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Fast twitch fiber formation or recruitment..?

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  1. #1
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    Question Fast twitch fiber formation or recruitment..?






    What is more important to strength training? The creation of more fast twich fibers or recruitment of the ones that already exist through adaptation of the CNS?

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    Thats a tough one, but I'd have to go with the recruitment of more existing fibers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieope
    What is more important to strength training? The creation of more fast twich fibers or recruitment of the ones that already exist through adaptation of the CNS?
    When you say "creation" of fibers are you referring to those fibers that tend to be more intermediate, but through strength training with heavy weights, "morph" into more fast twitch fibers?

    Since you cannot really control the above phenomenon you should focus on trying to recruit as many fast twitch fibers as you can that already exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gopro
    When you say "creation" of fibers are you referring to those fibers that tend to be more intermediate, but through strength training with heavy weights, "morph" into more fast twitch fibers?

    Since you cannot really control the above phenomenon you should focus on trying to recruit as many fast twitch fibers as you can that already exist.

    Oh GP, but you can control the above with the proper training. I would still agree that it is more important to recruit the ones you already have since it is generally the limiting factor.
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    Fiber recruitment is a very misunderstood phenomena. Most people think that heavy lifting recruits fast twitch fibers and higher reps slow twitch.

    The recruitment of fibers is based upon the recruitment of motor units. Smaller motor units tend to consist of slow twitch fibers which have a low threshold of recruitment. Thus smaller units are recruited first with larger one's coming if required. So, heavy lifting works both slow and fast twitch, not only fast twitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Oh GP, but you can control the above with the proper training. I would still agree that it is more important to recruit the ones you already have since it is generally the limiting factor.
    I hope you are not saying the hyperplasia can be controlled ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAM
    I hope you are not saying the hyperplasia can be controlled ?
    No, I don't think he's speaking about hyperplasia, but about the mechanism by which the body will adapt certain fibers to become fast or slow twitch based on the type of training the body is faced with regularly. So, he is talking about the already existing fibers changing from intermediate to either fast or slow twitch, not actual fiber splitting.

    And no, this cannot be "controlled." It can be influenced, but not controlled.

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    Ok...that's what I thought but wasn't sure

    Yea, there are definitely no guarantees when it comes to converting fiber types
    William F. Buckley describes a conservative as, "someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop." - and then proceeds to drag civilization back to times best left in history's dungheap.

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    Thanks for the answers.

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    It can be controlled, but not finely controlled. By training the proper energy system you end up with more of the enzymes associated with that energy system in the muscle. So by doing this, you are controlling it since the more oxidative enzymes you have in the area, the more type IIa fibers will act like type I fibers and with more glycolytic enzymes in the area the more they will act like type IIb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    It can be controlled, but not finely controlled. By training the proper energy system you end up with more of the enzymes associated with that energy system in the muscle. So by doing this, you are controlling it since the more oxidative enzymes you have in the area, the more type IIa fibers will act like type I fibers and with more glycolytic enzymes in the area the more they will act like type IIb.
    You see, what you call control I call influence. While you can "do" the "right" things in order to try and make something happen physiologically/chemically in the body, you cannot control whether it will actually happen or to what extent. You can do all the right things to spur on hypertrophy, but that does not mean it will happen. We can use what we know about the human body to try and influence outcomes, but we cannot control it.

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    Semantics my friend, semantics. You could argue that you can't "control" what you eat, only influence it as well. We are saying the same thing I believe.
    If sense were common, everyone would have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Semantics my friend, semantics. You could argue that you can't "control" what you eat, only influence it as well. We are saying the same thing I believe.

    Almost, but not quite. You CAN control what you eat (forget about the psychological aspect)...if you want to eat 10 oz of chicken breast you can measure it out and eat it.

    You can lift a weight of your choice for 10 reps to try and influence growth in a given bodypart, but you cannot control that growth, b/c if we could, we would all be huge.

    There are things that are done consciously that are in our control, but there are functions of our body that are out of our control, but that we can try and influence based on what we know.

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    Go pro.. i just got my bottle of cex..can i ask u one thing about it..what do u mix it with is it ok to mix with my protein shake?

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    Quote Originally Posted by justin22
    Go pro.. i just got my bottle of cex..can i ask u one thing about it..what do u mix it with is it ok to mix with my protein shake?
    I mix it in water, but you can put it in a shake if you wish.

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    You are both right. Training in a certain fashion will cause an increase in oxidative mitochondria in the type II fibers thus making them more of a hybrid fiber. The caveat is, of course, that this is an adaptation by the body and thus not guaranteed. I think that is GoPro's point. I agree with Dale that there really is no argument between you two, just a misunderstanding of words used.

    Now, how this is relevant to training progress is probably the real question. Hyperplasia in humans in NOT proven (although it MAY occur). Your real goal with training should be to do so in a progressive fashion while maintaining similar form and technique on a given movement. If you do that and are consuming sufficient calories you virtually guarantee good results in terms of size and strength assuming you have the hereditary ability to increase further in size and strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason
    You are both right. Training in a certain fashion will cause an increase in oxidative mitochondria in the type II fibers thus making them more of a hybrid fiber. The caveat is, of course, that this is an adaptation by the body and thus not guaranteed. I think that is GoPro's point. I agree with Dale that there really is no argument between you two, just a misunderstanding of words used.

    Now, how this is relevant to training progress is probably the real question. Hyperplasia in humans in NOT proven (although it MAY occur). Your real goal with training should be to do so in a progressive fashion while maintaining similar form and technique on a given movement. If you do that and are consuming sufficient calories you virtually guarantee good results in terms of size and strength assuming you have the hereditary ability to increase further in size and strength.
    Yes, you have illustrated the point I was making...it is an adaptation which, is likely to happen to a degree, but we are not in control of how much.

    As far as how it is relevant to training is if more fibers can be converted there may become more "potential" for growth. Hyperplasia is another issue and you are right, has not been proven in humans, althout my personal belief is that IT DOES in fact occur.

    As far as training needing to be progressive IN SOME MANNER, I totally agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gopro
    There are things that are done consciously that are in our control, but there are functions of our body that are out of our control, but that we can try and influence based on what we know.

    Like blood sugar, which will, along with the psychological aspect, control what you eat. You can't forget about the psychological aspect unless you forget about the psyche, which you cannot. My point is that you really have no control over anything by your definition. Case in point supply and demand. You can WANT 10 oz of chicken breast, but if there is none at the grocery store or you have no means to prepare it you cannot have it. That is out of your control.

    By the way GP, I am not arguing with you, just providing another viewpoint.
    If sense were common, everyone would have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Like blood sugar, which will, along with the psychological aspect, control what you eat. You can't forget about the psychological aspect unless you forget about the psyche, which you cannot. My point is that you really have no control over anything by your definition. Case in point supply and demand. You can WANT 10 oz of chicken breast, but if there is none at the grocery store or you have no means to prepare it you cannot have it. That is out of your control.

    By the way GP, I am not arguing with you, just providing another viewpoint.
    LOL...I know what you are trying to say. Basically, what I am saying is that there are certain systems of the body that are under our conscious control...some are actually, partially...and some are not at all. We can control our hand if we want to make a fist, but we cannot control our liver. However, we can learn about how certain things that we can consciously control might influence the reactions within our body.

    We can control trying to train a certain way to get fibers to convert, but pretty much after the training part, we can't do anything else...its up to our body to do the rest, which will happen or not happen to a degree that we cannot control.

    I can influence you using special "sales tactics" to buy something I am selling, but I AM NOT in control of the final outcome.

    Thats all I am saying.

    I'm sure we can go round and round with this one, LOL!

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    I am sure Icould "influence" you to talk to the higher ups and get a new flavor for Micellean MRP, but I s'pose I can't control that.
    If sense were common, everyone would have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    I am sure Icould "influence" you to talk to the higher ups and get a new flavor for Micellean MRP, but I s'pose I can't control that.
    Yes, you could influence me to do so, and then I could try to influence the higher ups, but both of us have about the same degree of control over the outcome

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    Is it true that training with a lower weight and higher reps would protect the ligaments and help them to adapt?
    I donĀ“t think so. Anyone?

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