Why the AR-15 and M-4 should not be used for their sustained rates of fire

[LAM]

I meant to post this months ago but forget. For the preppers out there this is some great real world info on what the AR platform can and can not be used for.

What Really Happened at Wanat | U.S. Naval Institute

 

[IronAddict]

Nothing really new there, the original M16a1 had its share of malfunctions and jamming in Vietnam. Many squads were caught with their weapons taken apart while they performed maintenance.

The M16a2 also had its share of problems, especially in that huge sandbox.

As a matter of fact, anything with lots of moving parts and OHT or any other lube will just attract sand, dirt like moths to a flame.

These weapons require lots & lots of care, you take care of your rifle and your rifle will take care of you.

 

[LAM]

Nothing really new there, the original M16a1 had its share of malfunctions and jamming in Vietnam. Many squads were caught with their weapons taken apart while they performed maintenance.

The M16a2 also had its share of problems, especially in that huge sandbox.

As a matter of fact, anything with lots of moving parts and OHT or any other lube will just attract sand, dirt like moths to a flame.

These weapons require lots & lots of care, you take care of your rifle and your rifle will take care of you.

for sure...i have noticed a lot of people on some AR forums talking about the AR-15 specifically as a SHTF type weapon and it won't last as that. seen some getting them modified for belt-feed ammo and using 100-round beta mags, etc. with that kind of usage a failed barrel is going to be the end result.

 

[IronAddict]

for sure...i have noticed a lot of people on some AR forums talking about the AR-15 specifically as a SHTF type weapon and it won't last as that. seen some getting them modified for belt-feed ammo and using 100-round beta mags, etc. with that kind of usage a failed barrel is going to be the end result.

But they look cool as hell..

You ever get a chance to fire the M-4?

 

[LAM]

But they look cool as hell..

You ever get a chance to fire the M-4?

I love the M4 that's what we carried on my boat team in the Navy. we also had guys outfitted with M-60's and then the mini-gun mounted on the bow of our craft so we never had to worry about getting into the hot barrel scenario like the guys at Wanat.

 

[dogsoldier]

I have trained with just about every military firearm made between 1970 and 1980. All are good, some are just better than others. The M16 and M4 are great weapons. Anyone who says the 5.56 round is ineffective has never seen anyone shot with one. The problem for me is that the military barrels are too light for long sustained fire. As you both know (or should know), even with belt feds, you have to watch the barrel for over heating. IMHO, if you want a true SHTF carbine it would have to be an AK. The downside is trying to hit anything past 200 meters it becomes a crap shoot. The best analogy I can give is the M16 is a Corvette and the AK is a 1975 Ford pickup.

 

[LAM]

I have trained with just about every military firearm made between 1970 and 1980. All are good, some are just better than others. The M16 and M4 are great weapons. Anyone who says the 5.56 round is ineffective has never seen anyone shot with one. The problem for me is that the military barrels are too light for long sustained fire. As you both know (or should know), even with belt feds, you have to watch the barrel for over heating. IMHO, if you want a true SHTF carbine it would have to be an AK. The downside is trying to hit anything past 200 meters it becomes a crap shoot. The best analogy I can give is the M16 is a Corvette and the AK is a 1975 Ford pickup.

and this is exactly why to really be prepared a person/family needs to have multiple caliber weapons. as you stated for distance one would be better off with the 5.56/.223 round but if you had to say shoot through some concrete block, etc. you better have that AK or something else that utilized a 7.62mm cartridge.

 

[bio-chem]

wow, i've never had a mental SHTF scenario where i'm overheating barrels. I've always thought with a very large supply of reloading components, an AR, and M1A, i'm doing better than most.

 

[LAM]

wow, i've never had a mental SHTF scenario where i'm overheating barrels. I've always thought with a very large supply of reloading components, an AR, and M1A, i'm doing better than most.

a standard milspec M4 barrel has a lifetime of about 8,000 rounds.

I first read this article about 8 months ago before I built my first AR from scratch. it made me think about a failed barrel and having to change one out. wanted to make sure I knew how to do it and what it felt like to torque one down to specs on my own just in case.

 

[dogsoldier]

LAM, the torque spec's on a AR barrel is stepped 90 pounds. By stepped I mean, torque to 30, back off torque to 60, back off, then finish at 90. However, the gunsmiths in the AMU and most of the Army gun plumbers would just cave man them down and call it good. Did you pick up a HBAR for your build? All my personal AR builds, even the 10" SBR are fitted with heavy barrels. Really makes a difference.

 

[LAM]

LAM, the torque spec's on a AR barrel is stepped 90 pounds. By stepped I mean, torque to 30, back off torque to 60, back off, then finish at 90. However, the gunsmiths in the AMU and most of the Army gun plumbers would just cave man them down and call it good. Did you pick up a HBAR for your build? All my personal AR builds, even the 10" SBR are fitted with heavy barrels. Really makes a difference.

yep, that's all I've been using. I've also found that the additional weight of the HBAR with a decent brake on it will noticeable reduce what little recoil there is from that size round.

 

[dogsoldier]

That too. You will also notice less hit wander from shot to shot as the barrel heats up.

 

[IronAddict]

I love the M4 that's what we carried on my boat team in the Navy. we also had guys outfitted with M-60's and then the mini-gun mounted on the bow of our craft so we never had to worry about getting into the hot barrel scenario like the guys at Wanat.

Nice. I'd like to get my hands on one, hell 60 too.

 

[IronAddict]

and this is exactly why to really be prepared a person/family needs to have multiple caliber weapons. as you stated for distance one would be better off with the 5.56/.223 round but if you had to say shoot through some concrete block, etc. you better have that AK or something else that utilized a 7.62mm cartridge.

Speaking of an AK, those are your timex of rifles. You can bury that thing in a hole,chamber open, dig it up and that thing will still fire.

I do have one of those.

 

[bio-chem]

8K rounds? I'm much less concerned now with wearing out a barrel. hahah

 

[dogsoldier]

Speaking of an AK, those are your timex of rifles. You can bury that thing in a hole,chamber open, dig it up and that thing will still fire.

I do have one of those.

Ah, the myth of the indestructible AK. The beauty of the AK is that it is but ass simple. It was designed for Russian plow boys who never held a firearm in their life to have a chance in street fighting in Moscow should the Huns return. It fit right in with the Soviet doctrine of mass fire attacks. Throw a lot of guys AK's blazing right at the enemy and if they have one guy still standing they win. A lot of ink and electrons have been spent on the noble/humble AK. How it can be buried for a century in a swamp and it will still work, drive a tank over it, it will still work, soak it in water, it will still work, drop it from orbit, it will still work. The real truth of it all is, all major military rifles will do the same damn thing. The dust bin of the middle east has been hell on the M4's because of the tight tolerances, but if the rifle is kept reasonably clean, it will still function. You get crap built up on the bolt rails and locking face of the AK, it will fail. Like all, I have my preferences for a great field rifle,for me it is the HK G3. However, I would not feel undergunned with any rifle or carbine made by the modern major powers. Of course in a firefight, nothing short of an uparmored Abrams tank outfitted with a 200 Gigawatt Illudium death ray would make me comfortable.

 

[Z499]

My ak manual says to clean once every 10 years. So yea for prepping its my AK's FTW. Every issue ive had with any of my AK's was when I was using a piece of shit South Korean stamped mag. My AR's on the other hand are more accurate and are just as reliable but they have to be maintained religiously. The AK is like a dirty whore that you can slap and call a bitch and it will still do what you want, and the AR is like a high maintenance woman that needs your constant attention so you can get what you want.

 

[IronAddict]

Ah, the myth of the indestructible AK. The beauty of the AK is that it is but ass simple. It was designed for Russian plow boys who never held a firearm in their life to have a chance in street fighting in Moscow should the Huns return. It fit right in with the Soviet doctrine of mass fire attacks. Throw a lot of guys AK's blazing right at the enemy and if they have one guy still standing they win. A lot of ink and electrons have been spent on the noble/humble AK. How it can be buried for a century in a swamp and it will still work, drive a tank over it, it will still work, soak it in water, it will still work, drop it from orbit, it will still work. The real truth of it all is, all major military rifles will do the same damn thing. The dust bin of the middle east has been hell on the M4's because of the tight tolerances, but if the rifle is kept reasonably clean, it will still function. You get crap built up on the bolt rails and locking face of the AK, it will fail. Like all, I have my preferences for a great field rifle,for me it is the HK G3. However, I would not feel undergunned with any rifle or carbine made by the modern major powers. Of course in a firefight, nothing short of an uparmored Abrams tank outfitted with a 200 Gigawatt Illudium death ray would make me comfortable.

1. Never said a century?
2. I have poured sand down the barrel of an AK and fired it?
3. Because it is simple.
4. It's not very accurate.
5. Thank you?

 

[LAM]

I just picked up an AK pistol at the gun show out here a couple weeks ago. haven't taken it to the range yet to get it sighted in but i'm looking forward to it, waiting for my caldwell shooting rest to get here.

 

[dogsoldier]

1. Never said a century?
2. I have poured sand down the barrel of an AK and fired it?
3. Because it is simple.
4. It's not very accurate.
5. Thank you?

My post was not really directed at you, just the couch commando comments one sees on the internet that many take as truth.

 

[IronAddict]

My post was not really directed at you, just the couch commando comments one sees on the internet that many take as truth.

My bad, lack of face to face. I wonder if that was a 1st on the interwebs.