PDR(physicians desk reference)..nothing new there....

    airsealed2, if you have a link on that I would love to see it... I don't feel primo has ever shut me down before, but I haven't paid enough attention to know if it has brought my nuts back to any degree either

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFHammer View Post
    http://www.apollodoctors.com/Methenolone%20Enanthate(Steroids%20Injectable)_apo llo_doctors.htm

    What's interesting is side effect #2 & 3. I think there is going to be a run on primo...

    Side Effects:

    All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects.

    Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome:

    1. Acne
    2. Enlarging penis
    3. Increased frequency of erections
    4. Unnatural hair growth
    5. Acne or oily skin
    6. Enlarging clitoris
    7. Hoarseness or deepening of voice
    8. Irregular menstrual period
    9. Unnatural hair growth
    10. Unusual hair loss
    I like #6.
    DRSE: SEEK AND DESTROY


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    I dug up one long term reasonable dose study that in fact showed little to no suppression of LH.

    Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.

    The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

    Varma TR, Patel RH.
    Source

    Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

    Abstract

    Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

    PMID:2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmoe65 View Post
    I like #6.
    Lol. Well that is never gonna happen to me.

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    #8..... I'm out.
    Like people about as much as they like me. Never found a way to say fuck you politely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    Do you have any studies showing Primobolan works through the elevation of LH? Steroids reduce LH.

    That sounds unlikely.
    Thanks for taking a look bro.


    I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in my pm to that same point so everyone can see it... because I'm lazy and don't think or type unless I have to.



    You're right that it would have the effect of shutting off the LH switch like other AAS because of elevated androgens, except that it is elevating the LH directly. A similar example would be GHRH or CJC 1295 - though the feedback loop is different, and not nearly as rigid, the principle is the same.

    In other words, though it is subject to that same dynamic as other AAS, it is not as a practical matter because it is agonizing ithe LH directly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SloppyJ View Post
    #8..... I'm out.
    Yeah, kind of dangerous territory. Could be good or could backfire. At the very minimum you have to choose between a moody or aggressive lady. Of course throw in number six and it starts to tilt things in favor of female AAS use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    I dug up one long term reasonable dose study that in fact showed little to no suppression of LH.

    Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.

    The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

    Varma TR, Patel RH.
    Source

    Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

    Abstract

    Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

    PMID:2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    this is a study on proviron... are we talking about proviron or primo?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by overburdened View Post
    this is a study on proviron... are we talking about proviron or primo?
    oopsy....I will have to re look into this.



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    This is a write up I found, though I question it's complete accuracy due to the fact that the grammar is quite poor....


    The chemical name of Methenolone Enanthateis 17ß-hydroxy-1-methyl-5a-androst-1-en-3-one and has an active life of 5 days and can be easily detected in the urine for up to 3-8 weeks. Use of this drug does not lead to estrogenic side effects such as oily skin, acne..


    By stimulating the promotion of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and luteinizing hormone (LH), Methenolone Enanthate promotes protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, and muscle mass in as short as six to eight weeks. The non 17-alkylate steroid, the long acting anabolic with extremely low androgenic properties, also has the unique ability of inhibiting estrogen biosynthesis to a considerable extent. The list of benefits associated with Methenolone Enanthate does not end here, the steroid also leads to minimal effects on cholesterol levels and blood pressure.

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    This is referring to methenolone

    Ok, so this one looks much more believable and also has reference citations for the claims... Thank you airsealed2! The stimulation of lh is something I didn't know of primo...
    I would reason to guess that since it also increases SHBG, one would probably want to stack it with something such as proviron(to allow for a greater amount of 'free drug', referring to primo)... also, since proviron can stimulate sperm production(and lh production/release), the two together in a pct would make perfect sense. at the same time, you will not have much 'lag' post cycle by incorporating these two into your pct..
    I have used proviron in pct before(and definitely made pct much more tolerable, without compromising pct)


    It stimulates the promotion of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and luteinizing hormone (LH), resulting in the production of more testosterone. In just six to eight weeks, it also brings quick enhancements in terms of protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, and muscle mass. In such short time, the drug makes a visible effect on the body structure, making it popular with the athletes.

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    Proviron stimulates LH production? Even if one is say on a cruise dose of T? I wasn't aware of that but if so thats pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalash View Post
    Proviron stimulates LH production? Even if one is say on a cruise dose of T? I wasn't aware of that but if so thats pretty cool
    Proviron is dose dependent as far as effects on LH. Low doses do not reduce already low/normal LH but will lower high levels of LH. At higher doses Proviron shuts down T production so its absolutely suppressive dose dependently.

    Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7.

    The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

    Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.
    Abstract

    Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.

    PMID:6431212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



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    Bump interesting thread!

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    I will 100% will go on record as saying ANY reasonable amount of primo will cause shut down PERIOD.

    As for the proviron issue, do a search where I posted a study and TwisT failed to admit he was wrong, it's here somewhere. I want to say at doses of 100mg or less ED did not cause shut down. Until the thread is found it will be hard to tell. I'll look and see if I can find it.

    FOUND IT:

    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/an...off-cycle.html
    Last edited by XYZ; 05-21-2012 at 02:13 PM. Reason: found study

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    I've found this to be the case... hence my view of oct and pct (that differ from most people's)... I like to use proviron On cycle (50-75mg ed.. unless I want a little libido boost, I'll bump to 100 for a couple days)... and carry it into pct with hcg, clomid, nolva, and an AI(use diff ones for diff cycles)...this protocol has produced some of the best gains and post cycle retention I've had.... and prevented that dreaded pct 'crash'(prov keeps you feeling decent)...I've run prov at mod doses (50mg ed) for two yrs straight with no ill effects

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