The General refuses to stand up

[NoviceAAS]

Skinnyguy thanks for the afirmation above.

As far as the whole HCG thing, I think ultimately its an argument over choice of words, and I do tend to defend the use of HCG, I believe it does more good than harm . I dont disagree it will hinder PCT , and depending on use can sppress the system, my argument was more just the blanket statement that HCG will shut you down hard. Suppress and hinder are very different from a hard shut down to me ,thats all .
Best regards, Novi

 

[chaos77]

As of my blood work date I was off Test for 2.5weeks. And it surprised me that I was so high, I guess I had some really good stuff. So I should just sit back & wait for everything to get to normal then and test again in about 4 weeks? Somebody said something about prostate which makes sense because its like the door won't open for the troops and my stream is a little week. As test clears does that clear up also?

 

[skinnyguy180]

Skinnyguy thanks for the afirmation above.

As far as the whole HCG thing, I think ultimately its an argument over choice of words, and I do tend to defend the use of HCG, I believe it does more good than harm . I dont disagree it will hinder PCT , and depending on use can sppress the system, my argument was more just the blanket statement that HCG will shut you down hard. Suppress and hinder are very different from a hard shut down to me ,thats all .
Best regards, Novi

I agree with that... I personally have yet to understand the difference between a hard shut down and a regular shut down? As "I" understand it, the longer you were running gears the harder it is to reboot.. I haven't seen the science behind a "hard" shutdown yet? I'm on trt so I just remain shut down in general.

 

[skinnyguy180]

As of my blood work date I was off Test for 2.5weeks. And it surprised me that I was so high, I guess I had some really good stuff. So I should just sit back & wait for everything to get to normal then and test again in about 4 weeks? Somebody said something about prostate which makes sense because its like the door won't open for the troops and my stream is a little week. As test clears does that clear up also?

Judging by your posts im assuming you started PCT right after your last pin. Also assuming your cycle went to week 20 and the longest ester you had was enanthate you would have needed to start PCT week 22. but i think there is decanoate which is longer than enanthate in that t400 hopefully you know.

I would go to the doctor and look into other avenues of treatment while you do your pct. unless you really want to wait another 4 weeks before you take that thing in for a check up.... hate to say it but your at that age its time to get a prostate exam.

 

[biggiesmallz]

second link was a good read,thank you , first took me to something about gyno.

Anyway yes I see through the desensitisation a long term reduction in production of natty test could occur, but Im still not in agreement with the blanket statement " HCG will shut you down hard" . Again in the article you referred me to it did mention dosage as playing a factor. Also keep in mind the reason HCG slows PCT down is not exactly because its "shutting you down" but rather lengthening the process by not letting your body do the work on its own. Also HCG stimulates test production, and unfortunately a part of PCT is letting those test levels crash so thats another factor why HCG would hinder the process.

I'll try and get a link to some of the PCT or fertility regimens I saw using HCG and actually at large doses. Unfortunately for us, there is a lot of contradictory info that is often available.

Notice in this particular instance both Lewellyn and Scally are using HCG during , although they do mention desensitization that is once again coupled with " strength and duration"

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-...mous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html

The first link I sent you to had the full PCT layout, with HCG included. Furthermore, this was a significant point to ponder;

HCG myth debunked:


There are 2 ways that could potentially desensitize Leydig Cells:

1. Prolonged LH deprivation: When you inject steroids, your LH production is halted at the pituitary, remember? So if you continue in a suppressed state for weeks upon weeks, your Leydig Cells could potentially become unresponsive, or desensitized. It is possible to reverse desensitization of the cells, but that has been proven to be quite a difficult task. So when you use hCG on cycle, the mimicked LH analog will maintain stimulation of Leydig cells so that you don't run the risk of rendering them useless. This level of maintenance will ensure a much healthier and speedy recovery and one of the most important reasons to use hCG on cycle.

2. Over stimulation/supplying of Leydig cells: There is no reason to use more than 500 IU of hCG at one time. And certainly not a good idea to run even that dose on a daily basis. You do not have an unlimited-ever-flowing-supply of Leydig cells. There is only so much stimulation hCG can do. What happens when you dose hCG really high, is that you're increasing intra-testicular estrogen. So you're thinking that you could use an aromatase inhibitor in that case, right? Nope. AI's are not effective treatment for intra-testicular e2. Furthermore; high doses is a surefire way to desensitize Leydig Cells. So we have a double whammy here. And this is just another reason to use hCG on cycle, and not "blast" hCG post cycle leading up to and/or during PCT.

For the sake of preventing another debate, Rich Piana is clueless.

Now, I understand the proper usage of HCG on-cycle... generally advised at 250iu bi-weekly, sometimes at 500iu bi-weekly, but from the source I came across they referenced a study that basically said there's marginal benefit from HCG when pinning 250 vs 500 bi-weekly, so with that understanding I don't see the need to pin more than 250. That said, is there some limited duration to which HCG should be used on-cycle?

I also heard conflicting information on long-term HCG use can possibly desensitize lydig cells to natural LH response. Any truth to that?

There's only so many cells to stimulate, and the doses of 1500 weekly max, spread over 3 or more doses is sufficient enough. If long term therapy was dangerous at those doses, it would mean that our very own production would desensitize cells, doesnt make sense, does it? 250 IU is not necessarily the magic number. Your goal should be to use the least amount of hCG that works for you. Recently, discussing my concerns with the lead urologist in (some magical place out there somewhere), we came to conclude that for me, as a TRT patient, my usual dose of 250 twice weekly is excessive. So we are planning on reducing the dose to 100 IU, 3 times weekly. Note that this urologist is not my doctor, but a friend and partner in a clinical trial.

Blasting hCG is unhealthy, and the increase in intratesticular E2, which cannot be managed with the commonly readily available aromatase inhibitors, is damaging.

Secondly, the Dr. Scally Power PCT protocol, if you care to look closer, only uses HCG during the first 2 weeks, and the whole PCT plan extends out 45 days total. The reason HCG is suppressive to the HPTA (and it IS suppressive) is because it mimics LH, which is the mechanism through which it raises natty test levels (artificially), but that also means that your NATURAL LH production is stalled, or suppressed, until you're completely off HCG. So, good sir, HCG does indeed suppress the HPTA. Full recovery doesn't start untill you're off HCG, which is also stated in the second link I sent you somewhere down the line... maybe page 2 if you look around you'll find it (the one strictly on HCG use, not the PCT link)

This one;
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/...cg-unraveled-valuable-resource-reference.html

Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

 

[skinnyguy180]

^^that is a nice post but you arguing semantics...

 

[NoviceAAS]

biggie, I apreciate a good argument/discussion, and thank you for the time you took to write this . But ultimately Im not entirely sure we disagree here . I think you are failing to see my argument was with the idea of a compound being "suppressive" vs causing "hard shut down" .

And yes I did see Dr Scally only recommends HCG for the first 2 weeks, but still it is incorporated. Early on in this thread theres was something like " Do not use HCG it will shut you down hard" . Again I disagree with that, because depending on the situation, dose and duration HCG could indeed be a good course of action.

Absollute "yes's and no's " dont seem to work in this game.

 

[biggiesmallz]

^^that is a nice post but you arguing semantics...

biggie, I apreciate a good argument/discussion, and thank you for the time you took to write this . But ultimately Im not entirely sure we disagree here . I think you are failing to see my argument was with the idea of a compound being "suppressive" vs causing "hard shut down" .

And yes I did see Dr Scally only recommends HCG for the first 2 weeks, but still it is incorporated. Early on in this thread theres was something like " Do not use HCG it will shut you down hard" . Again I disagree with that, because depending on the situation, dose and duration HCG could indeed be a good course of action.

Absollute "yes's and no's " dont seem to work in this game.

Ya I agree with you guys, I actually didn't see Novice's post above regarding the use of semantics and distinctions between "shutdown" and "hard shutdown" until I posted the above reply... in any case I see your point.

One more thing worth mentioning, is that above quote by Austinite is the most up-to-date information I have regarding the proper use of HCG, which, I'm willing to bet nickels to acorns is more up-to-date than Dr. Scally's PCT protocol. They've updated the testing on bloodwork (on the official scale) to some ultrasensitive sillyness, the whole discussion regarding the new standards/measures for testosterone testing and the damage from intratesticular E2 levels (if blasting HCG unreasonably) is all in here if you guys wanna skim through for more detailed answers

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/659422-common-cures-treatments-gyno.html

Somewhere in those 5 pages, probably page 2 or 3 I think

In any case just wanted to clear up the perceived confusion regarding the specifics of HCG use. It's generally (and works best) when used DURING the cycle to maintain testicular function and avoid testicular atrophy, and works well when used so. As far as PCT purposes, it's only really used to recover hypogonadism due to steroid abuse... so basically to re-instate fertility from what I presume to be a "hard shutdown" here's a PUBMED study on that;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778/

But that would be last resort. Again, HCG is not generally a PCT drug because it's suppressive to natural LH release, and so, at least in part, is suppressive to the HPTA. That's basically all I was saying with all of the above posts. Best used prior to PCT, or at most in the very early stages of PCT, and then give the SERM(s) a month or so following final HCG pin to do the rest of the work in recovering HPTA/healthy natural testosterone levels/production

Also for those interested, HCG has a bi-phasic half life, somewhere between 36 and 72 hours last I checked

 

[chaos77]

Test results look good and I want to start another cycle. I've been using TS400 blend but I'm wondering about the pros/cons of going to a straight Test.
I'd like to try a test/NPP or Deca cycle or some kind of bulking that won't kill my sex drive again.


CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 7.3 3.4-10.8 x10E3/uL TA
RBC 5.46 4.14-5.80 x10E6/uL TA
Hemoglobin 17.8 HIGH 12.6-17.7 g/dL TA
Hematocrit 51.9 HIGH 37.5-51.0 % TA
MCV 95 79-97 fL TA
MCH 32.6 26.6-33.0 pg TA
MCHC 34.3 31.5-35.7 g/dL TA
RDW 13.1 12.3-15.4 % TA
Platelets 177 155-379 x10E3/uL TA
Neutrophils 74 40-74 % TA
Lymphs 19 14-46 % TA
Monocytes 7 4-12 % TA
Eos 0 0-5 % TA
Basos 0 0-3 % TA
Neutrophils (Absolute) 5.4 1.4-7.0 x10E3/uL TA
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.4 0.7-3.1 x10E3/uL TA
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 0.1-0.9 x10E3/uL TA
Eos (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL TA
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL TA
Immature Granulocytes 0 0-2 % TA
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1 x10E3/uL TA
Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 80 65-99 mg/dL TA
BUN 22 6-24 mg/dL TA
Creatinine, Serum 1.29 HIGH 0.76-1.27 mg/dL TA
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 62 >59 mL/min/1.73 TA
eGFR If Africn Am 71 >59 mL/min/1.73 TA
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 17 9-20 TA
Sodium, Serum 142 134-144 mmol/L TA
Potassium, Serum 5.1 3.5-5.2 mmol/L TA
Chloride, Serum 103 97-108 mmol/L TA
Carbon Dioxide, Total 26 19-28 mmol/L TA
Calcium, Serum 9.7 8.7-10.2 mg/dL TA
Protein, Total, Serum 6.6 6.0-8.5 g/dL TA
Albumin, Serum 4.3 3.5-5.5 g/dL TA
Globulin, Total 2.3 1.5-4.5 g/dL TA
A/G Ratio 1.9 1.1-2.5 TA
Bilirubin, Total 0.5 0.0-1.2 mg/dL TA
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 65 39-117 IU/L TA
AST (SGOT) 24 0-40 IU/L TA
ALT (SGPT) 20 0-44 IU/L TA
Testosterone, Serum
Testosterone, Serum 725 348-1197 ng/dL TA
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 7.0 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL TA
FSH, Serum
FSH 10.4 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL TA
Estradiol
Estradiol 25.3 7.6-42.6 pg/mL TA
Roche ECLIA methodology