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    Muscle Media 2K and Dan Duchaine

    Muscle Media 2K and Dan Duchaine

    Anabolic Round Table I

    "On March 26, 1996, the first ?Anabolic Round Table? met at Dan Duchaine?s beautiful summer townhouse in Westbrook, Maine. The discussion was moderated by the Guru himself, Dan Duchaine. Suffice it to say, we all know about Dan?s accomplishments in the areas of nutrition and ergogenics. Will Brink was also present. An accomplished author, Will has just launched his first book entitled Priming the Anabolic Environment and has given training advice to top bodybuilders such as Vic Richards, Craig Titus, and Craig Licker. Will?s writings have been printed in bodybuilding and life-extension magazines worldwide. Will is also an NPC judge. Completing the threesome was Bruce Kneller, Dan Duchaine?s research assistant and a contributing editor for MM2K.

    What you?re about to read is the first part in a two-part series. What happens when you lock the aforementioned three individuals in a room with a tape recorder? Buckle your seat belts: you?re about to find out!!!

    DD: When people are dieting for a show or otherwise, what do you guys think of their doing forced reps in the training scheme? WB: No way!!! Unless the person is ?chemically enhanced,? I wouldn?t suggest forced reps while dieting hard.

    BK: I totally agree. You need extra time to recover when you?re dieting hard. This is an additional stressor on the body?s hormonal system.

    DD: [Charles] Poliquin says you should only do enough sets so that you train at 85% of pre-diet intensity. As soon as you dip below 85%, you need to change something.

    WB:I agree 100%.

    BK:Yes, I think the more your training changes from off-season to pre-contest, the worse you?re going to look. Whatever you?re doing for a workout off-season, you should stick with it as long as possible. If you?re shrinking, don?t eat more. Just take a day off from training to recuperate. I believe you retain more control by taking the day off rather than eating an extra 100 grams of carbs and 60 grams of protein.

    DD: Will, you?ve worked with top bodybuilders. Do they follow that advice?

    WB:Most of the time they do.

    DD: They really listen? That?s rare in bodybuilding.

    WB:Well, I think the keys to success in bodybuilding are drive and the ability to take constructive criticism from others. You can?t honestly assess yourself.

    BK:Who does Dorian Yates listen to?

    WB:Well, Dorian is pretty smart. He may be the exception.

    DD:I talked to Dorian years ago, and he is pretty smart?not brilliant, but you don?t need to be brilliant to be a great bodybuilder.

    BK: But let?s be honest. How many bodybuilders do you know who have the drive and ability to listen to criticism?

    WB:Not as many as should. More bodybuilders should follow good, objective advice from coaches.

    DD: How high in bodyfat should a bodybuilder go during the offseason? I was talking to Alq Gurley, who, at the time, weighed 218 lbs at under 5% BF [bodyfat]. I feel that?s way too lean for the off-season.

    WB:Alq is a great guy, but you?re right, five percent is far too lean for the off-season.

    BK:I say let the guys go to 11%-12%, maybe 15% for women.

    DD:Now see, I say don?t go much above nine percent for the guys. Twelve percent is pretty sloppy.

    WB:I agree with Dan.

    BK:Yeah, but some guys look like total crap in the off-season only to show up shredded for a show. It goes back to the drive and ability-to-take-criticism point Will has made many times before. I also think most of the guys are using some thyroid meds before the shows to get rid of that ?sticky fat.? DD:I?m sure most of them are. In fact, it?s a prerequisite.

    WB:Definitely. But is it Synthroid [T-4] or Cytomel [T-3]?

    BK: Cytomel. I don?t know of anybody using Synthroid if they can help it.

    DD: I know plenty of guys who are using Synthroid because it?s getting harder to find Cytomel.

    WB: Some guys are convinced they?ll spare more muscle with Synthroid, so I know a few who have played with it instead of Cytomel. The net effect seems similar between the two. You get ripped.

    BK: I don?t see any scientific basis for that. T-4 gets converted to T-3, so I can?t fathom how Synthroid would be any more muscle sparing than Cytomel. DD:Do you guys think it?s worthwhile to taper off of thyroid meds?

    BK:No way.

    WB: [laughs] Yeah, no matter what, you?re going to get fat when you come off. Taper or no taper, it?s inevitable.

    BK: Look, the receptors down-regulate so fast that it?s pointless to taper. It?s like using anabolic steroids?within two weeks, the receptors are so downgraded that you?re getting primarily an anticatabolic effect, and you have to really up the dosage of the juice to see the same effects you saw when you first started the cycle.

    DD:So what are you saying? You should be on a two-week cycle?

    BK:Cycle two weeks and then come off for four weeks.

    DD:But it doesn?t work because if it did, everyone would be doing two-week cycles, and they aren?t. Look, sometimes things seem great on paper, but they don?t work in real life. I think a two-week cycle has very limited value. The thing is that steroids have been around for 50 years, and people have tried every type of cycling theory imaginable...

    WB:So what?s the suggestion, guys?

    DD:The suggestion is, do what works, and what works apparently is staying on steroids all year round. Let?s be honest here, most of the top bodybuilders are doing that anyway...

    WB:Besides, most guys don?t really notice anything until a few weeks into a cycle, so how did you come up with this two-week down-regulation theory, Bruce?

    BK:It?s pretty much a documented fact, Will.

    WB:I still don?t buy it. Care to elaborate, Bruce? The theory seems rather odd...

    BK: Look, when these guys come off the juice, they all get a pseudo-Cushing?s Syndrome. They all have sky-high cortisol levels.

    DD: So the anabolic steroids are competing with corticosteroids for the receptor sites; thus, the body overcompensates and produces more cortisol?

    BK:Exactly!!! The mechanism is now anti-catabolic. The juice is competing with endogenous cortisol. Cortisol is a catabolic hormone, and blocking it is anti-catabolic. ?Anabolic? and ?steroid? are like jumbo shrimp?they?re oxymorons. Exogenous male hormones work predominantly via anti-catabolic pathways after two weeks and cause a dramatic rise in endogenous cortisol.

    WB:So when these guys come off the juice, there?s still that cortisol present, and they end up getting that ?moonfaced look.? OK, I see Bruce?s point now.

    DD:Well, what about insulin then? If a guy eats a ton of carbs a day and shoots 20 units of insulin, how come his receptors don?t shut down? Why is there no receptor down-regulation with insulin?

    WB:I think there probably is, but it takes longer than two weeks.

    BK:Will is right on the money. We know hyperinsulinemia leads to insulin resistance?the receptors will eventually down-regulate...permanently. DD:So bodybuilders using insulin are at risk of making themselves diabetic eventually?

    WB:Sure. That makes a world of sense. These guys will develop adult-onset diabetes mellitus. People who are obese and eat a ton of carbs when they?re young are at an increased risk of developing diabetes. The more carbs they eat, the more insulin the pancreas makes in response. So, their receptors get hammered with endogenous insulin, and they down-regulate. The same thing could surely happen to bodybuilders using injectable insulin. Playing with insulin is like playing with fire.

    Eventually, you?re going to get burned.

    DD:Ahhhh...but what if I used Glucophage [metformin] with it? This will force the receptors wide open...

    BK: That might be pretty dangerous, though. Using insulin with metformin might drive the blood-sugar level down pretty far. That might be...


    BK:My thoughts exactly!

    DD:Bruce, some of your theories seem a bit wacky on the surface. You should make a habit of giving a full explanation of such. I was reading your book today [Renegade Bodybuilding & Other Dirty Tricks], and I noticed that on all of your steroid cycles, you taper up after two weeks. Why taper up? All of the AIDS research says that full-blown dosages right off the bat yield more muscle than tapering up or down.

    BK:My theory is pretty much this?after two or three weeks when the receptors are really down-regulated, doubling your dosage will slam the receptors hard and increase the anabolic response, or if it doesn?t do that, it?ll produce a profound anticatabolic response by competing against cortisol more effectively. Either theory leads to more muscle.

    DD:Ahhhh...but the AIDS research proves differently...

    WB:People with AIDS are not always analogous with bodybuilders, Dan. What works in someone with a wasting disease might not work well, or at all, in a healthy person. Remember, boron increases testosterone levels in post-menopausal women, but it does nothing for any other group.

    DD: Regardless, it seems to me that the way pro bodybuilders do steroids, it?s at least 1,000 mg per week minimum.

    WB:I agree, you can do just about any steroid, and as long as you?re using massive, supraphysiological dosages, between 1,000 mg and 2,000 mg per week, you?re gonna grow like a weed.

    BK:OK, I agree. I remember a study mentioned by Dr. Jos? Antonio in MM2K [April, 1996] that stated cycles consisting of more than 2,500 mg of total steroids?it doesn?t matter what steroids?over 6 weeks produced dramatic size gains over those cycles of less then 2,500 mg over 6 weeks.

    DD: But that isn?t very much for a pro...that?s like 500 mg to 600 mg per week!

    BK:Yes, but that?s the point where you really start to see the dramatic gains in lean muscle mass. Anything less than 500 mg or so may not give you much.

    DD:That?s nothing. I?ve seen women use more than 500 mg per week. You could easily put 500 mg of Primobolan Depot in a woman.

    WB:I don?t know what girls you?re hanging out with, Dan.

    DD: Look, the women I care about use just one Anadrol-50 a day without much of a problem.

    WB:A whole tab a day?!? BK:[laughs] That?s a bit much, Dan.

    DD:The thing is, one Anadrol-50 a day is what...$3.00??? You?d make these women find all sorts of weird and expensive steroids??? If you think virilization is a problem, you can stick them on half a Proscar tablet a day with it.

    WB: I think most women might need more than just a Proscar tablet, Dan.

    DD: But some women are doing at least 600 mg of DecaDurabolin a week, and that gets pricey.

    BK:Yeah, and compared to what the guys use, that?s not much. Plus, the guys will shoot 50 mg of stanozolol every other day, on top of the Cytadren, on top of the growth hormone, on top of the IGF-1?which I think is useless anyway?on top of the insulin... Where does it end?

    DD: Speaking of insulin, if you?re doing insulin every day, should you also be doing growth hormone?

    WB:Absolutely!!! How much insulin are you talking about?

    DD:We?ll get into that later...

    BK:I?m really curious about insulin usage. You can use it and get big, bloated, and fat during the off-season. When you diet down, you end up coming in a mere two pounds heavier than you were last season even with the insulin. Why bother?

    DD:So then what is it, Bruce? Why are these bodybuilders getting a lot bigger than they were just five years ago?

    WB:Maybe it?s smarter training, smarter dieting, and not getting out of control in the off-season. It might be the quantity of drugs these guys are using.

    DD:Do you think clenbuterol in the off-season has helped anyone out that much?

    WB: Don?t know...not too many people use it all year round. Maybe...

    DD:And we had all of those weird steroids in the 1980?s. Now it?s just the basics. So maybe the drugs really aren?t that big of a deal?

    BK:No way. Say what you want. I still think Dianabol and its clones are the best mass builders around. Side effects notwithstanding, nothing, and I mean nothing, works like D-bol. Guys might have taken 5 or even 10 tabs a day back in the late 1970?s, but I?ve seen guys take 20 tabs a day now. And they get monster huge!!! People are more kamikaze today.

    WB:And don?t forget testosterone!!! Pros are using much higher quantities today. Some guys shoot 250 mg of Sostenon every day. Look, you can spend all kinds of money on the weird European stuff, but in the end, you?ll end up just as big with the bread-and-butter ?testosterone/D-bol stack.? Throw in some growth hormone...

    BK:Growth hormone is a waste!!! It costs far too much money, and it doesn?t do all that much...

    DD: By itself it doesn?t. I don?t know if I want to write it off though.

    BK:I think it?s 100% overrated, and I don?t think it does anything to build muscle, and its effects in burning bodyfat are minimal. As a stand-alone drug, GH is junk. But if you add insulin or a good steroid, there may be some synergism there. How much synergism is the real question. But overall, GH is not worth the money.

    DD: Maybe GH allows you to compensate for lax dieting?

    WB:Nothing compensates for sloppy dieting, Dan.

    DD:OK, let?s talk about getting ready for the show. How long can a bodybuilder hold his ?peak physique??

    WB:About a week or so.

    BK:I agree with Will.

    DD: All they have to do is use a diuretic every day?

    WB:You have to watch it with diuretics though, Dan.

    DD:Well, I love injectable Lasix, but since very few people can get it, they become stupid and try oral diuretics. This is very hard to do and very dangerous.

    BK: Agreed. I like ten milligrams of Lasix given via IV starting the night before the show.

    DD: The injectable works in like 15 minutes, and it?s much easier to control.

    BK:And the maximum dosage I would use is 40-mg IV push. If I don?t get the results I want from that much, I?m probably not going to get them at all. At the very least, I?d switch to a less-potent, nonloop diuretic.

    WB: Like Aldactone? Some guys like Aldactone because it?s a potassium-sparing diuretic.

    DD:Yes, but there is a very low limit to how much water you can pull off with Aldactone. Plus, you need to use it for around four to six days before a show.

    WB:The real problem with diuretics is that bodybuilders never seem to properly plan for them.

    BK:What do you mean?

    WB: It?s always a last-minute deal. It?s always the night before the show, and somebody tells them they?re holding too much water in the legs or lower back. Then they go looking for a diuretic. So time becomes a crucial factor, and they use whatever they can get.

    BK:Also with the diuretics, I believe most bodybuilders get too wrapped up in potassium paranoia. Look, for most of these guys, they won?t need much, if any, potassium supplementation. The problem seems to be overcompensation?they chow down bananas or potassium tabs, and that gets them in big trouble.

    DD: I know dozens of bodybuilders who got too much potassium and had to pull out of a show at the last minute due to its paralyzing effect.

    WB:And then they all use the same lame excuse, ?Stomach virus due to bad chicken the night before.? But, you must go into the show dehydrated because that?s ?the look.? Even if you?re flat, under the lights you look pretty good if you?re really dehydrated.

    DD:OK, opinions on IGF-1?

    BK:Virtually useless. A true waste of time and money.

    WB:I think IGF-1 is actually very dangerous.

    DD:Elaborate, Will.

    WB:Well, most of the IGF-1 floating around is that ?R-3? version. It has extra amino acids tagged onto the IGF-1 molecule to increase the half-life.

    DD:Your point being?

    WB:Well, remember that human growth hormone that was a little bit different from the stuff you actually make in your body?

    DD:Yes, didn?t something like 40% of the people who used it develop antibodies against it? Wasn?t it called Protropin or something like that?

    WB:Yeah, it was Protropin. But getting back to IGF-1...who?s to say you won?t develop antibodies to the ?R-3? version, too? You could get pretty sick if you had some type of nasty immune response to it.

    BK:Will is correct, but it potentially goes way beyond that. What if the antibodies to the ?R-3? version work against your own natural IGF-1? There?s like 98% homology between the ?R-3? stuff you get in the lab supply store and the stuff your body makes. What if you develop antibodies to the ?R-3? that cross react with your own IGF-1?

    DD:You?d be screwed!!!
    WB: This is why these kamikazes need to think before they inject all these new, unknown substances into their bodies.

    BK:What do you guys think of creatine monohydrate?

    DD: Well, I like those rice-crispy-like Phosphagain bars. They?re pretty tasty.

    BK: I like Phosphagen HP. I think Anthony Almada hit it right on the nose with that product. It?s damn clever. I wish I?d thought of it before he did.

    WB:Personally, I think you could just use creatine with some grape juice to get the same insulin-increasing effect. Why bother with the HP?

    BK:It?s convenient. And I like the taste; I get sick of grape juice. Besides, I can mix Phosphagen HP with water and not have to hunt for grape juice. I think it?s the best creatine supplement on the market.

    DD: Any thoughts on ?cycling? creatine monohydrate?

    BK:That might be interesting. What if a bodybuilder did 20 grams a day for a week and a half, then 10 grams a day for a week and a half, and then came off totally for a week and a half?

    DD:Why go off?

    BK: Because you get a big rush when you come back on again. I?ve used Phosphagen, and I like that rush feeling I get when I just start using it. So cycling it might be the way to go. I don?t think you get perfect ?leverage? if you use it straight through. Hey, whatever the reason, I?ve heard anecdotally that some top-ranked pros come off creatine two weeks before a show and then totally load up again five days before the show. And they usually come in looking awesome when they do this. I suspect they don?t have to worry as much about carbing up if they use creatine just before a show.

    Anabolic Round Table II

    On March 26, 1996, the first ?Anabolic Round Table? met at Dan Duchaine?s beautiful summer townhouse in Westbrook, Maine. The discussion was moderated by the Guru himself, Dan Duchaine. Suffice it to say, we all know about Dan?s accomplishments in the areas of nutrition and ergogenics. Will Brink was also present. An accomplished author, Will has just launched his first book entitled Priming the Anabolic Environment and has given training advice to top bodybuilders such as Vic Richards, Craig Titus, and Craig Licker. Will?s writings have been printed in bodybuilding and life-extension magazines worldwide. Will is also an NPC judge. Completing the threesome was Bruce Kneller, Dan Duchaine?s research assistant and a contributing editor for MM2K. Here is Part II of this fascinating discussion:

    DD: How important are genetics in bodybuilding? Rich Gaspari wasn?t genetically blessed, but he certainly was very successful in his heyday.

    BK: I think exceptional genetics allow you to train and diet less stringently.

    WB: No kidding!!! Have you ever noticed that some people train like crazy, have textbook diets, and still never do that well? Other guys just look at a dumbbell, and their arms grow two inches. They eat garbage and never gain any serious fat. I wish I were like that.

    BK: Don?t we all?

    DD: So how long do you think it takes to develop a pro physique? Do you think you need to start at age 15 or 16 and train for 5 years to be a top-notch pro?

    BK: I?d say it takes about five years to develop a pro physique. Some of the more genetically gifted people can achieve it in maybe three and a half or four years.

    WB: But either way, the training must be continuous and include proper dieting as well as exercise. It takes a certain, uncanny determination to make it.

    DD: So maybe the spike in testosterone levels one sees in puberty is the key to putting on the type of mass it takes to be a pro, all drugs aside.

    BK: Maybe. It might be that certain other enzymes have not fully kicked in yet, like 5-alpha-reductase or the P-450 pathway, so these younger guys can handle steroids or other drugs better metabolically then some guy starting at age 25 or 30.

    DD: But what about the natural testosterone levels? Do you think the heightened testosterone levels in puberty make the difference?

    BK: I?m not sure. I?d theorize that younger guys, like age 14 to 16, have free-testosterone levels that are way off the upper end of the scale.

    DD: Why so?

    BK: Look at any kid that age. They all have really oily skin, pimples, and even if they don?t work out, they start to gain some heavy muscle mass. These are signs of high free-testosterone levels.

    WB: Bruce may have a point. I remember when I was an adolescent. I was walking around with a permanent ?woody?; I had the oily skin; and my best gains in strength, percentage wise, happened around that time. You could possibly mimic that artificially with some steroids. But at age 30, you have so much 5-alpha-reductase that you?d lose your hair with the heavy-duty steroids.

    DD: What about the women?

    WB: Well, you have Bruce?s buddy, Ann-Marie Crooks [heavy laughter].

    BK: Look, I have nothing against Ann-Marie!!!

    DD: I hope not. She?s 220 lbs with 10% bodyfat. I?m going to help her with the Nationals, and she should do very well. Plus, she?s all natural...

    BK: All natural? [big grin] I guess we should define ?all natural? then. Ann-Marie may or may not be all natural. I don?t honestly know. Maybe she is drug free. It?s not like I?ve ever tested her for drugs. But, and this is a huge but, I don?t see too many 220-lb women with 32-inch thighs walking around who are ?all natural,? Dan.

    DD: No, Bruce, she is all natural, no drugs...

    BK: [interrupting] Again, I?ll go on record as saying I don?t know for sure, and I am certainly not accusing her of using drugs to attain that impressive physique. However, in my opinion, I just find it damn hard to believe that Ann-Marie got as huge as she is through diet and training alone. Will, what do you think...right now. Be honest and remember you are on tape. Answer this question, ?Ann-Marie Crooks, drugs or no drugs??

    WB: On tape? [laughs] I met Ann-Marie at the Arnold Classic, and I thought she was a perfectly nice and friendly person, so on tape, I?ll say whatever Ann-Marie says...

    BK: Yeah right, Will!!! Nice wimpy answer. Way to talk around a question.

    DD: Look, she weighed 180 lbs in high school, Bruce. Maybe she has that condition...congenital adrenal hyperplasia?

    BK: Dan, you can screw yourself with the congenital hyperplasia crap!!! I don?t buy it, and it?s not the clever excuse that some of these women bodybuilders think it is. You just don?t get ?that big,? male or female, without drugs. I?m not trying to single Ann-Marie out here. You could have mentioned any of the top women, and my opinion would be the same.

    DD: And that opinion is?

    BK: Well, if I were a gambling man, I?d give you heavy odds that all pros and aspiring pro bodybuilders, male or female, are on some very serious drugs.

    WB: Seeing that she [Ann-Marie Crooks] outweighs me by 30 or 40 lbs, and she?s a very friendly and nice woman, I will not say...

    BK: You just want to sleep with her, Will!!! Shut the hell up.

    [Silence for 10 seconds...then everyone bursts out laughing.]

    WB: I hope you quote that. I dare you. Put that in MM2K.
    [More laughter.]

    WB: What exactly is ?congenital adrenal hyperplasia??

    BK: It?s an inherited condition whereby the adrenal glands don?t make any or, at least, sufficient amounts of corticosteroids. Its prevalence is between 1% and 2%. When you see it in women, they tend to be very muscular with a male-fat-distribution pattern. Okay, I admit it?s not an ?uncommon? phenomenon, but even with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, some of these freaky women bodybuilders would not be nearly as big and ripped as they are without heavy androgen supplementation.

    DD: Many of the women do, however, have certain parameters when it comes to steroid use. Of course, I?m speaking in general terms here. Some won?t use a particular drug for whatever reason. Others just don?t give a damn and will use anything to get huge. I like working with the women who are all natural or close to it. It presents much more of a challenge for me as a training consultant to have this class of competitor stand next to someone who is juiced out to the max. It?s a hard thing to do, and most of the time, they can?t compete on that high of a level. But I learn the most from working with that kind of competitor. On another subject?I was talking about those Thiomucase suppositories with someone the other day. Why do they work better than the cream?

    BK: Rectabol, Dan?

    WB: [laughs] I?ve heard the same thing. Why does the suppository work better than the cream?

    BK: You?ll get a more systemic effect with a suppository as opposed to the cream. It?s pretty much a simple pharmacokinetic question. You?d see a more even distribution of Thiomucase with the suppository as opposed to a topical cream.

    DD: Well, how about that rub-on thyroid cream? I?ve seen people use a little bit of that, and it was like...handshakes city, complete twitching.

    WB: A topical thyroid?

    BK: What?s the dosage, Dan? Is it in milligrams or micrograms?

    DD: The topical is in milligrams.

    BK: Well, heck, that would explain the twitching. That stuff sounds way too dangerous. You risk thyroid storm if you use just a tad too much.

    WB: Can the stuff even be absorbed topically?

    DD: Yes, Will. The molecular weight of thyroid hormone is low enough to squeak through the skin with a good carrier like DMSO.

    BK: But the company doesn?t use DMSO, Dan. So what do they use?

    DD: Probably some alcohol substrate. BK: No, it?s more likely some proprietary transdermal carrier like they use in the nicotine patches...I don?t think you can legally use DMSO on humans anywhere in the world as a drug-delivery system.

    WB: So could you get the same effect by just grinding up some Cytomel and dumping it into DMSO?you know, that great ?solvent??

    DD: Cytomel or Synthroid?

    WB: Well, Cytomel. Isn?t the T3 molecule smaller than the T4?

    BK: Cytomel is smaller than Synthroid, the difference being pretty insignificant as Synthroid just has an extra iodine group tagged on it. T4 has 4 iodine groups, while T3 has only 3 iodine groups. Other than that, the molecules are virtually identical.

    DD: The whole idea of a topical thyroid is for last-minute fat loss in tough areas. It?s useless unless you?re at five or six percent bodyfat. It?s like telling someone at 15% bodyfat to use Lasix to get ready for a photo shoot. It just won?t work.

    BK: You guys know what?s funny? Not to get off the subject, but people often ask me, ?As his research assistant, what do you think of Dan Duchaine, the Steroid Guru?? These people are often pretty shocked to hear that I think you know as much about nutrition as you do about drugs and that you?re well versed at integrating both. It?s odd that you?re known as the ?Steroid Guru? and not the ?Nutrition Guru.? I mean, your articles of late have been more on nutrition.

    DD: Well, there isn?t much controversy in nutrition, and people like to read about controversy.

    BK: But the drug stuff gets boring pretty quick, Dan.

    WB: Maybe it does for you, Bruce, because you?re an expert in that area, and you actually consult Dan. But for the population as a whole, without your background in chemistry, toxicology, and pharmacology, the drug stuff is not boring and is, in fact, quite fascinating. Remember, not everyone is an expert. If they all were, there would be little need for magazines, and we?d all be out of jobs.

    BK: But you can only give the same advice so many times before you just get fed up.

    WB: Well, keep in mind, there are always new people to educate, people just getting into the arena who are curious. There will always be people picking up a barbell for the first time.

    DD: [jokingly] Yeah, and they should all be taking one or two grams of some testosterone a week, so they?ll get huge. Forget the pyramidtaper schemes. Use it all at once because you?re going to be screwed no matter what when you come off anyhow.

    BK: And might I add, throw out that HCG or Clomid because it will only prolong the inevitable...your nuts will shrink eventually when you come off.

    DD: But I wonder if you use Cytadren at 250 mg a day, can you prevent your nuts from shrinking?

    BK: That would seem to be the way to go. If you use an anti-aromatase like Cytadren or Teslac while on a heavy cycle, you won?t experience much, if any, nut shrinkage.

    WB: Right. I agree with Bruce. Blocking the aromatization won?t affect natural testosterone production. Despite cramming in like 1,000 mg of testosterone cypionate a week, you?ll still produce the same amount of testosterone as you were before you went on the juice.

    BK: And any tissue that produces something, like your nuts making testosterone, is not going to atrophy. Good call, Will. People who use just Primobolan or Winstrol V don?t experience any nut shrinkage, but those people are pretty rare. If the drug doesn?t aromatize into estrone/estradiol, you?ll preserve the integrity of that feedback mechanism, and you won?t have shrunken testes.

    DD: Okay, I?m going to change the topic. Did you ever notice that in some shows, they?ll polygraph the guys for drug use, but they won?t ask the fitness women?not the bodybuilder women, the fitness women?to do the same?

    BK: Who cares? Like it?s so hard to beat a polygraph.

    WB: Oh yeah, how so?

    DD & BK[in unison]: Ben Gay under the armpits!!!

    WB: How does that work?

    BK: A polygraph only detects changes in skin conductivity. When you lie, the electrical conductivity changes in your skin. Pain does the same thing. So if you put Ben Gay under your armpits or put a tack in your shoe, you?ll change the conductivity of your skin, and the polygraph will be of no use. They could ask you your name, and it would appear as if you were fibbing even if you told the truth.

    DD: You could always put a little on your scrotum, too.

    BK: You know, you are one, funky, weird-ass dude, Dan!!!

    DD: [laughs] I?m America?s favorite bodybuilding pervert and proud of it.

    WB: More like the ?Howard Stern? of bodybuilding if you ask me.

    DD: Back to the women fitness competitors. I think some of them are using drugs to stay in shape.

    BK: Well, certainly not to the degree of the bodybuilder types!!!

    WB: No, but I bet a lot of them use some clenbuterol and thyroid to keep the fat off as well as some Winstrol V to get a little muscular or to preserve what muscle they already have.

    DD: I can see that. I?d say they need to be careful because if they come in too lean or too muscular, they actually seem to get marked down. The judges seem to like the fitness competitors at around ten percent bodyfat.

    WB: So should they be polygraphed to keep it all fair?

    DD: No, why bother? The polygraphs rarely nail people anyhow for reasons we?ve already jived on.

    BK: What about Glucophage [metformin]? Anybody really use it?

    DD: A lot of people are saying that at 1,600 mg people are getting really hard on it.

    WB: I might suggest Glucophage over insulin as it?s less dangerous. BK: I believe it comes in a 500-mg and an 850-mg tablet, so what do you suggest? Two of the 850?s a day?

    DD: Or 3 of the 500?s, somewhere around there. The stuff is really cheap any way you divide it.

    WB: What about amphetamines?

    DD: Which ones? I think too many bodybuilders are being stupid by using methamphetamines to stay really shredded. It kills their appetites.

    BK: It may do more than just ?kill their appetites.? It may kill them if they use it. Crank is bad news. Even the phentermine resins like Ionamin that bodybuilders use are really dangerous.

    WB: Plus, amphetamines are really addicting. Coming off amphetamines is a lot more difficult than coming off steroids. You can get really messed up.

    DD: But do they care? Nooooooooo!!!!! When you come off amphetamines, you feel like you want to die, you get suicidal, and you have zero energy. They?re bad news.

    WB: What about Nolvadex?

    BK: Another useless drug in my opinion.

    DD: That?s a tough call. I think some of the women who use it end up looking really funny in the face. Plus, a little bit of estrogen is actually good for putting on mass. So I?m not so sure about Nolvadex.

    BK: People, well, guys who use Nolvadex never seem to get as big as the guys who don?t use it, all else being equal. You definitely need a little bit of estrogenic action at the receptors to get a good size-building response. Not a lot, just a tad, but you still need it.

    WB: Nolvadex was good when it was all bodybuilders really had, but can get lean and prevent gyno with other stuff.

    DD: Okay, ephedrine or clenbuterol, which is better?

    BK: I prefer ephedrine as it agonizes the beta3 receptor which does not down-regulate, so you can stay on ephedrine longer than you can on clenbuterol.

    WB: Bruce and I discovered that over half of ephedrine?s thermogenic response comes from stimulating the beta3 site.

    DD: I think in the short run, clen is better.

    BK: And you?d use it how?

    DD: As much as you can tolerate or until your blood pressure [BP] hits 150/90.

    WB: You won?t need very much clen to get your BP to 150/90, Dan.

    DD: You?d be shocked.

    BK: No, I agree with Will. I think three to four a day would do it.

    DD:Perhaps initially, but when the beta2 site attenuates to it, you can go much higher. I?ve seen bigger guys use 10-12 clenbuterol tablets a day.

    BK: But you?re missing something here.

    DD: Okay, what?

    BK: Clen also has mild beta1 agonist activity?although less than its beta2 agonist action. And the beta1 site will not down-regulate as fast as the beta2 site will. Profound beta1 agonism has a positive inotropic and chronotropic effect on the heart.

    DD: Okay, in English now.

    WB: What he?s saying, Dan, is that too much clen will really overstimulate the heart. It will contract more frequently and much harder. This might not be a good thing.

    DD: Well, I?ve never heard of anyone dying from a clen overdose...

    WB: Make that ?yet.? Also, the odd thing with clenbuterol is that it seems to work really well the first time you use it, and then it really doesn?t do all that much.

    BK: Yeah, Will, I?ve heard the same exact thing about clenbuterol. It works really well the first time you use it, then not at all after that. Go figure.

    DD: Okay, how many grams of protein do you need to gain mass?

    BK: I say two grams of quality protein per pound of lean bodyweight, just to be safe.

    WB: I agree, 1.5 to 2 grams is a safe bet. Anything less than that and you really have to watch the other types and quantity of food very carefully.

    BK: Protein should not be a problem for anyone. If you haven?t consumed enough by, say, 8:00 p.m., just chug down some Designer Protein or Myoplex Plus. It?s literally that easy.

    DD: How about dietary fat? I think you need around 30% of total calories to come from a good dietary fat source.

    WB: Try to convince bodybuilders of that. I agree with you fully, Dan. You must have fat. Too many people try to keep dietary fat at ridiculously low levels, like ten percent. They suffer because you need fats for healthy skin and hair, not to mention a healthy metabolism.

    BK: Yeah, you need around 25%-30% dietary fat, or you?ll start to see slower gains or no gains. Too many people get too paranoid about fats.

    WB: I think you?re correct, Bruce. Part of the reason people are using more steroids today is because in order to get the same anabolic response on a low-fat diet, you really need a ton of steroids. Plus, I think you really can?t make your muscles look ?full? without sufficient fat.

    DD: What about rep ranges for sets while trying to build muscle?

    BK: I like six to ten reps. I know some people can gain by doing those ?pumper? sets of 20 reps, but for most people, 6-10 is where they?ll see the best gains.

    WB: That?s six to ten reps to positive failure, of course. I might even say go as low as four reps once in awhile.

    DD:What about steroid ratios, injectables to orals?

    WB: I?m not so sure that matters as long as the total quantity is around a gram a week.

    BK: Of course, there?s always the 18 year old who gains 20 lbs in 6 weeks by using a mere 3 Dianabol a day...

    WB: Yeah, but now you?re talking about a first timer on the juice.

    DD: It?s odd that the first cycle is the best one for gaining size. To me, that tells me the receptors never make it back to baseline.

    BK: You may have a point there, Dan.

    WB: No, he?s hit it right on the nose. The first cycle, no matter what it is, tends to be your best. This phenomenon seems to be universal.

    DD:Well, gentlemen, let?s wrap it up.

    BK: Great. Will, Dan, it?s been fun.
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