Carbs and fats

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    Carbs and fats






    Is it true you should avoid combining carbs and fats in the one meal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pengers84
    Is it true you should avoid combining carbs and fats in the one meal?
    Load of bollux with no **real** science behind it.

    Yes - lots of saturated fats or trans fats, in combination with lots of HFCS or highly refined carbs can be a bad thing in a diet and can lead to insulin resistance and just general poor health (poor cholesterol, heart disease, fatty liver accumulation, visceral fat storage etc etc) but there is nothing wrong with having an appropriate serving of carbs (combinations of starchy/sugar and fibre) and an appropriate serving of healthy fats in the same meal (combined with protein). This is actually advantagous - it has many benefits for things such as satiety and your blood sugar/blood insulin response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh
    Load of bollux with no **real** science behind it.
    i totally disagree. Berardi is one of the best in the business and an example of someone who promotes p/c and p/f. research and science included.

    TONS of information here http://www.johnberardi.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf
    i totally disagree. Berardi is one of the best in the business and an example of someone who promotes p/c and p/f. research and science included.

    TONS of information here http://www.johnberardi.com/
    Well... Berardi USED to talk about this (in his first 'massive eating' serious the one he put out years ago which is completely stupid in terms of calorie prescriptions)..

    But if you go and take a lot at his more 'recent' stuff (the 'updated' versions) he 'modified' this to "Remember that low GI carbs, and healthy fats are ok" after many 'less than positive comments' from other people in the business.
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    all i can add is what i've seen from my own experience--for months i've been making a point to have some carbs, fats and proteins in every single meal i eat (except PWO), and i'm quite happy with my results thus far on the program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh
    Well... Berardi USED to talk about this (in his first 'massive eating' serious the one he put out years ago which is completely stupid in terms of calorie prescriptions)..

    But if you go and take a lot at his more 'recent' stuff (the 'updated' versions) he 'modified' this to "Remember that low GI carbs, and healthy fats are ok" after many 'less than positive comments' from other people in the business.
    he may have received less than positive feedback from various folk and i haven't read his 'modified' articles but there is still a significant amount of information promoting this method of dieting. i, for one, can say that this is the method i use (edit: that my coach uses with all of his clients. he just so happens to be friends with Berardi) which has resulted in the best results i've seen in my entire life in a significantly shorter period of time.

    different strokes for different folks. p/c/f works well for some people. while p/f and p/c works for others.
    Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory. -G. Behn

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    Quote Originally Posted by garethhe
    all i can add is what i've seen from my own experience--for months i've been making a point to have some carbs, fats and proteins in every single meal i eat (except PWO), and i'm quite happy with my results thus far on the program.


    Except for PWO all the research out suggests that a combination of protein, some carbs (starchy/fruit/vegetable/fibre) and some healthy fats is always beneficial - regardless of whether you are cutting or bulking.
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    The information 'promoting' that method of dieting has no scientific merit - it is all 'testimonial' stuff only (eg: "I did the diet and I got ripped" or "I did the diet and I got HUUUGEEE")...

    But don't get me wrong - I never said the diet doesn't work... Infact, the diet can work... But this is because it is working 'despite the macro seperation' rather than because of it... In reality, anything that provides appropriate calories, sufficient protein, some healthy fats and some fibre and is not completely stupid will work...

    All I am saying there is no real (applicable, reliable, peer-reviewed, scientific) evidence for the suggestions at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh
    Except for PWO all the research out suggests that a combination of protein, some carbs (starchy/fruit/vegetable/fibre) and some healthy fats is always beneficial - regardless of whether you are cutting or bulking.
    'all the research' is very broad. what references are you basing this on?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf
    he may have received less than positive feedback from various folk and i haven't read his 'modified' articles but there is still a significant amount of information promoting this method of dieting. i, for one, can say that this is the method i use (edit: that my coach uses with all of his clients. he just so happens to be friends with Berardi) which has resulted in the best results i've seen in my entire life in a significantly shorter period of time.

    different strokes for different folks. p/c/f works well for some people. while p/f and p/c works for others.

    Have you ever used a p/c/f approach? And if so, was it strict, and planned like the p/c p/f approach your using now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf
    'all the research' is very broad. what references are you basing this on?
    Here is the update of Massive Eating...

    Here is a Food combining Study that showed no difference between the two diets (disociated or balanced).

    There is another one Here where it was shown that three different diets (balanced, food-combining or low-carb) had similar results.

    There is a great article here where they basically conclude that a moderate carb, high to moderate protein, low-ish fat diet (in terms of western diets anyway) is probably optimal in terms of hormonal influences on satiety and hunger.

    And another Here - on appetite control. And a great article on regulation of food intake Here.

    There are also many studies on the short and long term effects of the different macronutrients if you want to look them up - simply go to Pubmed or Highwire and type in any number of searches (eg: protein AND satiety OR macronutrients AND satiety etc) and you will get a stack of papers back.

    eg:
    protein satiety -
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/82/1/41

    Carb and fibre satiety -
    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/2/272S?
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/6/1461?

    Diet composition and dieting -
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/4/901?


    Also - if you want to read a discussion on another board regarding food combining you could try here.
    ~


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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Have you ever used a p/c/f approach? And if so, was it strict, and planned like the p/c p/f approach your using now?

    P.S. my balls are steel
    you're missing my point entirely. that's irrelevant for the purpose of this argument. i'm simply stating that there is no one 'cookie cutter' method of dieting. both methods exist and neither is 'bollox'. there are success stories on both sides so how can one be more 'correct' than the other? that's just as asinine as saying bodypart training is the ONLY option...it's simply not.

    how is it illogical to split up your meals in a way that enables your body to utilize the macronutrients it needs at the times they will be best put to use? your body simply does not need p/c/f all day in each meal. however, it would be naive of me to state eating all three in each meal doesn't work because clearly it does...it's just not the only way. let's be a little open minded here.
    Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory. -G. Behn

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    Don't be so defensive. Actually, according to PreMiers comments I think that was the point he was trying to make - keep an open mind.

    Nice post Emma



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    It's not really a defensive post. I see an open mind. She says cookie cutter doesn't work, there is more than one method of dieting, and people get results from more than one dietary approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf
    i'm simply stating that there is no one 'cookie cutter' method of dieting. both methods exist and neither is 'bollox'.
    This is a true statement.

    there are success stories on both sides so how can one be more 'correct' than the other? that's just as asinine as saying bodypart training is the ONLY option...it's simply not.
    This is a true statement.

    how is it illogical to split up your meals in a way that enables your body to utilize the macronutrients it needs at the times they will be best put to use? your body simply does not need p/c/f all day in each meal. however, it would be naive of me to state eating all three in each meal doesn't work because clearly it does...it's just not the only way. let's be a little open minded here.
    And I guess this is a true statement too.
    Last edited by Thunder; 12-16-2005 at 08:33 AM.

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    This really isn't complicated. Do you have to split of carbs and fats to see progress? Of course not. And it's correct that there's no published data to support it either. Mind you, there's really not any that directly refutes it either. Nor is there any published data that I'm aware of that supports something like say, carb/calorie cycling, yet many, many people find it more beneficial than static dieting. It is but ONE way of setting up a diet. Nothing magical, just a convenient way for some people to eat.

    It's also true that what tends to be most important is calories, adequate protein, adequate EFAs, etc. As someone said, (paraphrasing) anything that meets those qualifications and isn't stupid will work ... up to a point of course.

    I don't think anyone is saying macro splitting is magical. I don't think anyone HAS said that outside of hardcore JB followers back in the day.

    There ARE times during the day when you need and want certain macronutrients and times when these same nutrients are less than ideal, or even simply not really needed - and this really just reflects carb intake. Generally speaking, when consumed around greater periods of activity, nutrients tend to be absorbed and utilized more effectively. Everyone knows about the PWO hooplah, so suffice to say it's a period when you want what ideally? Protein and carbs. Not fat. I think everyone (most) will agree with that. Extend that to the Post PWO meal - still going to be predominately protein and carbs depending on goals for many people.

    Outside of the hours following an intensive workout, our bodies aren't so cooperative when it comes to making efficient use of nutrients. Once the effects of the workout have worn off, we return to normal physiological functioning, which is characterized by normal insulin sensitivity/resistance and a relative reduction in anabolic hormone levels. The rest of the day has the greatest variability obviously, but for the average person, while protein is a constant, quite simply, you don't need as many carbs, so you can use fat (say fruit as well) as a caloric ballast to help you meet your daily caloric goals and aid in recovery. Basically low carb meals because they're really not needed.

    That's it. One way of timing macros according to your training. Not magic. It's not about the magic of macro splitting. It's simply a method of timing macros around periods you need them most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pengers84
    Is it true you should avoid combining carbs and fats in the one meal?
    No, that is not true. Almost every source of carbs has fat, even oatmeal, so it is almost impossible to keep the two seperate. As stated above, some find trying to has benefited them. For someone seeking anabolism, I don't recommend trying to completely eliminate fat from meals with carbs. Whey isolate and skim milk would be about the only protein sources you could have with carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateFromHell
    No, that is not true. Almost every source of carbs has fat, even oatmeal, so it is almost impossible to keep the two seperate. As stated above, some find trying to has benefited them. For someone seeking anabolism, I don't recommend trying to completely eliminate fat from meals with carbs. Whey isolate and skim milk would be about the only protein sources you could have with carbs.
    The point isn't really to have 0 carbs in a fat meal or 0 fat in a carb meal as like you said, that's almost impossible to do. The take home point with that 'method' is to minimize (not eliminate) carbs in fat meals and minimize (not eliminate) fats in carb meals for example, which again, of course is definitely not necessary to success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jodi
    Don't be so defensive.
    where specifically in my post do i come off defensive? you've misread a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    This really isn't complicated. Do you have to split of carbs and fats to see progress? Of course not. And it's correct that there's no published data to support it either. Mind you, there's really not any that directly refutes it either. Nor is there any published data that I'm aware of that supports something like say, carb/calorie cycling, yet many, many people find it more beneficial than static dieting. It is but ONE way of setting up a diet. Nothing magical, just a convenient way for some people to eat.

    It's also true that what tends to be most important is calories, adequate protein, adequate EFAs, etc. As someone said, (paraphrasing) anything that meets those qualifications and isn't stupid will work ... up to a point of course.

    I don't think anyone is saying macro splitting is magical. I don't think anyone HAS said that outside of hardcore JB followers back in the day.

    There ARE times during the day when you need and want certain macronutrients and times when these same nutrients are less than ideal, or even simply not really needed - and this really just reflects carb intake. Generally speaking, when consumed around greater periods of activity, nutrients tend to be absorbed and utilized more effectively. Everyone knows about the PWO hooplah, so suffice to say it's a period when you want what ideally? Protein and carbs. Not fat. I think everyone (most) will agree with that. Extend that to the Post PWO meal - still going to be predominately protein and carbs depending on goals for many people.

    Outside of the hours following an intensive workout, our bodies aren't so cooperative when it comes to making efficient use of nutrients. Once the effects of the workout have worn off, we return to normal physiological functioning, which is characterized by normal insulin sensitivity/resistance and a relative reduction in anabolic hormone levels. The rest of the day has the greatest variability obviously, but for the average person, while protein is a constant, quite simply, you don't need as many carbs, so you can use fat (say fruit as well) as a caloric ballast to help you meet your daily caloric goals and aid in recovery. Basically low carb meals because they're really not needed.

    That's it. One way of timing macros according to your training. Not magic. It's not about the magic of macro splitting. It's simply a method of timing macros around periods you need them most.
    nice post
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    Captian obvious says Thunder's your coach. He doesnt post here on IM for over 8 months, and now that you are a mod, he comes to post.. backing your/his opinion. Thats funny
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Captian obvious says Thunder's your coach. He doesnt post here on IM for over 8 months, and now that you are a mod, he comes to post.. backing your/his opinion. Thats funny
    Why is it funny? So she told me about the thread, big deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf
    you're missing my point entirely. that's irrelevant for the purpose of this argument. i'm simply stating that there is no one 'cookie cutter' method of dieting. both methods exist and neither is 'bollox'. there are success stories on both sides so how can one be more 'correct' than the other? that's just as asinine as saying bodypart training is the ONLY option...it's simply not.

    how is it illogical to split up your meals in a way that enables your body to utilize the macronutrients it needs at the times they will be best put to use? your body simply does not need p/c/f all day in each meal. however, it would be naive of me to state eating all three in each meal doesn't work because clearly it does...it's just not the only way. let's be a little open minded here.
    I wasnt missing the point. I was wondering if you had a biased opinion on the subject at hand. IE: never trying the other method.. So basically making an opinionated statement and not a factual one. So you're a success story on one side, thats all.. I never said there was one correct method, but having your meals split up int p/c p/f doesnt mean that the macros in those meals are being better used. Dont fucking question my open mindedness.. I was simply asking a question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Captian obvious says Thunder's your coach. He doesnt post here on IM for over 8 months, and now that you are a mod, he comes to post.. backing your/his opinion. Thats funny
    missing your point. did you have something to add pertaining to the topic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Why is it funny? So she told me about the thread, big deal.
    Its funny because I question where the statements are coming from now. Can you say:



    Tell Robert you should be a mod here too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    having your meals split up int p/c p/f doesnt mean that the macros in those meals are being better used.
    re-read my post. my point is that there is more than one option...not that one is superior to the other.

    Dont fucking question my open mindedness.. I was simply asking a question.
    is the cursing necessary? we're all adults here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    I wasnt missing the point. I was wondering if you had a biased opinion on the subject at hand. IE: never trying the other method.. So basically making an opinionated statement and not a factual one. So you're a success story on one side, thats all.. I never said there was one correct method, but having your meals split up int p/c p/f doesnt mean that the macros in those meals are being better used. Dont fucking question my open mindedness.. I was simply asking a question.
    I've tried both. Done pre-comp both ways. I got way leaner by eating P+C & P+F

    EDIT: and didn't have to do nearly as much cardio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Its funny because I question where the statements are coming from now. Can you say:



    Tell Robert you should be a mod here too.
    so are you a parrot for siding with emma?

    get over yourself jake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Its funny because I question where the statements are coming from now. Can you say:

    Tell Robert you should be a mod here too.
    Will you find it funny when Wild shows up all of a sudden?

    Listen, don't start talking about parrotting here, since I've got quite a counter to that.

    Kristen has learned some stuff from me. Does that make her a parrot? Because some of what she says might sound similar to some of what I might say? Do 'students' learn from 'teachers'? Do you know how many parrots post on message boards? Even here? Everyone learns from someone else. I'm really not understanding the problem with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Tell Robert you should be a mod here too.
    I actually own two parrots, and they have more intelligent things to say than the crap you're posting in this thread.

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