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  1. #1
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    Question Protein + Creatine + L-Glutamine






    Hi, I've got a couple questions...

    For my post workout shake, is it ok to throw in the glutamine and plain creatine with my protein shake (also has 4 stawberries in it).
    I understand that you should use grape juice in the morning before breakfast to get the creatine in your system, what about glutamine can I just drink it with water? Also, if I'm trying to just get plain creatine into my system without all the sugar, is it possible to just down it with water instead of the grape juice?

    I'm currently bulking, and from what I've read so far this is how I'll be using my glutamine and creatine:

    On days:
    Glutamine: 30 mins before workout, after workout, before bed
    Creatine: morning before breakfast, after workout

    Off days:
    Glutamine: before breakfast, before bed
    Creatine: morning OR before bed

    Will this be enough for my bulk?

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
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    Alaric,

    1. Protein
    You should consume enough protein to equal your body weight daily. It is recommended to create a 5-6 meal daily schedule every 2-3 hours apart that includes roughly 45-50 grams of protein maximum until you satify your maximum intake.

    2. Creatine
    As for the monohydrate powder form generally you want to consume 10 grams daily on a 3 week on and 1 week off program.
    Take 5 grams 30 minutes before workout, and 5 grams after workout.

    3. L-Glutamine
    Take minimum 5 grams daily. The best time to take it is after your workout. Some of the guys here say to take up to 15 grams.
    They split it up 5 grams before workout, 5 grams after workout and 5 before bed.

    All 3 of these can be taken together or seperate with water if you wish, or any other favorite drink.
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    If you are bulking, you are wasting your money on glutamine. As for the creatine, chuck the grape juice and throw some dextrose in your post workout shake, it will have several benefits, namely:

    * it will shuttle the creatine into the muscle cells
    * it will replenish lost muscle glycogen stores
    * it will cause an insulin spike, shutting down cortisol production

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    Why are you wasting your money with Glutamine if you are bulking? All the big bulkers here including Prince and Tank take L-Glutamine abundantly.

    Also as far as insulin spike, why would you need that on post workout. I would think you benefit from an insulin spike on a pre-workout shake.

    As for dextrose, many of the creatine suppliers provide that in the creatine. I don't think the brand I take contains it though...but sure works for me.
    Last edited by Randy; 12-22-2003 at 01:04 PM.
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    Originally posted by Randy
    Why are you wasting your money with Glutamine if you are bulking? All the big bulkers here including Prince and Tank take L-Glutamine abundantly.
    Really? Wow. That's a terrific reason to use it.

    Now, care to tell me what its intended use would be for bulking, and just how it goes about doing whatever you believe its intended use to be.


    Originally posted by Randy Also as far as insulin spike, why would you need that on post workout.
    Because the workout causes you to secret cortisol, causing you to enter a catabolic state. Insulin combats that, as insulin is an anabolic hormone.

    Generally speaking catabolic bad, anabolic good.


    Originally posted by Randy I would think you benefit from an insulin spike on a pre-workout shake.
    Really? Care to explain why?

    Originally posted by Randy As for dextrose, many of the creatine suppliers provide that in the creatine. I don't think the brand I take contains it though...but sure works for me.
    Point being?

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    Twin,

    Your turning this around on me. I simply asked why bulkers are wasting their money using Glutamine?

    Your the first person I ever heard say that. Based on my research, as well as the fact that that Tank and Prince are taking it... To me that is a very good reason to take it. I respect both of them and trust their knowledge and judgement my friend.
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    Originally posted by Randy
    Twin,

    Your turning this around on me. I simply asked why bulkers are wasting their money using Glutamine?

    Your the first person I ever heard say that. Based on my research, as well as the fact that that Tank and Prince are taking it... To me that is a very good reason to take it. I respect both of them and trust their knowledge and judgement my friend.
    Just because person X takes substance Y doesn't mean that Y does shit.

    And even if it does, if (1) you are going to be spending your money, and (2) your are going to be putting a substance in your body, you should know what for, and you should have some reasonable amount of certainty that it will do what you hope it will do.

    The fact that glutamine in general is a waste of money for most people is not a new concept and I can point you to many studies showing why.

    The fact that glutamine is particularly useless when bulking is even more well established, and recognized in the industry.

  8. #8
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    Thanks Twin....Very useful information
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  9. #9
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    Faulty logic and reasoning, drawing you to a false conclusion, is your loss, not mine.

    Remember when you thought fish oil worthless?

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    I never said fish oil was worthless Twin...
    I just have better things to do with my time than argue with you here ....

    You have a great day my friend
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    Correct, you never said worthless. Here is what you said:

    Page 1 of the thread:

    Originally posted by Randy
    But again TP - for those that are slim and healthy working out consistantly, are the benefits of taking fish oil substantial enough to justify taking it?
    And again, page 1:

    Originally posted by Randy
    The key word is more like benefit, rather than justify. They could hand out fish pills free of charge, but if the health benefits are very slim and I get fish burps, then why take em.
    Then, the last post of the thread, you are handing out fish oil advice.

    Originally posted by Randy
    300 sounds low.

    I believe the way Jodi calculates your requirement is she adds both EPA/DHA to form a total. Then this total is generally recorded in Milligrams. Then take that milligram number and convert it to grams by moving the decimal to the left 3 places. Then take that number and divide it by 4. That will be how many pills you need to take. You want to take up to 4 grams a day I believe.

    But splitting is definately better. This way it distributes the Omega3 throughout your body consistantly through the day in metered quantities. Many of these things work like vitamin C. Your body only takes what it needs and drops the rest. I'm not sure if that happens with fish oil, but even distribution makes more sense than dropping 10 pills in one sitting.
    Interesting.

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    Wouldnt Layne love to see this. Many top Pros are huge despite their diet and supps, but that doesnt mean because Pro A takes it means you should, and you will get huge. Take nubain for example. Tom Prince use to be quite hooked on it, look at some old pics of him from a year or two ago. You can see the tracks running up his arm. Hes a big guy, so if we apply your logic, I guess we should all be baining up pre WO. It may seem like a far strecth, but it is the same way you linked glutamine and Prince and Tank, whoever they are.

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    prolangtum,

    Sorry if you misunderstood my message, I think you've read into it much to deeply. I've been studying bodybuilding for years. This does not mean I am an expert, but I certainly do not take products just because Pro A takes it. I do thank you for your concern though . While I did say that Pro A and Pro B take it, I surely have done my homework prior to my consumption. I am one who believes in the benefits of taking L-Glutamine. Now both you and Twin Peak are certainly entitled to your opinion. If you believe it's a waste of money, again that's up to you. I could have gone on and on with facts supporting the benefits of L-Glutamine to Twin, but personally I don't feel I need to waste my time doing that. I feel very comfortable with the products I take for the time being .
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    too each his own, if you believe it works for you, by all means buy it

  15. #15
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    Thanks for your blessing prolangtum. It really means a lot
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    hey all of you "scientists" just remember that steroids were not anabolic until the late 1980's even though bodybuilders were using them for 30 years to get bigger and stronger.





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  17. #17
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    Thanks for bringing this info to light Prince
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    Originally posted by Prince
    hey all of you "scientists" just remember that steroids were not anabolic until the late 1980's even though bodybuilders were using them for 30 years to get bigger and stronger.
    Yeah, that's a relevant point to this discussion.

    While certain groups did not recognize the anabolic properties of AAS, most certainly MANY scientists did, as far back as one can reasonably guess.

    And this isn't about science. When I advised the thread starter to think twice before spending money on glutamine when bulking, Randy's excellent argument about why it was good was because you and Tank used it. Now, this is no disrespect to either of you, but that is a shitty argument, and you (Prince) know it.

    I'd not want someone to say, use compound X because TP does. I'd want the person to understand why they are using it, and through what mechanism of action it would (supposedly) provide benefit.

    That is all I have mentioned here.

    And by the way, who in this thread has claimed to be a scientist?

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    Randy forgot to mention gopro along with Tank and myself!

    I was just being sarcastic in the sense that it often takes science awhile longer to catch up with what "athletes" have already found to be worthwhile and effective.





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  20. #20
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    Oh yeah, can't forget our ole pal Gopro
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    Originally posted by Twin Peak

    The fact that glutamine is particularly useless when bulking is even more well established, and recognized in the industry.
    no offense TP... but you just spent your time in this thread asking people to back up what they say... then you state this... wtf is this supposed to mean? seriously bro... if you're going to ask other people to back their statements up, don't go throwing around garbage BS like this...
    Are you kidding me????

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    LoL, Now this sounds like a great justification for your BS Twin .
    Come on now. Do you really believe that I am taking Glutamine just soley because Prince, Gopro, Tank, and many of the others are .. I do have a brain Twin. You think just because I didn't justify it to you, this is all I based my decision from? I told you right from the beginning that I had more to do with my time than to justify my reasons to you. You will always find pros and cons to anything. It is up to you whether you go with a product or not. You made it clear that you are against the product and that's fine. Just don't be a prick to people that support it. And if it's an argument your after, you better search elsewhere. I have better things to do with my time bud.

    And go ahead, take the last word...seems like your good at it

    Originally posted by Twin Peak
    Yeah, that's a relevant point to this discussion.

    While certain groups did not recognize the anabolic properties of AAS, most certainly MANY scientists did, as far back as one can reasonably guess.

    And this isn't about science. When I advised the thread starter to think twice before spending money on glutamine when bulking, Randy's excellent argument about why it was good was because you and Tank used it. Now, this is no disrespect to either of you, but that is a shitty argument, and you (Prince) know it.

    I'd not want someone to say, use compound X because TP does. I'd want the person to understand why they are using it, and through what mechanism of action it would (supposedly) provide benefit.

    That is all I have mentioned here.

    And by the way, who in this thread has claimed to be a scientist?
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    Ok, so you lose body glutamine when cutting. So how do you explain not more than 10% making it through the gut and your supposed great results?

    Oxidation of glutamine by the splanchnic bed in humans.

    Haisch M, Fukagawa NK, Matthews DE.

    Departments of Medicine and Chemistry, University of Vermont, Burlington, Vermont 05405, USA.

    [1,2-(13)C(2)]glutamine and [ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine were infused for 7 h into five postabsorptive healthy subjects on two occasions. On one occasion, the tracers were infused intravenously for 3.5 h and then by a nasogastric tube for 3.5 h. The order of infusion was reversed on the other occasion. From the plasma tracer enrichment measurements at plateau during the intravenous and nasogastric infusion periods, we determined that 27 +/- 2% of the enterally delivered phenylalanine and 64 +/- 2% of the glutamine were removed on the first pass by the splanchnic bed. Glutamine flux was 303 +/- 8 micromol. kg(-1). h(-1). Of the enterally delivered [(13)C]glutamine tracer, 73 +/- 2% was recovered as exhaled CO(2) compared with 58 +/- 1% of the intravenously infused tracer. The fraction of the enterally delivered tracer that was oxidized specifically on the first pass by the splanchnic bed was 53 +/- 2%, comprising 83% of the total tracer extracted. From the appearance of (13)C in plasma glucose, we estimated that 7 and 10% of the intravenously and nasogastrically infused glutamine tracers, respectively, were converted to glucose. The results for glutamine flux and first-pass extraction were similar to our previously reported values when a [2-(15)N]glutamine tracer [Matthews DE, Morano MA, and Campbell RG, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 264: E848-E854, 1993] was used. The results of [(13)C]glutamine tracer disposal demonstrate that the major fate of enteral glutamine extraction is for oxidation and that only a minor portion is used for gluconeogenesis.

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    The purpose was to determine if glutamine supplementation would prevent a loss of lean mass in athletes during a 12-day weight reduction program. It was hypothesized that supplementation would spare lean body mass. Subjects (n=18) exercised and dieted to create a 4186kJ·day-1 energy deficit and a 8372 kJ·day-1 energy deficit on days 1-5, days 6-12, respectively. The glutamine (GLN) group (n=9) ingested 0.35 g·kg-1 body mass of glutamine while a placebo was administered to the remaining subjects. Body mass (BM), lean body mass (LBM) and fat mass (FM), were measured at days 0, 6, and 12. GLN and placebo groups both lost significant amounts of BM, LBM and FM. There were no significant differences between groups. The findings indicate little benefit for retention of lean mass with supplementation of glutamine during a short-term weight reduction program.

    Glutamine supplementation did not benefit athletes during short-term
    weight reduction
    Kevin, J. Finn, Robin Lund and Mona Rosene-Treadwell
    http://www20.uludag.edu.tr/%7Ehakan...n4/7/v2n4-7.htm


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    Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9. Related Articles, Links

    Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

    Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

    College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

    The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

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    This is from HST site, Haycock is no dummy:

    There is no real benefit for someone looking to build bigger muscles. That 10% of dietary glutamine that gets past the GI tract is taken up by the liver where it is converted into sugar (gluconeogenesis) and stored as glycogen in the liver.

    Don't let in-vitro research fool you into thinking oral glutamine will have an effect on a healthy individuals muscle mass. Yes, glutamine does regulate protein synthesis to a certain extent under some situations. However, you can't make it happen by taking it orally. Don't let ads with some pro-bodybuilder holding a bottle of glutamine fool you. Even if that pro-bodybuilder is taking it...it isn't doing anything for him either.

    Here are a couple good "in-vivo" research studies to start with:

    1. Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T. Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9.

    2. Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C. The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Feb;16(1):157-60.

    Keep in mind that if you are eating protein powders, especially any thing with whey in it, you are getting plenty of glutamine. The question of glutamines worth in the newsletter centered on its effect on building mass and/or strength, not anything to do with the gastrointestinal track.

    In short, only 47-50% of orally administered glutamine can be expected to make it past the liver and other organs, into the blood stream. And only about 10% can be expected to reach extracellular spaces.[Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ. Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. 1999 Jun;86(6):1770-7] Now, this is the main argument against glutamine. 90% of the glutamine you take orally never even makes it to your muscles. This isn't to say it is wasted. Your GI tract loves glutamine from reasons explained earlier. If you are having intestinal problems nothing is better. If you are trying to increase protein synthesis by loading glutamine, it isn't going to work.

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    Originally posted by prolangtum
    If you are trying to increase protein synthesis by loading glutamine, it isn't going to work.
    From the data given it will increase protein synthesis... it's just a matter of how much it will increase it... correct?

    How can he make that statement... because it seems only around 10% is getting to the muscles it's doing nothing? It seems with the data given by these tests... you're getting a benefit... none of the studies say glutamine taken orally does nothing... it's just the level of benefit in question here. And, it would seem the benefit of this orally taken glutamine could be greatly affected by the diet of the individual...

    I'm not a scientist like all of these guys who conducted the studies... but even with the data given, there is some subjectivity as to the level of benefit you receive... but it seems there is still a benefit, even if smaller than advertised....

    I don't even claim to be an expert on this, just trying to understand what is actually being presented here.
    Are you kidding me????

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    holdDaMayo, look at the study above Haycock's comments

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    And this is from Will Brink, who you guys promote on your site

    "I think the best we can say about glutamine is it (may) be useful for gut health in some gut related pathologies, it (may) be useful post op, and (may) be useful for preventing/treating OTS in athletes as some data found low glutamine levels correlated to OTS, but true cause and effect data of glutamine to OTS is lacking. Glutamine is just not an anabolic or even anti catabolic supp in healthy athletes."

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