Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent Crime

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    Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent Crime

    Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent Crime

    Because the findings so clearly demonstrate that more gun laws may in fact increase death rates, the study says that "the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths" is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
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    Nothing........really? What happened to to all the guns = crimes guys out there?
    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    Sheep get their news from the media, I get my news from Facebook. That's where the real unbiased news is found. any everyone from IM that is friends with me on FB knows this.

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    violent crime is higher in places with high rates of concentrated urban poverty, higher in places with high rates of inequality and social justice.

    more guns doesn't stop the US from turning into Mexico 2
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    violent crimes are highest where there are lots of blacks (not racist, because it's true)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standard Donkey View Post
    violent crimes are highest where there are lots of blacks (not racist, because it's true)
    violent crime is highest anywhere in the world were there is concentrated urban poverty. as income goes up the level of violent crimes go down.
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
    Nothing........really? What happened to to all the guns = crimes guys out there?
    They only share their opinion, they don't actually know anything about the subject.

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    I think all you have to do is look at the correlation between gun laws in the top 20 highest crime areas versus the violent crime rate. That seems to me to be a pretty solid indicator if "gun control" does anything at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    violent crime is highest anywhere in the world were there is concentrated urban poverty. as income goes up the level of violent crimes go down.
    Even in white populations? Serious question.
    It's an accurate statement that our current spending will not be increasing the debt We've stopped spending money that we don't have.

    -- Jack Lew, then director of the Office of Management and Budget, in Feb. 16, 2011 testimony before the Senate Budget Committee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    more guns doesn't stop the US from turning into Mexico 2
    It does if you use the guns to kill the Mexicans.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    It does if you use the guns to kill the Mexicans.
    according to the economic reports from the global think-tank the Club of Rome the avg US autoworker in 2052 will be earning wages equal to those in 1960 once adjusted for inflation.

    that has nothing at all to do with illegals/immigrants as they are not causing cumulative inflation on the USD at 25% a decade. since 1913 cumulative inflation on the USD is 2300%, that is thanks to the FED and it's monetary policy.
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    according to the economic reports from the global think-tank the Club of Rome the avg US autoworker in 2052 will be earning wages equal to those in 1960 once adjusted for inflation.

    that has nothing at all to do with illegals/immigrants as they are not causing cumulative inflation on the USD at 25% a decade. since 1913 cumulative inflation on the USD is 2300%, that is thanks to the FED and it's monetary policy.
    Nothing? You mean that supply and demand has no effect on wages? Someone should have told that the British during the Black Plague.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    Nothing? You mean that supply and demand has no effect on wages? Someone should have told that the British during the Black Plague.
    your trying to use 1800's economic "theory" in the year 2013. wage price mechanisms no longer follow "economic theory" models of growth/deflation not when you have fiat currency's and artificially low interest rates out of the central bank.

    the monetization of the US economy has changed all of the fundamentals. business use their own form of money which is credit, it is only denominated in USDs. the primary form of money used by labor to purchase goods and service is currency money which loses it's purchasing power steadily over time as the monetary base expands.
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Pretty much everybody here knows I'm a very hard core 2nd Amendment supporter and I'm a big fan of Breitbart too but, I'd caution against putting too much stock in that "study". In the first place it wasn't conducted by Harvard, it was simply published in one of their journals. In the second place, it's not so much of a formal study as it is an opinion piece by two highly educated and experienced criminologists. I definitely like thier opinion but, that doesn't give the paper any more credibility. Lastly, is the careful use of the word "corrolate". Some on my side of the argument have mistakenly tried to use this Breitbart article and refernced paper to assert that stricter gun control laws CAUSE more crime. That's not what the paper says. You have to remember that "cause" and "corrolate" are not synonyms.

    The bottom line is that I agree with the opinions put forth in the paper and I like how well they're backed up with hard statistics but, they're still just opinions.
    Rules? You mean we have RULES for that???

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    And there is the rub. It's backed by hard statistics. No, I don't think stricter gun control causes crime. I'll even concede to Lam the correlation between poverty and crime, however poverty isn't going anywhere. Poverty has been a fact of life regardless of economic model throughout the history of time. With that, knowing there will always be poverty, i'd rather a population be armed, and have the correlated fall in crime, than have an unarmed population where the criminals have free reign to exploit those most impoverished.

    My disagreement with LAM is that just because someone is poor it doesn't mean they have to play a victim.
    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    Sheep get their news from the media, I get my news from Facebook. That's where the real unbiased news is found. any everyone from IM that is friends with me on FB knows this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALBOB View Post
    The bottom line is that I agree with the opinions put forth in the paper and I like how well they're backed up with hard statistics but, they're still just opinions.
    I didn't read the entire paper so I'm not sure what opinions you are referring to but statistical correlation is not opinion. A literature review stating previous research has failed to show a correlation is also not an opinion, it's an objective statement that is either true or not. In the case of something like gun control if it does cause less violent crime then there should be a correlation and therefore it is meaningful that this correlation has not been found. In other words, if gun control has a significant effect then it should be possible to find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by troubador View Post
    it's an objective statement that is either true or not.
    the very nature of the objective (vs subjective) is that a statement or argument is true and factual and mind independent and not opinion. it it true regardless if a person knows it or acknowledges it to be true, that is the very nature of the objective vs the subjective.

    example: Wars bankrupt nations but make capitalists wealthy. that is a completely objective statement as it is supported by empirical data.

    E = I x R - objective

    E=mc^2 - objective
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Smoothy View Post
    Even in white populations? Serious question.
    Is there even such a thing as homogeneous white urban poverty? I wonder if anyone has tried to control for racial influence and what about rural poverty? The only really large U.S. city that I can think of that is mostly white and asian is San Francisco and it has a low violent crime rate but I bet not much poverty either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    your trying to use 1800's economic "theory" in the year 2013. wage price mechanisms no longer follow "economic theory" models of growth/deflation not when you have fiat currency's and artificially low interest rates out of the central bank.

    the monetization of the US economy has changed all of the fundamentals. business use their own form of money which is credit, it is only denominated in USDs. the primary form of money used by labor to purchase goods and service is currency money which loses it's purchasing power steadily over time as the monetary base expands.
    So if 25% of the labor pool disappeared today it would have no effect?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Smoothy View Post
    Even in white populations? Serious question.
    if you talking about other OECD country's with different demographics then there there is plenty of violent crime.

    Comparisons of Crime in OECD Countries
    http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    the very nature of the objective (vs subjective) is that a statement or argument is true and factual and mind independent and not opinion.
    I have google. What is your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    So if 25% of the labor pool disappeared today it would have no effect?
    a smaller population would put "some" upward pressure on wages but nothing significant. according to the ILO global wage reports the US because of it's low union density rate and no nationwide system to put upward pressure on wages has the highest percentage of low paid workers out of all the wealthy industrialized country's in the OECD at 25% of the total labor force. then there is also the 15-20% of the US labor force that is underemployed.

    there are dozens of long term problems with the US economy and the belief that there are just a handful of easy 1-step fixes to restoring some degree of sustainability is not not based on reality.
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by troubador View Post
    I have google. What is your point?
    misdirection. of course the only recourse of action he has when data goes against him is nothing but misdirection and getting one bogged down in the minutia, as if it mattered.
    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    Sheep get their news from the media, I get my news from Facebook. That's where the real unbiased news is found. any everyone from IM that is friends with me on FB knows this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bio-chem View Post
    My disagreement with LAM is that just because someone is poor it doesn't mean they have to play a victim.
    I never stated that there were necessarily "victims' but choice is an illusion, everybody is limited to the choices then can make in reality based on their socioeconomic status and their own person experiences in life which shape "their reality".

    you try to put your "current self" in their place with your family, values and level of understanding and experiences in the world but do you honestly think you can do with with a person who's own reality and choices are the exact opposite of yours?
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    a smaller population would put "some" upward pressure on wages but nothing significant. according to the ILO global wage reports the US because of it's low union density rate and no nationwide system to put upward pressure on wages has the highest percentage of low paid workers out of all the wealthy industrialized country's in the OECD at 25% of the total labor force. then there is also the 15-20% of the US labor force that is underemployed.

    there are dozens of long term problems with the US economy and the belief that there are just a handful of easy 1-step fixes to restoring some degree of sustainability is not not based on reality.
    I'm not saying that it's some great fix, but the idea that getting rid of illegal, who mostly take up low wage jobs, wouldn't have an appreciable effect on wages doesn't jive with reality.

    The single best thing the US could do is stop the needless wars. It's not an panacea, but it's a great first step.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    I never stated that there were necessarily "victims' but choice is an illusion, everybody is limited to the choices then can make in reality based on their socioeconomic status and their own person experiences in life which shape "their reality".

    you try to put your "current self" in their place with your family, values and level of understanding and experiences in the world but do you honestly think you can do with with a person who's own reality and choices are the exact opposite of yours?
    bwahahhaha. That is the victim mentality.
    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    Sheep get their news from the media, I get my news from Facebook. That's where the real unbiased news is found. any everyone from IM that is friends with me on FB knows this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    I never stated that there were necessarily "victims' but choice is an illusion, everybody is limited to the choices then can make in reality based on their socioeconomic status and their own person experiences in life which shape "their reality".

    you try to put your "current self" in their place with your family, values and level of understanding and experiences in the world but do you honestly think you can do with with a person who's own reality and choices are the exact opposite of yours?
    Have you ever been poor?


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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    Have you ever been poor?
    I know nothing first hand about living in that type of economic state. but I do know that I was born in raised in an environment that is the exact opposite of those born into poverty. so from that I think about a person whose life experiences and environment was the polar opposite of mine and that gives me some insight.
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM View Post
    I know nothing first hand about living in that type of economic state. but I do know that I was born in raised in an environment that is the exact opposite of those born into poverty. so from that I think about a person whose life experiences and environment was the polar opposite of mine and that gives me some insight.
    I'm not sure I buy into that. What I can tell you is that I did grow up rock-bottom poor. The idea that being poor is an excuse to do any crimes is wrong.

    It doesn't matter if you're poor, middle class or rich, everyone makes their own choices. I don't mean choices like "What car should I buy?", I mean choices like, "Will I steal?"

    Saying that you're stealing because you're poor is just a rationalization, at best.


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    increase in money supply causes inflation, poverty doesn't always cause crime there are poor peaceful countries, there are peaceful people ( tribes ) who live without being part of the world economy or have a monetary system. I think crime is a deeper problem with a more complex solution. I blame rap music

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    Most criminals don't go to Dicks's sporting goods to buy a legal, registered gun, they buy them on the black market. Our government wants to de-arm us, nothing more.


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