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    Does more mass = greater strength gains






    If you have more muscle mass is it easier to gain strength?

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    skeletal muscle hypertrophy = more mass and more strength...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    skeletal muscle hypertrophy = more mass and more strength...
    Correction...

    =a higher capacity for strength gain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Correction...

    =a higher capacity for strength gain.
    Correction......you are wrong go look up the definition of skeletal hypertrophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    Correction......you are wrong go look up the definition of skeletal hypertrophy
    I am not sure what skeletal hypertrophy is, but muscular hypertrophy is enlargement of muscle fibers and does not necessarily equate to higher levels of strength. Tendon attachment has a great deal to do with it, but holding that constant, motor unit recruitment has more to do with strength. Look up Rob Wagner, a powerlifter. I think you outweigh him by 40-50lbs, and I imagine his bench press is larger than yours, and that is his weak lift. And he competes in tested events., and is a couple of years older than you.

    If hypertrophy were the only variable, BBers would hold all of the strength records. They hold none. Hypertrophy gives you a certain capacity for strength gain, actual strength training gets you closer to that capacity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    I am not sure what skeletal hypertrophy is, but muscular hypertrophy is enlargement of muscle fibers and does not necessarily equate to higher levels of strength. Motor unit recruitment and tendon attachment have as much to do with strength as hypertrophy. Look up Rob Wagner, a powerlifter. I think you outweigh him by 40-50lbs, and I imagine his bench press is larger than yours, and that is his weak lift. And he competes in tested events., and is a couple of years older than you.
    You miss-read my post....here it is again
    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...16&postcount=2
    You can see that I said " skeletal muscle hypertrophy" not skeletal hyper trophy......

    Here is the definition of skeletal muscle: Muscle composed of cylindrical multinucleate cells with obvious striations; the muscle(s) attached to the body's skeleton; voluntart muscle.

    Here is some info on skeletal muscle hypertrophy

    Force of Muscle Contraction
    The force of muscle contraction is affected by (1) the number of muscle fibers stimulated, (2) the relative size of the fibers,
    (3) frequency of stimulation, and (4) the degree of muscle stretch.

    Size of Muscle Fibers Stimulated
    The bulkier the muscle ( the greater its cross-sectional area), the more tension it can develope and the greater its strength, but there is more to it than this. As noted earlier, the large fibers of large motor units are very effective in producing the most powerful movements. Regular exercise increases muscle force by causing cells to hypertrophy or increase in size.


    Hope that clears up my opinions on the topic.
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    Also their is more to world records in power than muscular measurements.....the length of bones, the attachmnet sites of muscles, and many other things people are just born with.

    You and a guy of your exact height, weight and muscle size will not have the same exact strength.....and you two will not have the exact same time in the 100m dash, you will not have the same ping pong skills... its just genetics....life aint fair...
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    Just semantics...It's why you do a hypertrophy cycle right before a strength cycle. You build up the cross-sectional area allowing for a higher capacity for strength gain, then you work on recruiting more fibers in a strength cycle.

    If you hold recruitment constant, then you are correct. Hypertrophy training isn't that great at hitting the fibers that need to be recruited for "strength".

    I was just breaking balls on the skeletal hypertrophy thing, I know what you meant. Furthermore, I knew that you knew that you knew what you meant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules

    You and a guy of your exact height, weight and muscle size will not have the same exact strenght.....and you two will not have the exact same time in the 100m dash.....its just genetics....life aint fair...
    I know, I would be faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Just semantics...It's why you do a hypertrophy cycle right before a strength cycle. You build up the cross-sectional area allowing for a higher capacity for strength gain, then you work on recruiting more fibers in a strength cycle.

    If you hold recruitment constant, then you are correct. Hypertrophy training isn't that great at hitting the fibers that need to be recruited for "strength".

    I was just breaking balls on the skeletal hypertrophy thing, I know what you meant. Furthermore, I knew that you knew that you knew what you meant.
    No it is the actual definition from a Anatomy & Physiology text book. If you choose to disreguard it then fine, thats your business. I think it is the main factor that determines muscle strength, but not the only one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    No it is the actual definition from a Anatomy & Physiology text book. If you choose to disreguard it then fine, thats your business. I think it is the main factor that determines muscle strength, but not the only one.

    Strength shouldn't be in the definition of hypertrophy. Also, I think the "can develop" part is misleading. Assume you and I start an 8 week training program and are of equal strength, and I do 4 weeks of hypertrophy training followed by 4 weeks of strength training, and you do 8 weeks of hypertrophy training. You would come out of it with a greater increase in muscle size (hypertrophy), but I would come out with greater strength increase.

    Hypertrophy leads to larger muscle fibers to recruit, but the high-end fibers are not recruited with hypertrophy training, thus you need to train at a lower rep range.

    I know you aren't saying it is the only factor. What I am saying is it gives you a greater potential for strength increase, but you will not realize that potential thru hypertrophy training. Also, given the above example, if I trained strength for 8 weeks and you trained in a hypertrophy range, I believe I would come out stronger at the end of that 8 weeks, but if we continud that over a longer time period and you threw in a couple of strength cycles, you would eventually surpass me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Strength shouldn't be in the definition of hypertrophy. Also, I think the "can develop" part is misleading. Assume you and I start an 8 week training program and are of equal strength, and I do 4 weeks of hypertrophy training followed by 4 weeks of strength training, and you do 8 weeks of hypertrophy training. You would come out of it with a greater increase in muscle size (hypertrophy), but I would come out with greater strength increase.

    Hypertrophy leads to larger muscle fibers to recruit, but the high-end fibers are not recruited with hypertrophy training, thus you need to train at a lower rep range.

    I know you aren't saying it is the only factor. What I am saying is it gives you a greater potential for strength increase, but you will not realize that potential thru hypertrophy training. Also, given the above example, if I trained strength for 8 weeks and you trained in a hypertrophy range, I believe I would come out stronger at the end of that 8 weeks, but if we continud that over a longer time period and you threw in a couple of strength cycles, you would eventually surpass me.
    Defien the difference in these two types of training....
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    Hypertrophy rep range 8-12, strength rep range 2-8. Keeping in mind you will get some strength from the hypertrophy and vice versa. 60 seconds between sets for hypertrophy, complete recovery for strength. Similar volume.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    Hypertrophy rep range 8-12, strength rep range 2-8. Keeping in mind you will get some strength from the hypertrophy and vice versa. 60 seconds between sets for hypertrophy, complete recovery for strength. Similar volume.
    I agree with you then if you are talking about a 1 rep max.....If I do sets of 10-12 and you do sets of 3-5 and we are identacal twins at the exact same training level when we start then in the end I would be better at a 12 rep max and you would be better than a 3 rep max..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    I would come out stronger at the end of that 8 weeks, but if we continud that over a longer time period and you threw in a couple of strength cycles, you would eventually surpass me.
    Using this logic, if a bodybuilder 'threw in a couple of strength cycles' he would be able to set world records. Interesting theory, but I smell BS unless I'm completely misunderstanding you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    I agree with you then if you are talking about a 1 rep max.....If I do sets of 10-12 and you do sets of 3-5 and we are identacal twins at the exact same training level when we start then in the end I would be better at a 12 rep max and you would be better than a 3 rep max..

    hence the reason that linear periodization is not the best method for training and some sort of hybrid approach would be more effecient.


    Bigger muscles= greater amount of hyerptrophy= a greater potential for strength provided the proper neurological connection is established.

    One could get big by using a slow tempo rep pace of say 6/3/6 (ecc/iso/con). The weight that the individual would be using to complete say 8-10 reps would have to be grossly submaximal to withstand that amount of time under tension. But, it could lead to a greater amount of growth without ever increasing the persons strength. Obviously that tempo restriction is pretty extreme (more super slow training) but even still.


    Using this logic, if a bodybuilder 'threw in a couple of strength cycles' he would be able to set world records. Interesting theory, but I smell BS unless I'm completely misunderstanding you.
    It would take more than a "couple" strength cycles to set world records. You are grossley down playing the abilities of those that set these records if you figure that to be true. A bodybuilder would have to train for strength for a long amount of time to allow the proper strength adaptaions to occur to be able to complete with world record holder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by P-funk
    It would take more than a "couple" strength cycles to set world records. You are grossley down playing the abilities of those that set these records if you figure that to be true. A bodybuilder would have to train for strength for a long amount of time to allow the proper strength adaptaions to occur to be able to complete with world record holder.
    That's pretty much my point. He stated that, if he continued strength training for a longer period of time, the one with hypertrophy gains could essentially gain strength much more easily. What happened to CNS adaptations and the fact that you can get much, much stronger while not being very big at all? It just doesn't seem to me like someone who is bigger has much more potential when you consider that muscles aren't the only things involved in strength.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin
    He stated that, if he continued strength training for a longer period of time, the one with hypertrophy gains could essentially gain strength much more easily.
    No I didn't, I said he would have more potential for strength gain. I said nothing to the extent that he would gain it more easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin
    What happened to CNS adaptations and the fact that you can get much, much stronger while not being very big at all? It just doesn't seem to me like someone who is bigger has much more potential when you consider that muscles aren't the only things involved in strength.
    Just because he has greater potential for strength gain doesn't necessarily mean he is going to achieve it. If hypertrophy didn't make a difference, someone in the 90kg weight class could outlift someone of the same ability in the 100kg weight class, assuming of course the same bf%. That doesn't happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin
    What happened to CNS adaptations and the fact that you can get much, much stronger while not being very big at all?

    You can get as strong as you possibly can but there will be a limit. Once you hit that limit you will need to increase you muscle mass inorder to have a greater potential for more strength gain (read foreman's post above from some textbook (or where ever he took it from) on strength). This is why guys in powerlifting or olympic lifting will sometimes go up a weight class....more muscle = greater strength (or strength potential). takes mass to move mass.

    It just doesn't seem to me like someone who is bigger has much more potential when you consider that muscles aren't the only things involved in strength.
    why is it that the strongest guys in meets are the superheavy weights? What about the world strongman.....why don't you ever hear about light weight world strongman? Takes mass to move mass. The more muscle you have the more potential you have to move a greater amount of load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin
    It just doesn't seem to me like someone who is bigger has much more potential when you consider that muscles aren't the only things involved in strength.
    What other factors do you mean?

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    I definitely see what you guys are saying, but I was referring to the people in the 132 lb class who can deadlift 700 pounds and other crazy things. Of course someone bigger may be able to do more, but compared to BW, the smaller guys are usually on top. Not what we were discussing but it's what I must have been thinking of. I also forget that a lot of guys who set records like this aren't raw or natural, which completely messes up my thinking.

    I was thinking about neural adaptations. As in you can get a hell of a lot stronger without gaining muscle before it becomes a necessity to improve. I was also thinking about having tendon and ligament strength. For example, a person may be able to generate 300 pounds of force with each forearm, but could snap his biceps tendon attempting a 300 pound farmers walk because he hadn't done the exercise before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Mabry
    No I didn't, I said he would have more potential for strength gain. I said nothing to the extent that he would gain it more easily.
    You said that if someone trained for strength and another for hypertrophy that the hypertrophy trainer could surpass the strength of the strength trainer by 'throwing in a couple of strength cycles' or something to that extent. To me, it sounded like you were basically saying that he could gain the strength at a faster rate and more easily.

    I also was thinking along the lines of the fact that, if you got to the point that neural adaptations were at a maximum and hypertrophy was the only way for your body to increase in strength, that it would start growing out of necessity. This does hold true doesn't it? In other words, the body will get bigger, but only as big as it absolutely needs to in order to increase in the necessary amount of strength.
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    Squaggle, powerlifters don't only train for strength. They train for hypertrophy too. You have to alternate intensities to prevent achieving homeostasis and help stave off overtraining. If you look at bodybuilders who do go heavy, Ronnie Coleman being one example, they are hella strong. Ronnie can squat 800 raw for a couple reps.

    I'm willing to bet some of them could set world records if they altered their training methods for a sufficient duration.
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    Top powerlifters are that because of their genetics, just like Bodybuilders or any other top athletes.....you guys over think the simple far too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    Top powerlifters are that because of their genetics, just like Bodybuilders or any other top athletes.....you guys over think the simple far too much.
    That definitely has something to do with it, but there is still a difference in training that goes into achieving structural and neural adaptations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowPimp
    That definitely has something to do with it, but there is still a difference in training that goes into achieving structural and neural adaptations.
    Every sport requires special training....but if you get stronger you get bigger....developing a specific rep strength is just a final touch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowPimp
    Squaggle, powerlifters don't only train for strength. They train for hypertrophy too. You have to alternate intensities to prevent achieving homeostasis and help stave off overtraining. If you look at bodybuilders who do go heavy, Ronnie Coleman being one example, they are hella strong. Ronnie can squat 800 raw for a couple reps.

    I'm willing to bet some of them could set world records if they altered their training methods for a sufficient duration.
    Damn. I guess the people who do dinosaur training really are the only ones as obsessed with strength training as I am then. So does that mean that the body will not grow larger to accomodate increases in strength?

    I don't think using Coleman as an example is very fair. How many drugs is that guy taking? I always talk about people who just use hard work to get where they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    Every sport requires special training....but if you get stronger you get bigger....developing a specific rep strength is just a final touch.

    Here...I'll sum it up....(and I agree 1005 with the genetics comment)....

    If you get stronger and YOU EAT you will get bigger.

    If you get stronger and you don't eat enough then you will just get stronger.


    How do I know....I have done it under both circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForemanRules
    Every sport requires special training....but if you get stronger you get bigger....developing a specific rep strength is just a final touch.
    If you get stronger you don't necessarily get bigger. How else do powerlifters maintain their weight classes but get stronger if that is the case?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowPimp
    If you get stronger you don't necessarily get bigger. How else do powerlifters maintain their weight classes but get stronger if that is the case?
    I thought the whole idea was just that the weight limits the strength at some point. I was just wondering if the strength would force the weight to increase, but P-Funk answered my question with one of the basics: weight will increase if calories increase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin
    Damn. I guess the people who do dinosaur training really are the only ones as obsessed with strength training as I am then. So does that mean that the body will not grow larger to accomodate increases in strength?
    Yes it will, if you eat enough food. Of course, your routine is extremely low in volume, so hypertrophy will probably be limited in comparison to what it could be assuming the proper diet.


    I don't think using Coleman as an example is very fair. How many drugs is that guy taking? I always talk about people who just use hard work to get where they are.
    All the top powerlifters and strongmen use drugs too. That doesn't invalidate my point one bit.
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