Sixteen cups of antelope gelatin

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  1. #1
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    Sixteen cups of antelope gelatin

    In case youre wondering, this journal is titled so simply to make it easy to find.

    My last journal lasted just a couple days, because i really wasnt ready to start one - i hadnt thought out my bulking strategy very well. Thanks to TP for saying as much.

    Anyway, here we go again...

    Diet will be a kinda/sorta/bastardized version of carb cycling, with high carb days on each training day, and a low or no carb day on my off days (depending on how fat i look). As usual, i probably wont be eating much beyond chicken, brown rice, and apples.

    One notable exception is that i'll be using a during-w/o shake, likely ~60g protein and ~150g sugar. I'm thinking something like 60% dex, 30% malto, 10% fructose. I'm really only doing this because of the long duration of these w/o's. I'll probably just have some low GI shit when i get back from the gym, maybe another 20-30g of protein.

    The routine... this is what changed A LOT from a week ago. I had planned on just whinging it in the gym, but was convinced otherwise. So, the first thing that popped up in my search for a better, yet not completely sadistic routine was Lyle's version of periodization. If you're interested, he wrote 3 articles about it for Mind and Muscle, and there's a few threads on it at bodyrecomposition.com (his site).

    So, here's what i'll be doing for 4-6 weeks:

    Scheduled as: Chest/Back/Grip, Hams/Quads/Calves, OFF, Shoulders/Biceps/Triceps/Abs, OFF. Repeat.

    Emphasis will be on Chest, quads, and biceps. Everything else will be at maintenance. This first mesocycle is going to be with strength as the primary goal, probably aiming for 6 weeks.

    Day 1 (A) - Chest emphasis, back/grip maintenance:
    Decline BB press - 5 sets, 1-3 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
    Reverse BB row - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 3/0/1 tempo
    Incline DB press - 4 sets, 1-3 reps, 3-4 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
    Pulldowns - 2 sets, 10-12 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    Flat DB press - 1 set, 12-15 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    CG cable row - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
    Reverse BB wrist curl - 2 sets, 4-6 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
    TOTAL: 17 sets, ~1.5 hours (without supersets)


    Day 2 (B) - Quad emphasis, ham/calf/ab maintenance:
    Squats - 8 sets, 1-3 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 3/0/x tempo
    SLDL - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 3/0/1 tempo
    Leg press - 3 sets, 10-12 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    Lying leg curl - 1 set, 10-12 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    Seated leg curl - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
    Standing calf raise - 3 sets, 6-8 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    Standing calf raise - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
    TOTAL: 19 sets, ~1.75 hours (without supersets)


    Day 3 - OFF


    Day 4 (C) - Bicep emphasis, shoulders/triceps maintenance:
    Barbell curl - 4 sets, 1-4 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 2/0/x tempo
    Seated BB mil press - 3 sets, 4-6 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 4/0/1 tempo
    Cam bar preacher curls - 2 sets, 1-4 reps, 4-5 minute rest, 2/0/x tempo
    Hammer machine mil press - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
    Cable curl - 1 set, 10-15 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    Decline CG bb press - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    Pushdowns - 1 set, timed: 60-120s, 1 minute rest, 2/0/2 tempo
    Decline situps - 2 sets, 4-6 reps, 2-3 minute rest, 4/0/1 tempo
    Cable crunch - 2 sets, 6-8 reps, 1-2 minute rest, 3/0/2 tempo
    TOTAL: 18 sets, ~1.5 hours (without supersets)


    Day 5 - OFF
    Last edited by Monolith; 09-25-2004 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #2
    happy sumo
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    Interesting. What exactly constitutes 'gelatin'?
    P-side Inc.

    "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

  3. #3
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    My stats...

    20, male, guesstimated bodyfat is around 15%. This will be my first ever intelligent consumption of excess calories. Mmm, how i will miss you, Detour.

    Measurements for 9/20:
    Stomach - 38"
    Right arm - 16"
    Left arm - 16"
    Right quad - 25"
    Left quad - 25"
    Neck - 15.75"
    BW - 219.5lbs

    Those are somewhat rough, i was in a hurry when i took them last monday. I'll be taking stats every saturday morning (missed todays). I'll be trying to get pics of myself, too... although thankfully i wont subject any readers to that grotesque imagery.
    Last edited by Monolith; 09-25-2004 at 02:05 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Interesting. What exactly constitutes 'gelatin'?

  5. #5
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    The supplements/drugs...

    Multi vit, extra calcium, extra magnesium, extra vit C, extra B complex.
    300mg bupropion (wellbutrin) ED
    150mg venlafaxine (effexor) ED
    20-30mg adderall 3x day
    50-60mg dextromethorphan (DXM) 1x night (not dosed concurrently with adderall; on an opposite day/night schedule)

    May be adding selegiline (deprenyl) in at 5mg ED, but "deprenyl mk II" (rasagiline) is supposed to finally get FDA approved at the end of this year, so i might just wait for that.

    May be adding in memantine (namenda) in at 10mg ED as replacement for DXM.

  6. #6
    happy sumo
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    Whats the reason for DXM? Sleep?
    P-side Inc.

    "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

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    Training for 9/25: Day A

    Decline BB press -
    245lbx3
    245lbx3
    245lbx3
    245lbx3
    245lbx3

    Reverse BB row -
    170lbx8
    170lbx8

    Incline DB press -
    80lbx3
    80lbx4
    80lbx3
    80lbx3

    WG pulldowns -
    150lbx12
    150lbx10

    Flat DB press -
    60lbx11

    CG cable row -
    100lbx70s (s=seconds, timed set)

    ---

    I'm not going to repeat the specific RI's and tempo's used for each exercise, but if anyone's interested, it should be pretty easy to correlate with the info i posted up above.

    This was my second "A" day, and the first one that was done correctly. However, even with the kind of crappy one i did 5 days ago, strength was greatly improved. Even back strength, which was supposedly only at maintenance levels, got stronger. Reverse rows with 165 for 8 and 7, this week it went 170 for 8 and 8.

    So yeah, thus far, im liking this.

  8. #8
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    From your recently abandoned journal:

    deprenyl or other MAOI's are going to be a fallback, since they seem to work well on atypical depression.
    Selegiline in non MAO-B selective doses along with a PEA source (Chocamine, for example) works quite well for me; a selegeline transdermal is currently being pushed through the FDA pipeline.

    Find that people who are atypically depressed are generally incapable of finding any middle ground in perception and action: hyper, then totally burnt out/up, down/manic, suicidal/ back and forth. Then you get the often debilitating psychosomatic symptoms.

    Has been the way for me since I was a kid - plagued with migraines (when younger at least), severely phobic (had to have rail guards on the bed because I was afraid of falling out), obsessive, and so on.

    Cognitive behavioral therapy can work quite well. When you're active, you have to prevent yourself from getting so carried away that you get burnt out. Stop yourself from getting too far ahead of yourself when you're energetic and active, and you'll reduce the severity of the downs. I was born a sprinter, not an endurance athlete, apparently.

    So when you're feeling great, that's when you have to be mindful of your surroundings and internal process.

    Something to consider. If you're like me, then you'll also find alcohol to be pure poison, in any amount. I avoid it, because even a few drinks is enough to severely depress my system with a carry-over effect pouring into the next day; even if I don't get drunk, my system is trashed nevertheless.


    I remember there was a thread at avant on preventing amphetamine sensitization, but (like most things) i havent had the time to go find it. IIRC there were some good ideas in there that might prolong my love affair with adderall.
    NMDA receptor antagonists. But as several people pointed out, you'll also reduce the subjective effects of focus and energy. So there's a trade-off.

    Dep, PEA and nicotine keeps it going for me. Along with a stoic oulook on life - though, that's my approach, and I can't tell someone to "be stoic!"
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Whats the reason for DXM? Sleep?
    Trying to stave off tolerance to the adderall. Initially at ~25mg, mood elevation was extreme... bordering on euphoria. Incredibly happy outlook, motivated, energetic, outgoing, and unbothered by things that would normally make me anxious. These effects have slowly worn away over the past month or two. It's originally intended purpose - treating my ADD - has not had the same tolerance build.

    I'd love to find a way to retain some of the mood-altering effects of the amphetamine without increasing the dose to neurotoxic and generally problematic levels. In theory DXM should help... and its had a few good anecdotal reports, but it's not quite as "clean" as something like memantine. I won't get into it, but the way memantine antagonizes the receptor in question "jives" a lot better with amphetamine use than something like DXM.

    Besides, this cough syrup tastes like shit.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    From your recently abandoned journal:

    Selegiline in non MAO-B selective doses along with a PEA source (Chocamine, for example) works quite well for me; a selegeline transdermal is currently being pushed through the FDA pipeline.

    Find that people who are atypically depressed are generally incapable of finding any middle ground in perception and action: hyper, then totally burnt out/up, down/manic, suicidal/ back and forth. Then you get the often debilitating psychosomatic symptoms.

    Has been the way for me since I was a kid - plagued with migraines (when younger at least), severely phobic (had to have rail guards on the bed because I was afraid of falling out), obsessive, and so on.

    Cognitive behavioral therapy can work quite well. When you're active, you have to prevent yourself from getting so carried away that you get burnt out. Stop yourself from getting too far ahead of yourself when you're energetic and active, and you'll reduce the severity of the downs. I was born a sprinter, not an endurance athlete, apparently.

    So when you're feeling great, that's when you have to be mindful of your surroundings and internal process.

    Something to consider. If you're like me, then you'll also find alcohol to be pure poison, in any amount. I avoid it, because even a few drinks is enough to severely depress my system with a carry-over effect pouring into the next day; even if I don't get drunk, my system is trashed nevertheless.




    NMDA receptor antagonists. But as several people pointed out, you'll also reduce the subjective effects of focus and energy. So there's a trade-off.

    Dep, PEA and nicotine keeps it going for me. Along with a stoic oulook on life - though, that's my approach, and I can't tell someone to "be stoic!"
    Interesting to hear some feedback on the dep + PEA. How does it affect your mood? I mean, is it on par with a good anti-depressent, or is it along the lines of amphetamine? I'm curious, since i think it was in Novicks deprenyl article that he likened PEA to an endogenous amphetamine.

    Weird that the FDA is pushing through a selegiline patch, too. Is deprenyl becoming popular again? And any idea what the reasoning is for transdermal delivery?

    Your description of atypical depression jives with my own symptoms, too. This shit sucks. The advice on the highs and lows is something i really hadnt thought about previously... but it certainly applies. In fact, my recent high resulted in a rather heavy courseload. I've had my fingers crossed that my current love-of-life affliction lasts the entire semester.

    I don't drink too often, but ive never noticed any excessively bad moods post-binge. In fact, my hangovers are usually pretty mild. That reminds me, actually - ever try megadosing sesathin during/after drinking? There was some article/blurb on sesamin i think i posted over at Lyle's board regarding some interesting anti-hangover effects.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith
    Interesting to hear some feedback on the dep + PEA. How does it affect your mood? I mean, is it on par with a good anti-depressent, or is it along the lines of amphetamine? I'm curious, since i think it was in Novicks deprenyl article that he likened PEA to an endogenous amphetamine.
    What do you mean by "good antidepressant." Few things positively and noticeabley affect me. I like Dep and PEA because it's strong enough to make a difference, but mild enough so as not to elicit negative reactions (I avoid amphetamines and such, because I wouldn't be able to control myself - a recent experience with meth reminded me of that).

    PEA isn't orally available without an MAO-B inhibitor.

    As far as mood, I'm simply more balanced. But I have other personality quirks that I don't want to get into, so what works for me, and what I experience, isn't necessarily going to be the case for others even if general symptoms are shared.

    Weird that the FDA is pushing through a selegiline patch, too. Is deprenyl becoming popular again? And any idea what the reasoning is for transdermal delivery?
    Dep has been studied for atypical and major depression - there's renewed interest in MAOI's (selegline, maclobemide) that don't carry the risks associated with the classic inhibitors; with transdermal delivery you avoid the potential for tyramine reactions with non-selective doses.

    The advice on the highs and lows is something i really hadnt thought about previously... but it certainly applies. In fact, my recent high resulted in a rather heavy courseload
    Exactly. I learned to control myself during my highs so I wouldn't put myself at risk. I'd take on so much, read through so many books (etc), then later put myself in a position where I was incapable of doing anything.

    I rely on meditation (far beyond mere relaxation techniques) to keep everything moving, without letting myself get out of hand; I accomplish far more when I spent my time meditating, instead of researching drugs. If you know what you're doing, you can teach yourself to induce trips and trances, among other things. Your body is a pharmacy, and your brain is in charge of the prescriptions.

    That reminds me, actually - ever try megadosing sesathin during/after drinking?
    No. Because I rarely drink - alcohol isn't a feel-good drug for me. Since I no longer work for Avant, I rarely spend my time looking into supplements and strategies. I'm out of the loop.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

  12. #12
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    Also:

    Have you ever read The Discources of Epictetus, and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius?

    As with the Bible, merely reading the books won't do you any good if you're a saint on Sunday and a forgetful sinner the following week. Whenever you're high or low, read through them and apply the thoughts to yours, then yours to theirs - see if there's a constrast between what you 'know' and what you're doing. Stoic philosophy was the ancients' cognitive therapy. So it's not something to simply read and discuss, like the Christians who talk to talk about the good book and spend their time drinking and fucking like infidels. An active approach to well-being doesn't end when you leave the psych's office, or shut the medicine cabinet.

    It's a constant process. Years ago when I was twenty (I'm 27, now), stoic philosophy made a great impact on me: how I perceived, acted. But, it's something that has to be continually applied and renewed; emotions, reactions and thoughts have to be repeatedly stripped down before they spin you in circles. When I run on autopilot, and act as if I "know" what I need to know, I soon forget, confusing knowing with believing, ending up where I began.

    So, take the time when you have it to sit down and analzye your thoughts; stoicism is merely a useful tool to help you reduce and reintegrate them - it doesn't give you the answers, it allows you to soundly arrive at your own.
    Last edited by Dante B.; 09-25-2004 at 03:42 PM.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

  13. #13
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    Hey monolith, what does a 3/0/2 tempo mean?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    What do you mean by "good antidepressant." Few things positively and noticeabley affect me. I like Dep and PEA because it's strong enough to make a difference, but mild enough so as not to elicit negative reactions (I avoid amphetamines and such, because I wouldn't be able to control myself - a recent experience with meth reminded me of that).

    PEA isn't orally available without an MAO-B inhibitor.

    As far as mood, I'm simply more balanced. But I have other personality quirks that I don't want to get into, so what works for me, and what I experience, isn't necessarily going to be the case for others even if general symptoms are shared.
    Interesting... i might give the PEA a try at some point. At this point, id like to continue this orgasmic relationship with amphetamines as long as i can. I hear you on the control issues, though... i'm forcing myself not to increase the dose beyond a certain point, regardless of any effects i could ellicit. Something thats helped me control the urge is reading up on literature concerning the neurotoxic effects of high dose amphetamines (especially meth)... it'll definitely make you think twice before ingesting too many happy pills. In fact, that's the very reason i'm interested in hopping on some low dose deprenyl - just for its neuroprotective properties.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Dep has been studied for atypical and major depression - there's renewed interest in MAOI's (selegline, maclobemide) that don't carry the risks associated with the classic inhibitors; with transdermal delivery you avoid the potential for tyramine reactions with non-selective doses.
    Ah ha! I didn't connect the dots. Well, that'd be friggin awesome... i wonder how much dep the patch can provide? I wonder if they can do depo shots with it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Exactly. I learned to control myself during my highs so I wouldn't put myself at risk. I'd take on so much, read through so many books (etc), then later put myself in a position where I was incapable of doing anything.

    I rely on meditation (far beyond mere relaxation techniques) to keep everything moving, without letting myself get out of hand; I accomplish far more when I spent my time meditating, instead of researching drugs. If you know what you're doing, you can teach yourself to induce trips and trances, among other things. Your body is a pharmacy, and your brain is in charge of the prescriptions.
    Well thats just fucking cool. See, i've always been really, really good at controlling my emotions when im in a deep depression. I suppose ive just had a lot of practice. These amphetamine potentiated highs im getting now, though, are a whole new animal. I'm much more "in the moment" and could care less about philosophical what-ifs that would normally plague every waking moment. It's almost going from a third party witness to humanity, to actually becoming a part of it. I suppose that could be both good and bad.

    Anyway, re: the meditation... recommend any books? Ive often thought about how great it'd be if we could have conscious control over our bodies various control mechanisms, but you're making it sound like a reality. To be honest, i've always thought of meditation as glorified daydreaming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    No. Because I rarely drink - alcohol isn't a feel-good drug for me. Since I no longer work for Avant, I rarely spend my time looking into supplements and strategies. I'm out of the loop.
    Just ask Jodi for a swig of her bottled man-juice.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Also:

    Have you ever read The Discources of Epictetus, and the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius?

    As with the Bible, merely reading the books won't do you any good if you're a saint on Sunday and a forgetful sinner the following week. Whenever you're high or low, read through them and apply the thoughts to yours, then yours to theirs - see if there's a constrast between what you 'know' and what you're doing. Stoic philosophy was the ancients' cognitive therapy. So it's not something to simply read and discuss, like the Christians who talk to talk about the good book and spend their time drinking and fucking like infidels. An active approach to well-being doesn't end when you leave the psych's office, or shut the medicine cabinet.

    It's a constant process. Years ago when I was twenty (I'm 27, now), stoic philosophy made a great impact on me: how I perceived, acted. But, it's something that has to be continually applied and renewed; emotions, reactions and thoughts have to be repeatedly stripped down before they spin you in circles. When I run on autopilot, and act as if I "know" what I need to know, I soon forget, confusing knowing with believing, ending up where I began.

    So, take the time when you have it to sit down and analzye your thoughts; stoicism is merely a useful tool to help you reduce and reintegrate them - it doesn't give you the answers, it allows you to soundly arrive at your own.
    I've read Epictetus, but not Meditations. I've actually aquired quite a stack of books i want to read (shit, ive never even read most of Plato), but there never seems to be enough time (whether im actually running short of time, or just mentally out of time). I think ive got Meditations stashed away somewhere.

    I enjoyed Epictetus immensely. In fact, i enjoy stoicism in general. It seems like a giant evolutionary leap forward for humanity - breaking those final bonds with our primal, instinct driven anscestors. But in practice, it seems like its just another false prophet. I mean, you would have to live in isolation for the duration of your life to really enjoy that philosophy... since there really arent many people out there interested in or willing to shelve their emotional side. It's too hard, and they can't understand why anyone would want to to begin with. I mean, each one of those brief relapses into an emotional existence is really, really fucking painful. It seems like ive been saying this a lot lately, but it seems as though humanity just hasnt reached the cognitive ability to do much more than reproduce, yet. The few people who seem to have some take on an alternate plane of consciousness are either crazy or were somehow traumatized emotionally/physically/psychologically to the point where it bumped them out of that primal, emotional response to life. Hence, its just a bunch of us crackheads running around pissed off at the world for not being smart enough to see the world through the shattered glass like we do.

    rofl, good luck interpreting that rant, btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie's left nu
    Hey monolith, what does a 3/0/2 tempo mean?
    On the eccentric portion of a lift (e.g. when lowering the bar to your chest on a bench press), you lower with a "count" of 3. The 0 marks the length of the pause at the bottom of that eccentric motion. The 2 marks the speed of the concentric portion (pushing the bar from your chest).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith
    On the eccentric portion of a lift (e.g. when lowering the bar to your chest on a bench press), you lower with a "count" of 3. The 0 marks the length of the pause at the bottom of that eccentric motion. The 2 marks the speed of the concentric portion (pushing the bar from your chest).
    yeah, i knew it was something like that. thx

    Pretty detailed stuff. Are you trying to gain mass and lower bf% at the same time?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie's left nu
    yeah, i knew it was something like that. thx

    Pretty detailed stuff. Are you trying to gain mass and lower bf% at the same time?
    Just gain some mass/strength. I've been cutting for a long time, i think i can afford a month off.

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    true enough. cutting sucks.

    Cool. Good luck.

  20. #20
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    i wonder how much dep the patch can provide?.
    Haven't seen; haven't looked either.




    Well thats just fucking cool. See, i've always been really, really good at controlling my emotions when im in a deep depression. I suppose ive just had a lot of practice. These amphetamine potentiated highs im getting now, though, are a whole new animal. I'm much more "in the moment" and could care less about philosophical what-ifs that would normally plague every waking moment. It's almost going from a third party witness to humanity, to actually becoming a part of it. I suppose that could be both good and bad.
    It's not a matter of controlling emotions - rather, reviewing thought content and circumstances. It's easy to control your emotions when you're too tired or depressed to do anything. When you're on amphetamines, or when you have a manic upswing, then you have an accurate test of your knowledge and skills.

    That's not an insult - just have to keep things in perspective. When I observe people on drugs, I often think that those who appear wise and sane aren't so out of design and willpower, but only chance. Give a shy person enough coke, a person who's normally perceived as being respectful and kind, and you'll see that he wasn't the creator of his default state. It was an accident, a reaction - but not a creation. So he has no control when the chemicals shift in another direction. A person who smokes enough weed suddenly enjoys American Idol. Normally they wouldn't, but it certainly wasn't because of a deep understand of what is and isn't meaningful to them as an individual and as an actor who's conscious of the moment.

    But on grass, everything is interesting and worthy of attention! For most.

    It isn't an either/or - sitting down pondering absurdities that aren't of relevance to who you are and what you want isn't philosophical thought; it's a disease. Just as acting "in the moment" doesn't have to be a blind state of acting that's divorced from an understanding of intentions and outcomes.

    But it certainly takes time and practice to know and experience that balance. When people (speaking in general) complain of "thinking too much," I translate that as: "spend too much time dwelling on irrelevant bullshit."

    When I'm talking about taking the time to think, I'm not talking about dwelling on bullshit. And everything is bullshit if you can't make use of it, and if it doesn't hold the prospect of making you better for pondering it.


    I'm not preaching to you or attacking you - I have the same problem. But you can't correct yourself if you haven't a clue what the answer is, and where you're going wrong.

    Anyway, re: the meditation... recommend any books? Ive often thought about how great it'd be if we could have conscious control over our bodies various control mechanisms, but you're making it sound like a reality. To be honest, i've always thought of meditation as glorified daydreaming.
    No. I don't believe in reading books when it comes to meditation, beyond the basics which you likely can find on the 'net (breathing techniques, so on). Then you have to take it from there, on your own. It certainly is daydreaming for most - what would you expect, a person who's a fool in thought to be wise in practice and action? Interpreting a rich experience for what it is, even if they're a fool? As it happens with the typical acidhead - they claim to have learned, but have nothing to show for it; the problem wasn't the experience, it was the interpreter. So I avoid all of those books, for that reason. I figured it out on my own.

    In general, just think of this:

    When you're high, or in a good mood, can you feel the areas of your brain (even if not in region-specific detail) that are active or suppressed? And contrast that to what you're feeling when you're anxious or miserable?

    Remember those patterns - just as the thoughts of something that pleases you (a loved one, a song, going to a favorite hang out spot in an hour) evokes a noticeable and distinct reaction and image. When you're meditating, recall those patterns, the different regions that were active or suppressed in a moment that you can recall. If you can't recall any specific moments, then the next time you're incredibly anxious, depressed, or, excited, take note of what you're feeling and where - as you would with a headache (e.g. "I feel pressure up front," "there's a sharp pain in the middle.")

    Then, when your thoughts shift (something that takes you from miserable to elated, or elated to depressed), feel what's going on in your head; feel, I didn't say think about it. As you would change what you're thinking about (e.g. "I shouldn't let this get to me, in two hours I'm going to hang out with Bob and I won't be worrying about this nonsense')," learn to do the same with the patterns.

    In certain states, you can actively manipulate different regions of the brain; transcendental meditation is very real, although the reasons, purposes and experiences told by others is most definitely often sheer nonsense. Certain areas of the brain have been identified with out-of-body experiences and the like; it doesn't come to follow that a person's experience isn't real, just because they attribute it to "universal consciousness," the hand of God, or trans-dimensional peregrinations.

    I enjoyed Epictetus immensely. In fact, i enjoy stoicism in general. It seems like a giant evolutionary leap forward for humanity - breaking those final bonds with our primal, instinct driven anscestors. But in practice, it seems like its just another false prophet. I mean, you would have to live in isolation for the duration of your life to really enjoy that philosophy...
    Who told you to be a stoic? It's not an end, or a goal. What, you think that stoicism only serves a purpose if you wish to transform yourself into fucking Spock? Live long and prosper.

    It's something for yourself, to do what you will with it, regardless of what other people do or don't understand. It shouldn't be used to deaden your emotions. Rather, when you're excited or depressed, then you know if you're suffering or experiencing joy for the wrong reasons. It's to clarify perceptions and reactions, not eliminate them.

    Instead of being "happy," "anxious," "sad," and whatever else. Why? Who knows, not even you. Then you have no control over the experience, the perception, or the ability to transform a negative experience (or situation) into something else, or the capacity to sustain a positive high. You're simply taken back and forth with circumstances that you don't understand and can't control - you just react. Why? Who knows, not even you. That's where stoicism plays a role; that's why cognitive behavior therapy (when properly taught) is so beneficial in many disorders as a stand-alone or adjunct - but, it has to be an ongoing process, and enjoying the process of thinking and perceiving shouldn't be viewed as burdensome homework. You learn to enjoy it, because you view it as a necessity that allows you to appreciate the thing you truly enjoy - knowing why you enjoy them - being able to avoid what isn't beneficial, without suffering for it.

    Easier said than done, of course; but there has to be an understanding of what's going to be done and why before you can do anything purposefully.

    And I understood your rant Trust me, if I went off, I could outrant you any day. I'm not sure if that's something I should be bragging about.

    Hopefully I'm not hijacking your journal - started off with the intent to drop some basic observations, and leave.
    Last edited by Dante B.; 09-25-2004 at 05:43 PM.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    It's not a matter of controlling emotions - rather, reviewing thought content and circumstances. It's easy to control your emotions when you're too tired to do anything. When you're on amphetamines, or when you have a manic upswing, then you have an accurate test of your skills.

    That's not an insult - just have to keep things in perspective. When I observe people on drugs, I often think that those who appear wise and sane aren't so out of design and willpower, but only by chance. Give a shy person enough coke, a person who's normally perceived as being respectful and kind, and you'll see that he wasn't the creator of his default state. It was an accident, a reaction - but not a creation. So he has no control when the chemicals shift in another direction.

    It isn't an either/or - sitting down pondering absurdities that aren't of relevance to who you are and what you want isn't philosophical thought; it's a disease. Just as acting "in the moment" doesn't have to be a blind state of acting that's divorced from an understanding of intentions and outcomes.

    But it certainly takes time and practice to know and experience that balance. When people (speaking in general) complain of "thinking too much," I translate that as: "spend too much time dwelling on irrelevant bullshit."

    When I'm talking about taking the time to think, I'm not talking about dwelling on bullshit. And everything is bullshit if you can't make use of it, and if it doesn't hold the prospect of making you better for pondering it.
    So, whats the purpose of striving for that balance? I mean, what has made you decide that it's the best choice? How did you decide what type of thinking makes you a better person? Does it just make the most sense to you? Does it fit best with your lifestyle/the people around you?

    In other words, how do you determine whats irrelevant bullshit and what isnt?




    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    No. I don't believe in reading books when it comes to meditation, beyond the basics which you likely can find on the 'net (breathing techniques, so on). Then you have to take it from there, on your own. It certainly is daydreaming for most - what would you expect, a person who's a fool in thought to be wise in practice and action? Interpreting a rich experience for what it is, even if they're a fool? As it happens with the typical acidhead - they claim to have learned, but have nothing to show for it; the problem wasn't the experience, it was the interpreter. So I avoid all of those books, for that reason. I figured it out on my own.

    In general, just think of this:

    When you're high, or in a good mood, can you feel the areas of your brain (even if not in region-specific detail) that are active or suppressed? And contrast that to what you're feeling when you're anxious or miserable?

    Remember those patterns - just as the thoughts of something that pleases you (a loved one, a song, going to a favorite hang out spot in an hour) evokes a noticeable and distinct reaction and image. When you're meditating, recall those patterns, the different regions that were active or suppressed in a moment that you can recall. If you can't recall any specific moments, then the next time you're incredibly anxious, depressed, or, excited, take note of what you're feeling and where - as you would with a headache (e.g. "I feel pressure up front," "there's a sharp pain in the middle.")

    Then, when your thoughts shift (something that takes you from miserable to elated, or elated to depressed), feel what's going on in your head; feel, I didn't say think about it. As you would change what you're thinking about (e.g. "I shouldn't let this get to me, in two hours I'm going to hang out with Bob and I won't be worrying about this nonsense')," learn to do the same with the patterns.

    In certain states, you can actively manipulate different regions of the brain; transcendental meditation is very real, although the reasons, purposes and experiences told by others is most definitely often sheer nonsense (certain areas of the brain have been identified with out-of-body experiences and the like - it doesn't come to follow that a person's experience isn't real, just because they attribute it to "universal consciousness," the hand of God, or inter-dimensional peregrinations).
    Whoa.

    I'm not sure if i've got the mental discipline to approach something like that... but i'll certainly try to be more aware about relating the physical brain to my emotional states. How far have you been able to take this? Do you have to be meditating, or can you use these exercises in response to daily problems?

    It almost sounds like the temptation to make your meditative discoveries into something more than they are is akin to the temptation to abuse amphetamine.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Who told you to be a stoic? It's not an end, or a goal. What, you think that stoicism only serves a purpose if you wish to transform yourself into fucking Spock?

    It's something for yourself, to do what you will with it, regardless of what other people do or don't understand. It shouldn't be used to deaden your emotions. Rather, when you're excited or depressed, then you know if you're suffering or experiencing joy for the wrong reasons. It's to clarify perceptions and reactions, not eliminate them.

    Instead of being "happy," "anxious," "sad," and whatever else. Why? Who knows, not even you. Then you have no control over the experience, the perception, or the ability to transform a negative experience (or situation) into something else, or the capacity to sustain a positive high. You're simply taken back and forth with circumstances that you don't understand and can't control - you just react. Why? Who knows, not even you. That's where stoicism plays a role.

    And I understood your rant Trust me, if I went off, I could outrant you any day. I'm not sure if that's something I should be bragging about.

    Hopefully I'm not hijacking your journal - started off with the intent to drop some basic observations, and leave.
    Eh... i think i see what you're saying. So the idea is more to gather an understanding of how emotions work, and why they work... not so much a way to live?

    And fuck no, im enjoying this a lot... much more interesting than reading a list of how many sets of calf raises i did.

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    So, whats the purpose of striving for that balance? I mean, what has made you decide that it's the best choice? How did you decide what type of thinking makes you a better person? Does it just make the most sense to you? Does it fit best with your lifestyle/the people around you?
    Let's restate this:

    Would a psychiatrist prescribe thorazine to a person who was temporarily down after the loss of a job?

    Simple put:

    If you're happy with who you are, what you're doing, and what's happening at the moment, why fix what isn't broken. Even if I don't agree with that person's life or conception of good living, if they're happy, then that's all they need to know.

    If you're "living for the moment," constantly burning yourself out and dealing with consequences that you can't handle and didn't expect, do you have a problem?

    If you spend so much time thinking and worrying about this or that, but never experiencing the moments you wish you live, is there a problem?

    If so, in either case, what should you do?

    In other words, how do you determine whats irrelevant bullshit and what isnt?
    I'm speaking in relative terms, not absolute, if that wasn't clear: if you're not happy, and if something isn't making you better off, is it good - for you?

    Will it do you any good to read a thousand more books if you haven't made use of - applied - the material you've already read for your betterment? Material that you deemed worthy of your attention and time?

    That goes for thinking, and anything in general. Even if something is good for you, you have to know why - in action and belief - not just in words, if you're going to make use of it.


    I'm not sure if i've got the mental discipline to approach something like that... but i'll certainly try to be more aware about relating the physical brain to my emotional states.
    You only need to go as far as necessary to achieve the desired results. A person who's happy in general, but a little stressed, is better off with simple relaxation techniques. They have no reason to go deeper, just as a person who's slightly depressed isn't in need of lithium.

    How far have you been able to take this?
    Trips and trances. But it's difficult. I don't practice such things just because I can. And I don't have any practical reason to go that deep, very often.

    Do you have to be meditating, or can you use these exercises in response to daily problems?
    Great! I'm glad you figured that out - relevance. What you learn through meditation is to be applied to what you're perceiving and experiencing daily. Unlike the acidheads who speak of their "wonderful and enlightening trips," acting and suffering like the fools they are when they're not tripping. What's learned is what's applied. Knowledge without an application isn't knowledge.

    On a day to day basis, the overall goal is to avoid being overwhelmed by things that shouldn't get to you - to identity problems as they occur, without being paralyzed with anxiety. Simply, to experience and control a moment without losing focus of intentions and outcomes.

    How far you have to go into the process is determined by the severity of your problems.

    It almost sounds like the temptation to make your meditative discoveries into something more than they are is akin to the temptation to abuse amphetamine.
    Definitely. Which is rather unfortunate.

    I spoke of meditation in general, as a technique, as with cognitive therapy. There's no reason to go too far into something if you're generally happy with what you have now; anything more would be masturbation, or useless, like the fucking acidheads and their trips, or the melding with the universal consciousnesss balderdash.

    Trip after trip, experience after experience, but what to show for it?

    The statement in essence is:

    You do have some control over your life and experiences - perceptions and reactions. Certain techniques allow you to realize that potential and meaningfully apply it.

    I'm certainly not telling you to avoid prescription drugs and psychiatrists. I want that to be clear. I despise the "pychiatry is a bunch of bullshit" movement. But, there are things you can do on your own, as an adjunct to treatment.


    Eh... i think i see what you're saying. So the idea is more to gather an understanding of how emotions work, and why they work... not so much a way to live?
    Yes.

    Your emotions, though; your life, your goals. Think of stoicism merely as a tool. For what end you're applying those tools is for you to figure out. But a sculptor, whether a creative genius or a fool, won't get far without a chisel.

    If you're not happy with what you've thus far created, then you have to reassess your approach and the contents of your toolbag. You wouldn't do so just for the sake of it.

    And fuck no, im enjoying this a lot... much more interesting than reading a list of how many sets of calf raises i did.
    So long as I'm not messing up your journal. As I said, I'm not preaching. I generally don't even like to discuss any of this, beyond the basics (recommending cognitive therapy, etc).

    My approach has nothing to do with: Man, this is so far out! Check it out dude!!!

    Do what's necessary, and only what's necessary in relation to your goals and circumstances. You wouldn't give your friend a hit of acid if he simply wanted to cool down with a beer after a hard day of work.
    Last edited by Dante B.; 09-25-2004 at 07:13 PM.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

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    Trips and trances. But it's difficult. I don't practice such things just because I can. And I don't have any practical reason to go that deep, very often.
    I should add that my direct purpose isn't to achieve these states - rather, it's an indirect method where I learned to combat suicidal ideation, severe panic attacks, and other debilitating psychological states; situations where I can't afford to spent too much time in the hole. My body and mind have been shot to shit over the past months, I've lost 50 fucking pounds because of it - muscle, not fat - so obviously I've been forced to take a more intensive approach again.

    So, your practice and approach runs only as deep as the sanity you're endeavoring to retrieve or sustain. Efficiency is the ultimate goal.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

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    Damn, it's good to see you posting at IM again Dante.... And like I said in the past Mono, you are much more articulate then many people here realize.

    "I took my dog Brownie for a walk. He pooped on my neighbor's lawn" has so much more meaning now .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Let's restate this:

    Would a psychiatrist prescribe thorazine to a person who was temporarily down after the loss of a job?

    Simple put:

    If you're happy with who you are, what you're doing, and what's happening at the moment, why fix what isn't broken. Even if I don't agree with that person's life or conception of good living, if they're happy, then that's all they need to know.

    If you're "living for the moment," constantly burning yourself out and dealing with consequences that you can't handle and didn't expect, do you have a problem?

    If you spend so much time thinking and worrying about this or that, but never experiencing the moments you wish you live, is there a problem?

    If so, in either case, what should you do?
    How do you determine how best to make yourself happy, though? I mean, when im in one of my darker phases, i can be perfectly content to just sit and contemplate life for hours. In a lighter phase, itd make me much happier to be out socializing or somehow challenging my mind/body. I mean, in that kind of case, which way do you turn? How do you determine the "true" baseline for which to try and center your emotional spectrum?




    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    That goes for thinking, and anything in general. Even if something is good for you, you have to know why - in action and belief - not just in words, if you're going to make use of it.
    Well put. It's a lot easier to just ingest and store as much information as you can than to methodically examine what it is that's holding your attention, why it's doing so, and what relevance it has to your life. I wonder why that is? Ego?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    You only need to go as far as necessary to achieve the desired results. A person who's happy in general, but a little stressed, is better off with simple relaxation techniques. They have no reason to go deeper, just as a person who's slightly depressed isn't in need of lithium.
    How far do you think you can go? And isnt the temptation to find out almost overwhelming? I mean, being able to invoke a trance isn't exactly a common ability. It's an exploration of the mind-brain connection that few people can take... i can see how it's similar to self-medicating, but at the same time, it's a much more therapeutic and introspective method than tossing someone a bottle of lithium. I can't see how you could possibly be satisfied with only reaching a certain level of "depth," while the possibility of an infinite number of unexplored levels remains. Maybe i just have to try it to understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Great! I'm glad you figured that out - relevance. What you learn through meditation is to be applied to what you're perceiving and experiencing daily. Unlike the acidheads who speak of their "wonderful and enlightening trips," acting and suffering like the fools they are when they're not tripping. What's learned is what's applied. Knowledge without an application isn't knowledge.

    On a day to day basis, the overall goal is to avoid being overwhelmed by things that shouldn't get to you - to identity problems as they occur, without being paralyzed with anxiety. Simply, to experience and control a moment without losing focus of intentions and outcomes.

    How far you have to go into the process is determined by the severity of your problems.
    This is probably going to be a little hard to explain, but how does a trance you experienced 2 days ago help with anxiety in the present? Is it just through a better understanding of how your brain reacts to a situation? The methodology behind the madness?



    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Definitely. Which is rather unfortunate.

    I spoke of meditation in general, as a technique, as with cognitive therapy. There's no reason to go too far into something if you're generally happy with what you have now; anything more would be masturbation, or useless, like the fucking acidheads and their trips, or the melding with the universal consciousnesss balderdash.

    Trip after trip, but what to show for it?

    The statement in essence is:

    You do have some control over your life and experiences - perceptions and reactions. Certain techniques allow you to realize that potential and meaningfully apply it.

    I'm certainly not telling you to avoid prescription drugs and psychiatrists. I want that to be clear. I despise the "pychiatry is a bunch of bullshit" movement. But, there are things you can do on your own, as an adjunct to treatment.
    So, in other words, a trip on acid is worthless because there was no effort spent trying to attain it? No pre-trip ideal that what theyre going to experience is more than just "feeling good"? No discipline to recognize that what they're experiencing is just another less known tangent of their psyche, not some 3 hour visit to heaven?

    I wonder if someone who's managed to get there on their own can then use acid (or any psychoactive drug) to facilitate later meditative needs? Would they then have the understanding and the respect for the experience to interpret it correctly? In a way that benefits their "normal" lives? Or are we too forgetfull, and we need to experience that effort each and every time, else we lose ourselves in the "good feeling" of the moment?




    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    Yes.

    Your emotions, though; your life, your goals. Think of stoicism merely as a tool. For what end you're applying those tools is for you to figure out. But a sculptor, whether a creative genius or a fool, won't get far without a chisel.

    If you're not happy with what you've thus far created, then you have to reassess your approach and the contents of your toolbag. You wouldn't do so just for the sake of it.
    See, that goes back to my original problem: I don't know what makes me happy. I'm sort of wandering around, trying out anything available to me. I've got a bag full of chisels, and ive chipped the block with each one, but i still don't see any art poking out of the stone. I suppose i'm the only one who can "reassess my toolbag," but im just not quite sure how to yet. Lobotomy always seems to pop up in these instances as the best way out.





    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    So long as I'm not messing up your journal. As I said, I'm not preaching. I generally don't even like to discuss any of this, beyond the basics (recommending cognitive therapy, etc).

    My approach has nothing to do with: Man, this is so far out! Check it out dude!!!

    Do what's necessary, and only what's necessary in relation to your goals and circumstances. You wouldn't give your friend a hit of acid if he simply wanted to cool down with a beer after a hard day of work.
    Not at all. I'm gaining far more from a conversation like this than i am a day by day analysis of my hour in the gym. I appreciate you taking the time.

    And while your approach may not have anything to do with how cool this is, that's one of the ways it's striking me right now. Hopefully i can get that under control before i try, lest i become another acidhead with an endogenous supply of drug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante B.
    I should add that my direct purpose isn't to achieve these states - rather, it's an indirect method where I learned to combat suicidal ideation, severe panic attacks, and other debilitating psychological states; situations where I can't afford to spent too much time in the hole. My body and mind have been shot to shit over the past months, I've lost 50 fucking pounds because of it - muscle, not fat - so obviously I've been forced to take a more intensive approach again.

    So, your practice and approach runs only as deep as the sanity you're endeavoring to retrieve or sustain. Efficiency is the ultimate goal.
    Interesting.

    See, i've come extremely close to suicide quite a few times... but at that point, even the idea there was a way to come out of that hole wouldn't have been appealing. I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset. How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one? That you're really not supposed to feel that way? Is it, in a way, like the opposite of a trip? You need to force yourself to realize it's just one extreme of the spectrum, not a new state of reality?

    Too bad you can't will your body into hyperplasia, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyDevil
    Damn, it's good to see you posting at IM again Dante.... And like I said in the past Mono, you are much more articulate then many people here realize.

    "I took my dog Brownie for a walk. He pooped on my neighbor's lawn" has so much more meaning now .
    rofl

    Yeah, the title of this thread IS quite erudite, isnt it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith
    The supplements/drugs...

    Multi vit, extra calcium, extra magnesium, extra vit C, extra B complex.
    300mg bupropion (wellbutrin) ED
    150mg venlafaxine (effexor) ED
    20-30mg adderall 3x day
    50-60mg dextromethorphan (DXM) 1x night (not dosed concurrently with adderall; on an opposite day/night schedule)

    May be adding selegiline (deprenyl) in at 5mg ED, but "deprenyl mk II" (rasagiline) is supposed to finally get FDA approved at the end of this year, so i might just wait for that.

    May be adding in memantine (namenda) in at 10mg ED as replacement for DXM.

    "DXM should not be used (either recreationally or at normal dosage levels) by people who are taking a monoamine oxidase inhibitor..."
    http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/...tml#toc.4.16.1

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    The same applies to amphetamines (Adderal), antidepressants, and MAOI's. Though, with Deprenyl, low doses that are relatively selective for MAO-B may not hold the same effects as a non-selective MAO or non-selective dose.

    Even then, depends on the individual; that is, "10 mgs of selegiline won't interfere with MAO-A" doesn't take the person's specific makeup into account.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

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    How do you determine how best to make yourself happy, though? I can tell someone if I mean, when im in one of my darker phases, i can be perfectly content to just sit and contemplate life for hours. In a lighter phase, itd make me much happier to be out socializing or somehow challenging my mind/body. I mean, in that kind of case, which way do you turn?
    Do you want me to tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing and enjoying? I can't.

    I can only point out the flaws in your own thinking, when you're talking about your vision of happiness.

    If you're content to sit down, sit. If you're happy staying there, stay. If you want to go out and mix it up, do so.

    Once you articulate (at least to yourself) what you desire, and what you're aiming for, then you'll see if your actions are taking you in the right or wrong direction.

    Unless you're going to tell me that you're happy sitting down pondering the meaning of life, even if you're upset that you're single and alone. But what if having friends and a social circle is one of your distant goals?

    What if you're sitting down pondering the meaning of life for weeks on end, forgetting your responsibilities at work?

    If you're happy with what you're doing, in any stage, dealing with the consequences, fine. If you're happy on your ass, but not happy that you're starving, where did you go wrong?



    How do you determine the "true" baseline for which to try and center your emotional spectrum?
    When I'm moving in one direction without subverting my plans. Don't ask what the "direction" or plan is, it's irrelevant to you. But if I want to be clear-minded and free of distraction, am I contradicting myself if everyone distracts and angers me?

    Yes. Then I have to see what I'm reacting to, and if my response is appropriate. I couldn't answer, "Yes, it is appropriate," if it's followed with, "but I've been so upset for the past two weeks, I haven't been able to concentrate on my homework."

    You can't fabricate an outlook on life or a system of belief. Don't confuse me on those terms. All I can point out is the steps to arrive at your own.

    Well put. It's a lot easier to just ingest and store as much information as you can than to methodically examine what it is that's holding your attention, why it's doing so, and what relevance it has to your life. I wonder why that is? Ego?
    How you view yourself and what you expect of yourself is a reflection of how you perceive others and the world around you. How you define intelligence, respect, and other related aspects of personality and worth determines how you act.

    If people define "intelligence" as the human equivalent of an encyclopedia, it won't surprise me if you follow accordingly after tacitly accepting those terms.

    We all act for our own good; few of us know how we've defined "good."

    How far do you think you can go? And isnt the temptation to find out almost overwhelming?
    Not necessarily. Would you drive three hours, for each hit of your favorite drug?

    I do what's necessary.

    All you could attempt to point out is the contradiction, if any, between my actions and expectations.

    "I want to see how far I can go with this drug," followed by, "man, I'd really like to get out of this field and find better work." If this man spends too much time on cloud nine, it isn't likely that he'll be acting upon those goals; there's no relation between what he wants and what he does. Whatever he "does," is irrelevant, if we look at it in the context of what else he desires.

    Even if his actions are beneficial and necessary, it may not be so if we consider the frequency and extent of those actions. One drink is nice if I want to relax, should I go for the entire keg?

    What's necessary is what's needed to achieve a defined end. What you consider the proper end for you as an individual is irrelevant to me; just as my ends are irrelevant to you, or should be.

    But, we can discuss steps.


    I mean, being able to invoke a trance isn't exactly a common ability. It's an exploration of the mind-brain connection that few people can take... i can see how it's similar to self-medicating, but at the same time, it's a much more therapeutic and introspective method than tossing someone a bottle of lithium. I can't see how you could possibly be satisfied with only reaching a certain level of "depth," while the possibility of an infinite number of unexplored levels remains. Maybe i just have to try it to understand.
    I medicate myself with my goals in mind. I wouldn't use, say, LSD, just for the fuck of it - again and again. To see how far I can push it - push what? To where? Without any goal in mind?

    Then you can critize my actions in relation to a goal.



    I'd recognize my current state as the proper one, with no urge to remove myself from that mindset. How do you manage to force yourself into recognizing that suicidal hole as an improper one?
    An improper reaction to a valid perception?

    If you have a valid reason to feel a certain way after given circumstances, does it follow that your subsequent reaction in intensity and duration is proper?

    Unless you're telling me and telling yourself that you're happy living in that hole, and that it serves a purpose. What are you reacting to? What are you thinking and feeling when you're suicidal?

    "This person did that to me." "I wanted this and received something else instead."

    Even if your point is valid, I doubt you'll argue that your response necessarily is.


    That you're really not supposed to feel that way? Is it, in a way, like the opposite of a trip? You need to force yourself to realize it's just one extreme of the spectrum, not a new state of reality?
    Feel that way, according to whom? For what reasons?

    "I'm not supposed to be sad, because the man on the TV is happy with his large house and the white picket fence. I have those things, but I'm not happy."

    Even with:

    "I worked hard to put this project in motion, but everything collapsed and no one recognized the validity and value of my input."

    Perhaps so. Then what will you do? Is there another way around it? If not, another avenue? Did you do everything you could, even in how you presented those ideas?


    Suffering for what? Praise - then whose? Anyone's? "No, only acknowledgment from those I respect." How do you define respect when you're judging if someone's worth of it?

    Anxiety and depression, like physical pain, are sensations. They're useful, because you wouldn't learn to respect fire and take precautions before entering a burning house if you didn't have a prior conception of the sensory consequences.

    If you're burned, using morphine to dull the pain, will it serve a purpose if you haven't learned to stop putting your hand in the stove? Or if you need to, not without a glove?

    It's no different with meditation. It can be used to dull pain, and to learn the source of it; both remedy and prevention.

    I apologize if this is incoherent. I'm having a difficult time relating, because I've never thought in terms of what I'm supposed or not supposed to be feeling. And I'm just out of it mentally. There's a reason why I stayed away from the boards...

    Too bad you can't will your body into hyperplasia, eh?
    Will it? With a magic wand? No.

    Develop and strengthen pathways even when you're not lifting? Yes you can. Basic example:

    Lay down and close your eyes; relax your body. Visualize that you're using your dominant hand to write - as though you were actually moving without actually doing so.

    Do the same with your other hand. Can you sense a difference between your ability to visualize the action with one hand, and the other? Now see how this can be applied to lifting. If you're having a difficult time, try this first.

    There's a reason why top level athletes use visualization as an ingredient in their training regimens; during the action, before it, even in bed. The same applies to those who envision a scenario playing out before they're actually in it - say, a speech or business presentation): how they'll feel, what they'll see, how they've felt in past related circumstances, what happened, etc.

    But, even such techniques will help only so much when they're not integrated into a consistent system of perceiving and acting (which is why what we "know," is rarely what we "believe" - you can't fake belief, and that's why the typical NLP'er, for example, is all technique and no game).


    I'm not talking about magic here. What people consider impossible often has nothing to do with wizards and sorcery. And the few people who do understand the techniques rarely apply them in a coherent and meaningful manner - the 'fake it until you make its.' Can go through the techniques and motions - can't fake your love for the game.
    Last edited by Dante B.; 09-26-2004 at 05:09 PM.
    Not to see many things, not to hear many things, not to permit many things to come close - first imperative of prudence, first proof that one is no mere accident but a necessity.

    Friedrich Nietzsche - Ecce Homo

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