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    copper deficiency

    I just got my labs test back and serum copper and ceruoplasm were low. What are the effects of a proven copper deficiency and how would it impact ones metabolism, digestion, anabolism? I beleive the reasoning for the low levels were too many antagonistic factors sulfur, lipoic, acid, excess zinc, ect
    Thanks

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    Excess zinc would be my first guess. Acid? Naw..its soluble in acid; to remove acids you want to chelate them, not acidify them. Sulfates/sulfites...whats your source for so much sulfer? Lipoic acid? Sure, it has sulfur and could potentially chelate your copper.

    Thing is, a lab test is used to confirm a deficiency. Do you have symptoms of copper deficiency, HAN?

    Lets start there. And then talk about copper-containing foods, and its role in health, as a active metal reactive center in many enzyme complexes.

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    Yes all symptoms of copper: hair loss, lack of appetite, anemic like symptoms even when ferritin, b-12, folic acid is adequete, weight loss, retard growth, low thyroid, chills, lack of pigmentation in skin, and hair discoloration it has like a blue gray tint to it vs normal color, blood sugar irregularities.
    Symptoms got worse when following detoxification protocol

    i can only speculate becauase symtpoms of copper deficeincy are same as iron..Biggest one is short ness of breath and feeling of lack of oxygen to tissue. Is there a specific one that i should look for

    Food wise dr has me eating 6 whole eggs a day organic to try to flush out their assume "mercury toxicity" with 5 grams MSM, 400 mcgs molybenum, 600 mgs alpha lipioic, large dosages of b complexes, folic acid, extra manganese, ketogenic diet ( High fat lots of fruits and veggies) , alot of cocconut oil (saturated fats)

    And here I found that high fat and fructose makes copper deficeinc worse!!
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/1/105

    I have always had low normal copper and ceruoplasm, for longest time (after i got sick) but it was ignored by drs because I was like one point from the lowest number on the serum level but never "out of range" but now symptoms expecially in the blood are really starting to show. Since going on DETOX diet my white blood cell count and neutrophils dropped out of normal range !! Copper based foods before I got sick was NONE!! I did not eat nuts, liver, ect and I read that using stimulents such as caffine and ephederine, winstrol could possible make your body use more copper since adrenals secret adrenailine which stimulate the copper enzyme ceruoplasm. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.

    For over 2 years my body was craving nuts, cashews, sunflour seeds, amonds and I never knew why could it been that it wanted the copper in them. all of these unsalted

    MY adrenals seem to be functioinig again from stress reduction techniques and also stopping fish extra fish oils which were over loaded in my system from red cell lipid analysis. Since fish oils suppresses immune system, and lowers cortisol.

    Serum cortisol verified this at 17 range 4-22. But before the test I was in an arguement with the nurse 5 minutes before the blood drawn. Could this have altered the cortisol response and given a false high?

    But I am waiting on the salvia cortisol to come back to verify this. I am not converting t-4 to t-3 optimally and this is a problem from the start could copper be involved some how with this

    copper based foods now are nuts, cashew, almonds with 5 mgs copper chelate and reducing the chelating agents (zinc, ALA, mangansese, iron,eggs, fats) and then I can retest from their in 5 weeks to see if they rose.

    I took 50 mgs of iron other night and started to hypovenulate ? was that because of low copper levels ?

    Does zinc even in chelated form affect copper metabolism ?

    What function if any does have copper have on gluthione ?

    I was thinking wilson's disease, but I only got check in the eyes no rings were found. Would a copper urine test be more appropiate?

    what are Biological implication of low copper ?

    Thanks
    Last edited by hardasnails1973; 05-22-2006 at 10:53 AM.

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    >Yes all symptoms of copper: hair loss, lack of appetite, anemic like symptoms even when ferritin, b-12, folic acid is adequete, weight loss, retard growth, low thyroid, chills, lack of pigmentation in skin, and hair discoloration it has like a blue gray tint to it vs normal color, blood sugar irregularities.
    Symptoms got worse when following detoxification protocol

    Well, we know your thyroid isn't functioning correctly. Skin with a blue-grey tint to it..nail beds would be blue, that would seem to suggest imparied oxygen transport. Zinc also plays a role in pigmentation of skin and hair, and its a known issue for hypothyroidism. Oxygen transport tends to be the domain of heme (iron) function.

    We'll get to that one further down in this reply.

    I would be ...hestitant to lay all your problems at the feet of mineral deficiency. Your 'detox' program seems to have stripped out some minerals, and thats not a surprise if it featues use of EDTA to chelate mercury.

    [HAN, your problem lies in your tinkering with your chemistry..you don't have a disease as much as disrupted tissue function, most of it self induced. Thats a harsh reality, but I'm beginning to suspect its the truth here.]

    It has tendency to chelate a lot more than just mercury.

    Now, your digestion, and healthy functioning of your gut just might be an issue here. Your have very specific mechansims for elimination of mercury, and that involves blood catalase in lungs, transport of the deactivated mercury to waste processing and diposal (liver) and excretion into the lower GI.

    And that is where the facultative anerobes and their ability to access and process excreted compounds comes into play. Fiber consistancy in gut solid waste controls the action of these bacteria, who are there at the end of the pipeline, feeding comensalistically, part of a community, on the flotsam that comes down the food processing pipe/waste disposal system.

    By the time excreted metals reaches this population, they should be hindred from accessing fiber bound contaminants, cause its supposed to have a certain consistancy. 'Nuf water bound to keep it mobile, but also enough fiber to give it structure, and provide a safety net to keep these anerobes from reactivating certain contaminants - meaning keeps them turning heavy metals and organic toxins into potenial carcinogens.

    Those fecal coliform are sorta neutral players in gut for us...they have a limited role in your gut transformation of food, but an important role in futher breakdown of excreted matter in the environment.

    Nature tends to think ahead for whats necessary in chemcial recycle.

    So lets get back to your issues...that aside is a hint, to that you look to your diet first off, for a key on how to regain your health.

    Healthy diet, rich in fiber, soluble and insoluble, is a key to metal processing and waste disposal. Don't need no chelators - you got them built into a healthy diet and metabolic function in a buncha different tissues.

    >alot of cocconut oil (saturated fats)

    Moderation here, same as with fish oils. I wouldn't be quick to pitch the baby out with the bathwater. The coconut oil is to help stimulate adnrenal function (which is palmitic acid derived)...but there are better fats for it, one that you have reduced in diet for some reason: ALA.

    300 mg of the active form (R-enantiomer, potassium salt) is what you want. Do not use the fuckchop mixed enantiomer form (alpha lipoic acid, mixed R and S), you want the version that is predominantly R form, because the S form seems to have some negative (binding inhibition), and you wouldn't find it in natural sources, it being produced biologically in the R form, and only synthetically in the S form (synthesis yields a 50:50 mix of the the two, in cheap ass supplements).

    > And here I found that high fat and fructose makes copper deficeinc worse!!

    HAN, fructose is just not a good idea for you, your have insulin sensitivity problems. I think you need to review your diet recommendations and its, ahh, tendency to cause more problems, rather than solve them.

    >For over 2 years my body was craving nuts, cashews, sunflour seeds, amonds and I never knew why could it been that it wanted the copper in them. all of these unsalted

    Could just as well be a craving for other micronutrients in these foods, including fat. Given that you were, ahh, prone to stripping fat down to real low levels for competition.

    >MY adrenals seem to be functioinig again from stress reduction techniques and also stopping fish extra fish oils which were over loaded in my system from red cell lipid analysis. Since fish oils suppresses immune system, and lowers cortisol.

    So how much are you taking? Should be about 4-5 grams of pure EPA/DHA, which works out to about 8-10 grams of fish oil.

    Too little PUFAn-3 (omega 3s fatty acids) and too much saturated fats, thats asking for problems in phospholipid tissue profiles in membranes. That changes fluidity, and that fluidity affects enzyme function in membranes. Key here is that the PL (phospholipid) composition is unique in various tissues - for a darned good reason, evolutionarily determined.

    I think thats part of your problem (membrane fluidity), but I could be wrong. Moderation is what you want here, HAN, you need some, and you need to avoid the pressure from well meaning physicians to over dose, unless there is damn compelling reason for doing so...and even then, its kept short term.

    >Serum cortisol verified this at 17 range 4-22. But before the test I was in an arguement with the nurse 5 minutes before the blood drawn. Could this have altered the cortisol response and given a false high?

    Maybe, but i think the time of day (like morning) is going to have an overwhelming effect on plasma cortisol measured...like 8 times the concentration of late afternoon. Get my point? The incremental change in a few minutes, ain't be enough to give you a bad number.

    > I am not converting t-4 to t-3 optimally and this is a problem from the start could copper be involved some how with this

    Thats where glutathione, selenium, methionine and cysteine metabolism come in.

    You fucked your adrenals over right good, and they sort shut down on you a while ago. You also have stress control issues that need attention, because all the supps in the world ain't gonna keep you from hypogonadal, hypoadrenal, and hypothyroid issues, if you can't keep a lid on stress...its that evening/early morning (zero hour to 8am) rise in cortisol that you want to keep from being too high, or too low. Interestingly, its the daytime cortisol levels that can drop off and cause overt problems, but its the nightnight elevated cortisol that can sneak up and really muck up thyroid, brain, and adrenal function, from disrupted sleep and cellular repairs.

    >I took 50 mgs of iron other night and started to hypovenulate ? was that because of low copper levels ?

    No sir, it was due to your fucked up rationalization of your health problems and directly from overdose of iron:

    "Serum iron levels greater than 300µg/dL (combined with transferrin oversaturation) may indicate iron poisoning which is characterized by
    abdominal pain, diarrhea, or vomiting which progresses to pallor or cyanosis, lassitude, drowsiness, hyperventilation due to acidosis, and
    cardiovascular collapse."

    This suggests you might have a problem with pH regulation. Carnosine is a pH regulator, as is phosphate. NAC also plays a role.

    Does zinc even in chelated form affect copper metabolism ?

    >What function if any does have copper have on gluthione ?

    You download this pdf and peep this article carefully. The answer is: highly important.

    >I was thinking wilson's disease, but I only got check in the eyes no rings were found. Would a copper urine test be more appropiate?

    That diagnosis and dignostic test, HAN, lies in the hands of the physicians you're seeing. I'm not here for diagnosis and treatment, just to answer your questions best as I can, but I am not a clinical medical practitioner.

    >what are Biological implication of low copper ?

    Do a search on the term:

    The physiological role of copper....and ...the problems of copper nutritional deficiency.

    Its roles include:removing excesses of free radicals, biogenic amines and cholesterol --the proper synthesis of hemoglobin, elastin, collagen and probably thyroid hormones --providing the energy formed in the respiratory chain and needed for biochemical syntheses and proper physical activity.

    Not a brief chit-chat topic, but given your concerns, one worthy of your time for a little self education.

    Glutathione, thats the ticket you want to concentate on, HAN. Its a big player in the role of renormalizing chemcially interrupted thyroid function.
    Last edited by Trouble; 05-22-2006 at 12:03 PM.

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    Thanks these shed alot of light on things. Since my adrenals seem to be functioning sleep quality has improved tremendously, but again to narrow it down just to adrenals with so many other things going on is hard to say. The stress reduction priniciples are defineltyl making a difference.

    i am on a well balanced whole food diet with everything in moderation. i use organic butter, EVO olive oil, hemp oil for my fats,

    I know my ph is off because my anion gap is way out of range, but they seem not so concerned. All krebs cycle metabolites are low, except ammonia is n normal range. If my body is low on lactic acid and pyruvate in tissues where is it being stored in my blood?

    You did make up a good point about soluable and insoluable fiber. It has very little insoluable fiber because of lack of grains, and tons of soluable fiber from green veggies, fruits. Fruits will be moderated to once a day 1 serving. Insolubale fiber will be increased as noted.

    Digestion is rather poor but I can not get an GI dr to test for low stomach acids they do not beleive in it, but I do what them to rule out celiac disease or shorten villa. From being hypometabolism digestion is very slow.

    Would taking digetive enzyme in offset for the low stomach acids and would I still be able to get the minerals from my food?

    I use using the regular ALA vs R-ala could that have made a difference?

    i have reduced the zinc to just what is in the multivitamin and no extra
    i stopped shot gunning b vitamin and went to lower more balanced approach

    Your point about Membrane fluidity seems valid as my body seems to be holding on to toxins and not letting nutrients in.


    By RBC lipid profile
    ratio of 3:6 omegas was 10:1 vs the 1:4 ratio ---will this impact cell membrane function as you indicated

    ferrtin levels serum was 60 out of 300
    Calcium levels are now back from high normal to midrange so that is a BIG PLUS


    So there have been improvements little bit at a time...
    Since rebalancing things breathing has gotten better in last week so we must be on the right track. i am just trying to keep every thing balanced and not go over board like before. THis has been problem drs have been looking at bits and pieces and have not even concidered stress reduction only to have you take paxil and thats there conclusion as diagnosis for many people
    Last edited by hardasnails1973; 05-22-2006 at 02:42 PM.

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    Lengthy Reply 3

    >but again to narrow it down just to adrenals with so many other things going on is hard to say. The stress reduction priniciples are defineltyl making a difference.

    Yes, its thyroid, brain and liver. You are a classic case, albeit with a twist from the detoxification treatment.

    >i am on a well balanced whole food diet with everything in moderation. i use organic butter, EVO olive oil, hemp oil for my fats.

    I will point out two items of concerrn. 1. Your saturated fat intake is high -you should be using olive oil, a product like sesalean for cooking along with EVO, a little walnut oil for variety in your salads, and fish oil. I would avoid the use of butter and reduce your use of coconut fats to a low level.

    2. If you have...indulged in ahh, maryjane enjoyment in the past, you may wish to be circumspect in your use of hemp oil. Its not unknown for those with disturbed immune systems to have an internal immune reaction (allergetic) to hemp oil products. That might cause gastric upset, as does butter if one has gallbladder disburbances due to bile acid issues in liver.

    >I know my ph is off because my anion gap is way out of range, but they seem not so concerned.

    You can remedy that situation. Magnesium citrate provides you with magnesium, which you maybe deficient in, given your leaky cell junction issues in guy and most likely kidney as well. It affords you with a buffering system and also with a fatty acid intermediate for energy.

    >All krebs cycle metabolites are low, except ammonia is n normal range. If my body is low on lactic acid and pyruvate in tissues where is it being stored in my blood?

    Be glad you don't have ammonia clearance issues, thank god for small miracles. TCA upset, problems with lactic acid transport/membrane translocation, of which there are three independent pathways (see my post in the lactic acid thread)..your problem is that there is disruption at the top of the pathway. You probably need a metabolic pathways lab analysis to get a better picture of where the disruption occurs, and from that, how to supplement and alter diet to help correct it.

    >Insolubale fiber will be increased as noted.

    Slowly, HAN, add in a little more barley bran to your shakes weekly. No fast changes, your gut can't handle it.

    >but I do what them to rule out celiac disease or shorten villa. From being hypometabolism digestion is very slow.

    You have a glutamine sulfatase issue. Glutamine supplementation plus magnesium will help. When you take this, use TMG 20 min ahead, to buffer the glucogenic hit to your pancreas. This will also slow gastic emptying, and allow the glutamine to be absorbed a bit better. Again, work up in dose.

    >Would taking digetive enzyme in offset for the low stomach acids and would I still be able to get the minerals from my food?

    The TMG will help (betaine is acidic) and yes, Super Enzyme by Now Foods might not be a bad idea to help your leaky gut syndrome.

    >I use using the regular ALA vs R-ala could that have made a difference?

    Geronova has a dependable and reputable form of KRALA that you should be using in preference to the low grade mixed enantiomer form of lipoic acid.

    Yes, this might be an issue. If copper is low, the S enantiomer form might be binding copper and giving you no benefit (it is inactive).

    >Your point about Membrane fluidity seems valid as my body seems to be holding on to toxins and not letting nutrients in.

    Yes, hence the suggestion to improve the unsaturated:saturated ratio of your dietary fat intake.

    >THis has been problem drs have been looking at bits and pieces and have not even concidered stress reduction only to have you take paxil and thats there conclusion as diagnosis for many people

    Sam-e, if you are not taking it, must be on your list. 200-400mg, twice per day, with water, 20 min before eating. A must for you HAN, your methylations reactions suck. The TMG will also help, delivering extra methyl groups and also affording you a little methionone.

    You are taking extra vitamin C, eh? 3-4 grams per day, to help maintain glutathione, which you are also deficient in...selenium methionate, HAN. Use it.

    What is test production like? If its low, we will talk about tweeking the pituitary and thyroid to help move it along towards normal.

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    Yes my dr said I was undermylethated, but I knew this long before hand. My homocystein levels just came back way out of range low so that would verify you saying I am undermethlyenated is an understatement. She did mentioned that methylation is what holds the cell together and with out cells would come unglued so to speak.


    Could the over dosing on folonic acid, and methycobalonin drop homocysteine m that low ?

    Could the altered thyroid cause the homocystein levels to drop and what are the risk factors for hypohomocystemia?

    I was using Samme due to thinning the bile so liver could clear out toxins and glutethioine production, then did switch to TMG at 1000 mgs TID.

    REason she had me doing the organic butter , whole organic eggs was because my arachonic acids where dangerously because of epa/dha where off the charts preventing the conversion from GLA to arachonic acid. She was working on stabilizing my membranes through Fatty acid imbalances. i stopped the cocconut oil because specific fatty acids from it was off the charts. I stopped the hemp oil awhile ago and actually just throw it out. It was over 6 weeks old.

    All fatty acid metabolism through metaboic testing where also low so could this be preventing the conversion into the needed prostaglandins and giving me fatty acid deficiency since they are not be utlized?

    MY liver detoxification test awhile back should low sulfate, low gluthiione, elevated lipid perioxidation.

    Would samme be a much better methylator then TMG or would I need both

    My serum b-12 and folic acids are off the charts could this be result of being undermethylated, but metabolic profile showed that b-12, folic acid levels were low even though serums where off the charts?

    Glutamine seems to be converting to glutamate verified by several urine tests so what is the signficance of this? I have no dectible gabba levels.

    Yes you are absolutely right about citric acid, MY citric acid in metabolic testing showed that is was barely even measuring and i was looking for a way to increase it but I did not know how,but if the magnesium citrate would work get kreb cycle moving then I will switch. My krebs cycle is at a stand still !! Are there any other sources of citric acid that could be an alternative source? i can not find citrate as a supplement any where.

    What about alkasetzer gold before bed to help reduce acidicity?
    My ph of urine and salvia are acid when waking up not during the day time


    On the metabolic testing it mentioined about AKG..What significance would that have?

    When you speak about metabolic testing I had urine labs ran from great plains and metametrix and both pretty much veryified same thing.
    Low citric acid, low gluthione, glycine pathway is weak. What other labs offer this. i am going to have nutritional anayalsis ran by spectracell to see what vitamins i am missing and then supplements accordingly instead of shot gunning high dosages.

    Does it matter what brand i use for magnesium citrate any one that you recommend?

    Testosrone is in the shitter 200 vs normal 900. using test creme now
    Could that put a damper on protein synthesis?
    Wouldn't balancing the thyroid and adrenals raise the testosterone ?
    dhea is mid normal but I have been supplementing with 50 mgs a day
    pregneolone was super low and i found correlation that low pregnelone is related to hypothyroidism GO FIGURE.

    I am waiting on the cortisol levels from salvia to verify them so that will give a better over all picture.

    I am taking super digestiver enyzme from NOW as well 2 with a meal, i also add a digestive gold in there as well just incase

    Yes increasing fiber slowly especially insoluable kind. Stool are mush !! not formed. Colon feels dehyrated and that I do not have the energy to push.

    Fiber intake was only 3 TBSP flax seeds and just from veggies (greens, squash,dandilion roots, broccolli, ect) so probably about 20 grams a day-25 MAX mostly soluable and not insoluable

    ascorbic acid serum levels are high normal but it looks like it is not getting i guess you say oxidized or metabolized as metabolic testing was showing,
    Doesn't too much C chelate copper as well. i been taking 3,000-4,000 mgs for a while years and still it is not metabolizing. My body gets diareahh on 1,000 mgs at a time even with ester -c. i upper vitamin C to 5,000 o time and it made me really tired and only thing I changed.



    Yes i am using selenium methylcysteine from jarrow, but my multivitamin i take from metagenics has it in asparate form instead. total is 400 mcgs a day

    Could one be insulin resistance even though blood profile does not refect it? such low hdl, elevated ldh, elevated LDL, ect.

    With armour thyroid my t-4 rises but t-3 remains the same and RT# elevates this I can not find a dr to explain to me or to treat it. I am waiting to get cortisol test back to see if cortisol levels are low and what was causing me to crash every time I would increase dosages of t-3. On 12.5 mcgs of t-3 my tongue was starting to turn from white to pink and then I upped the dosages slowly to 25 mcgs and I started to get insomnia and very tired during the day time so I know that adreanls where crashing this happened to me before. So I am waiting for test and to go back to dr which is very opened minded about things and is willing to try, but he really does not know and can not find a dr who does around here. From test results armour thyroid seems to be no working and increasing the RT3 which is not good.

    Supplements dr recommended based normal CBC and metabolic panel, RBC lipids
    1000 mgs b1,b2,b3, b5
    20000 mcgs bioton
    8000 mcgs folonic acid
    10000 mcgs of methylcobalin
    400 mgs 5htp
    600 mgs theanine
    1000 mgs tyrsoine
    6 TBSP of balanced EFAS
    8 whole organic eggs
    300 mgs pregnelone
    50 mgs DHEA
    inositol 2 grams
    PC 3 grams
    electrolye fomrula (mg,k,na) balanced alot of it

    Number one thing fucked up liver would conversion to coenzymatic forms of b complexes correct?

    She is working on
    Stabilizing cell membranes through proper fat compostioin 3:6 ratio and diet
    balance out the sodium /potassium gates
    lower renegades fats - this is done by balancing thyroid and B2 according to her testing results
    She preaches methylation but never suggested anything for it - BIG PROBLEM

    The report was very impressive and explains it in detail, but when it points out something she seems to skip over it especailly thyroid, adrenals.

    Here whole philsophy heal the cell membranes and body will heal itself, but untill that time other areas should be addressed . She has awesome articles her name is Dr Patricia kane, but drs rarely practice what they preach.

    Oaktown went to the best thyroid specialist and he wrote in his book about how to address the adrenals first, but neglected to even do that when he stuck him on armour with weaken adrenals.
    Last edited by hardasnails1973; 05-23-2006 at 09:42 AM.

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    Wordy reply Four - The magic of methylation

    >She did mentioned that methylation is what holds the cell together and with out cells would come unglued so to speak.

    Ah yes, a reaction type that is common in the body and more recently understood to play a very important role in gene expression and gene maintenance, so it is important to gene transcription, ribosomal translation of transcripts and the protein products, which are modified post translationally, also undergo acetylation / methylation, as well as other modifications.
    Its safe to say..it very important.

    Now, glutathione metabolism is also predicated on feeds from more than one biosynthetic pathway in the liver. Two of these also donate methyl groups before handing over starting material for glutathione formation. So, there is a tight correlation between the functioning of these pathways. One of them isn't functioning well, chances are, the others aren't either. Hence, your problem with folate regulating homocysteine formation and its reversability for maintenance of methionone.

    You, HAN, are methionine deficient. You were probably low going into this debacle, and you tanked it with chemical manipulations..

    You can think of these supps as chemical rehab for the liver.

    >Could the over dosing on folonic acid, and methycobalonin drop homocysteine m that low ?

    No. Its a function of shitty absorption of these supplements from leaky gut, and probably the fact that you have pathway 'leaks' (you aren't recycling glutathione with ascorbate very well, and you may not be shuttling it through the body, if the liver is sucking most of it for itself (uses 70% anyway).

    Get my drift? Your body is really short-changed here..on reducing equivalents.

    High B6 could scew things up. 100 mg twice a day..time released formula is even better. Have to balance folate and methylcobalamin (there are more active forms of B12 you should look at, maybe consider sublingual format).

    Vitamin C for you, is fricking essential, for many reasons, but among them, the cysteine/methionone/folate pathways need it. You need it to regenerate GSH, and my guess is, one is sucking it away from the other other uses.

    >Could the altered thyroid cause the homocystein levels to drop and what are the risk factors for hypohomocystemia?

    Yes. .

    "Most people with a high homocysteine level don't get enough folate (also called folic acid), vitamin B6 or vitamin B12 in their diet. Replacing these vitamins helps return the homocysteine level to normal. Other possible causes of a high homocysteine level include low levels of thyroid hormone, kidney disease, psoriasis, or some medicines."

    >I was using Samme due to thinning the bile so liver could clear out toxins and glutethioine production, then did switch to TMG at 1000 mgs TID.

    No, you screwed up again. You can reduce somewhat the need for expensive sam-e by supplementing with TMG, but sorry, you can't supplant its use with it. Not a good idea, you need both. For you, 2-4 months minimum 400mg, twice a day, PLUS the TMG, in small doses. Moderation here, we don't want too many methylating equivalents, just enough...an excess has issues as well.

    >REason she had me doing the organic butter , whole organic eggs was because my arachonic acids where dangerously because of epa/dha where off the charts preventing the conversion from GLA to arachonic acid. She was working on stabilizing my membranes through Fatty acid imbalances. i stopped the cocconut oil because specific fatty acids from it was off the charts. I stopped the hemp oil awhile ago and actually just throw it out. It was over 6 weeks old.

    *shrug* You got a problem that you doctor doesn't quite understand.

    The inhibition of AA and inositol by dopamine. It down regulated adrenal function.

    Hello??! Yeah, you're not making much GABA, and your dopamine is a little problematic in your brain, your liver and yeah, thyroid and adrenals.

    So what we want is to goose up GABA and inositol.

    To do that, you take inositol, a little glucuronic acid lactone and a little IP6, not much. 10:2:2 ratio. You take this couple times day, in water. Say 2 tsp worth at a time.

    You take taurine, plus magneisum citrate plus GABA (1//4 tsp each). Now, your doctor would argue that GABA won't go up in brain due to BBB (blood brain barrier), but here HAN, we're treating the HPA thru the anterior pituitary (picking up TSH and kickstarting your thyroid) and hypothalamus, and also hitting the D2 in adrenals.

    See? Little molecular magic. Now, you gotta have that glutathione up and going, of thyroid production of receptors is gonna be shitty. Need zinc need selenium to do the job. Keep with your zinc, no more than 100mgs, spread out over 3 doses. Find and use the selenium methionate.

    Now, cAMP is also problematic here. Depending on how you react, we may use a little forskolin (95%, do not buy the 20%, please), in olive oil, 25 mg doses once or twice a day by oral syringe (to measure accurately)...but we only use that as a last resort to push the pituitary and adrenals into action. And we don't to endlessly push cAMP, that backfires in kidney tubules (promotes growth in basement tissues).

    Now glucose metabolism also sucks. You're going to have to use the citrrate as an TCA intermediate.

    Get the metabolic assay done, like I said, we have no fricking idea where TCA cycle is being hindered.

    Taurine will help two issues: first is low oxygen, high CO2, from improper breathing (stress related, not iron). Second is, it helps with hyperosmotic issues in cells, because you're not regulating water balance right.

    >All fatty acid metabolism through metaboic testing where also low so could this be preventing the conversion into the needed prostaglandins and giving me fatty acid deficiency since they are not be utlized?

    Nope, its a liver problem. The inositol will help for the reasons stated.

    >MY liver detoxification test awhile back should low sulfate, low gluthiione, elevated lipid perioxidation.

    No shit sherlock. Now, if you had omega-3 ups the yingyang, it might just be pushing lipid peroxidation, but I kinda doubt it. This is more about whole shortage of reducing equivalents.

    NAC, Vitamin C, normal dosing of omega 3, and Coenzyme Q10, Vitamin E mixed tocopherols.

    >My serum b-12 and folic acids are off the charts could this be result of being undermethylated, but metabolic profile showed that b-12, folic acid levels were low even though serums where off the charts?

    Yeah, and I mentioned this in OTBs thread. Its possible to have a backup in liver and have very low circulating B12 because of an inhibition in other pathways.

    This is in the biomed research lit, and it also seems to be part of an issue for some folks for appetite issues (low B12 driving leptin/ghrelin imbalance).

    >Glutamine seems to be converting to glutamate verified by several urine tests so what is the signficance of this? I have no dectible gabba levels.

    I'm responding to this reply of yours, as I read it first time, and so I am totally not surprised to see this no GABA production (although its always gratifying to read that you know that you're correct via lab analysis). Choline, kid. You gotta upregulate phosphoinositol cycle biosynthesis, and that will help bring up GABA, reduce your NMDA a bit, and help that leaky gut inflammation problem, also help correct the bile acid issue, and while we're at it, correct cholesterol and fat soluble vitamin issues, also blockading adrenals.

    > My krebs cycle is at a stand still !! Are there any other sources of citric acid that could be an alternative source? i can not find citrate as a supplement any where.

    Jesu, man, use your brain cells! 65K question(s) of the day: what is vinegar?? (we feed the TCA via acetate) What is lemon and orange juice? What is grapefruit??

    On the metabolic testing it mentioined about AKG..What significance would that have?

    Thats alpha ketoglutaric acid, and its interrconverted by a special biochemical cycle shunt from glutamine in brain.

    Glutamine in brain is a key source of energy. Nice if it works right. It can build up and be excitotoxic when GABA and taurine are tanked. As in your case, eh??

    And that, my friend, is the kicker behind your unhappy gut.

    >Low citric acid, low gluthione, glycine pathway is weak. What other labs offer this. i am going to have nutritional anayalsis ran by spectracell to see what vitamins i am missing and then supplements accordingly instead of shot gunning high dosages.

    I found a lab online, I think I might have mentioned it in OTBs thread. Otherwise I have to go look for it again.

    Glycine is helped by TMG (trimethylglycine).

    >Does it matter what brand i use for magnesium citrate any one that you recommend?

    Nope, its all reagent grade, I would use NOW, bulk 8 oz, just because its cheap and they are reliable, you can throw it in water and suck it down.

    >Testosrone is in the shitter 200 vs normal 900. using test creme now
    Could that put a damper on protein synthesis?

    Yeah, its blocking protein synthesis.

    You get leucine and BCAAs and you start using 'em, OK? Also HMB.
    Might as well get that protein synthesis going and slow down proteolysis (which you are using for energy), while the inositol mix starts up the TSH-LH armature in pituitary and thyroid to push your adrenals and testes into test production.

    capice? This is kinda nice how it fits together.

    Forskolin, later. Not now, not until we get liver looking better. eh?

    >Wouldn't balancing the thyroid and adrenals raise the testosterone ?
    dhea is mid normal but I have been supplementing with 50 mgs a day
    pregneolone was super low and i found correlation that low pregnelone is related to hypothyroidism GO FIGURE.

    Yeah, it helps to supply the right pathway. We're going MUCH higher on the ladder of chain of command, so at some point, your test and preg supplemention should be superflurous (we hope).

    >I am taking super digestiver enyzme from NOW as well 2 with a meal, i also add a digestive gold in there as well just incase

    What the hell is digestive gold?? The super enzyme is good enough. Don't add anything else yet, OK?

    >Yes increasing fiber slowly especially insoluable kind. Stool are mush !! not formed. Colon feels dehyrated and that I do not have the energy to push.

    Yeah, the fiber will help a ton, as weill slowing adding vegetables and more protein to your diet. Slow and easy, though, on fiber...you gut needs to get used to it.

    I think we might just start programming your gut microflora next. One thing at time.

    Nice to know that I seem to be calling your issues accurately...and I got some tricks up my sleeve, some shared here already, that should be very helpful to you and to a number of others who have similar problems.

    >Yes i am using selenium methylcysteine from jarrow, but my multivitamin i take from metagenics has it in asparate form instead. total is 400 mcgs a day

    Next time, get the methionine form instead. This is tricky..I think you should stay at 400, but you may need to bump it up. It bioconcentrates, and that makes me uneasy about recommending more. Sit tight on what you using, its what the Mayo Clinic recommends for adult males.

    >Could one be insulin resistance even though blood profile does not refect it? such low hdl, elevated ldh, elevated LDL, ect.

    Duh. Cholesterol metabolism is controlled by insulin. Too much, and you get your profile.

    T4 to T3 is an enzyme reaction.

    TMG will down regulate insulin surging. Side bonus, and the glucuronic pathway nudge (with the lactone) will help energy (TCA workaround) and help with insulin sensitivity as well.

    The enzyme expression is regulated by free fatty acids --> yours are high, and its blocking conversion of T4.

    Fix your liver, kid. Inositol plus the other supps we talked about, will bring it back online eventually. See? Liver doens't work right, key biological lipids produced in the liver get out of balance, and they run much of the big picture mechanics at the gene activating level, through nuclear receptors -throughout the body. I talk about this on other forums in quite a bit of detail that would go sailing over heads here. We'll use the practical ends of molecular biology and biochemisry to get your health back again.

    Sound like a plan, HAN?
    Last edited by Trouble; 05-23-2006 at 10:57 AM.

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    So basically problem is clogged up liver and dyfunctioinal HPA affecting the hormonal cascade as well as mitochondrion (krebs cycle)

    To summerize

    1. clear out the liver by increasing my methylation with samme, TMG. This should jump start gluthione production as well in the liver. The subligual form of methylcobalmin with folonic acids is going to activate the methionne synthase which is going to convert homocystein generated from the samme back into methionne. This should also help serotonin levels and melatonin as well and balance other neurotransmitters
    2. prevent glutemine from going to glutemate by replacing taurine, gabba. This should also help heal leaky gut if present by increasing glutemine supply
    3. With the inositol mixture we are going to help jumpstart the HPA (top of the ladder) as well as help methlyation
    4 by clearing the liver this will help to increase the conversion from t-4 to t-3 as well as to clear the used hormones out. HMMMM could the deactivated hormones of t-3 floating arounf be blocking the receptors for new t-3 to use?


    You are right again about homocysteine was being shutted into cysteine pathway vs being recycled back to methione metabolic testing should cysteine, serine, and taurine were in normal ranges and the supplements they were recommending your folic acid and b-12 not b-6. Again metabolic testing showed low methionne levels go figure LOL

    To verify my serum b-12,P5P,folic acid where 1000 times the highest range!! This worries me alot. No one could give me an explanation other then I found
    Small bacterial overgrowth for elevated folic acid, but a low b-12 would be present. i found elevated serum b-12 is indicated in increased heart disease as well. i also found that this is related to liver dyfunction (DUH) This concerns me about drs not following up to find reason why

    B-6 is fucking something up because my serum P5P is elvevated off the charts , but in metabolic testing it is deficient this is pretty much with all of my b vitamins. Zinc deficinecy could be behind this because it breaks helps remove the phosphate. i found this in nut gov't data base. I have been taking alot of zinc but its the ATP that helps carry it over intestinally,

    Would taking zinc gluconate tabs get around this at all since it sublingual form?

    Actually my blood profile is opposite i was making a statement that can one be insuline resistant not having that profile?

    My profile shows that of low insulin just the opposite that is what is puzzling
    I have low cholesterol, low LDH, low ldl, normal HDL, elevated bilirubin, high anion gap, low alkaline phosphotase, low WBC, low neutrophills, LOW homocysteine, elevated albumin if this helps

    REsults verified by metabolic test where
    elevated sarcosine, carnosine, enzymes related to zinc difficency for protein digestion, all low Essential amino acids,low gabba, glutemine, Gofigure


    Where do you get glucuronic acid lactone. i have some thing call calcium d-glutarate is that the same?

    Yes something is going on with my blood sugar i tested and ate a 50-75 grams of carbs from baked potatoes glucose went from 86 to175 in an hour and then after 3 hours was only 135? could this be from lack of insulin due to liver congestion

    Yes I have been using 2 TBSP of organic apple cider vinegar a day so that porbably helping in the krebs cycles if its getting in there in the first place.

    supplememet review
    samme 400 MGS BID (20 minutes before meals) with TMG 1000 mgs BID
    inositol mixture breaks down to how mgs? per 2-3 times a day roughly.
    gabba,magnesium, taurine = 500 mgs of each 2-3 times a day approximately
    BCAAS 2-3 times a day moderate dosages
    glutemine may be 5 -10 grams a day for now
    Back of the b-6 so homocysteine could be recylced back to methionne
    HMB
    not going to touch foreskins or long jack yet untill you suggest when
    i am currently taking probiotic omh -12 3 before bed time no more


    What about phosphodyl choline is it necessary or just the inostiol should be enough?

    When you mentioin bile acids is this also meaning bile production as well?

    Could zinc deficiency be also caused by lacking thyroid. i read few articles saying that zinc and other minerals may not rise untill 2-3 month lag time of balanced thyroid? are you familar with this

    Would you recommending going to an immunologist to see if there is possible a hidden infection affecting my immune system just to rule out the possbility of extra metabolic stress.

    i am going to conquer this !!
    Last edited by hardasnails1973; 05-23-2006 at 12:41 PM.

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    what are your free fatty acids like - from liver lipid panel?

    High, low, what.

    Zinc gluconate plus ascorbate (losenges) I Herb.com

    glurcuronic acid lactone - Bulk Nutrition

    You had one hell of blood glucose spike. 138 afterwards..holy shit. You don't have insulin deficiency, but you might have a pancreas that isn't working well due to glutathione and methy groups being exceptionally low.

    Do you use whey protein drinks?

    mito function is fucked - you're not transporting factors in worth beans. Thats because TCA is so screwed up I guess. Try one tablespoon of vinegar before each meal, 10-12 minutes. Well after you use ALA and TMG.

    Kinda interesting you can walk around...energy metabolism is certainly not functioning correctly.

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    Low triglycerids, low cholesterol, low ldh, normal HDL, glucose 84, inuslin fasting 1.75 (0-20), high Mch high MCHC, low platelets, low WBC, RDW low, co2 normal, bilirubin elevated,

    i am not metabolising SHIT !! and all metabolic enzymes of protein, carbs and fats are at dead even same low level showing hypometabolism !!

    is there a way to post lab test here so you could view ?

    i was thinking of a glucose tolerace test good idea? i have metformin here but I want to check lactic acid levels first in serum before messing with any thing else.. actually I got so much going on do not need more variables added to the mix. its all just bandaid not the root cause.

    LDH isoenzyme test would be nice would not it LOL

    I AM FUCKED !!! no wonder not converting to t-3 and other factors
    ZRT LABS 24 hour cortisol results

    dhea 41 ranges 3-10
    morning 1.7 ( 3-8)
    12 pm .5 ( 2-4)
    4 pm .2 ( 1-2)
    bed time .2 (.5 - 1.5)

    No wonder my digestion and immune system is FUCKED !!! no cortisol

    Yes take whey protein isolates - stay away from casien based due to possible allergies.
    Last edited by hardasnails1973; 05-23-2006 at 04:57 PM.

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    Blood lipids are low. Cholesterol synthesis is blocked.

    Bile acids - nonconjugated are high in liver (high bilirubin) --> liver dysfunction, Gilbert's Syndrome?? (benign, non life threatening)..watch out for liver cleansing herbs - stay far away. I helped someone here when I first joined who had this problem and when the solublized bile acid load his his brain, he had lasting damage for many months afterwards. I seem to recall a scratching of heads at my read of the situation - a very odd case.

    Low insulin. You don't release enough - hypoglycemic for another reason. Whoa. Doctor say anything about diabetes (adult onset) to you??

    G:I is 48 --> not likely to be insulin insensitive

    > high MCHC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_co..._concentration

    Cold agglutination OR excess iron

    Pretty undernourished for sure. Low platelet count. Low immune factors.
    So much is down...operating at bare minimum

    i am not metabolising SHIT !! and all metabolic enzymes of protein, carbs and fats are at dead even same low level showing hypometabolism !!

    The acetic acid and citric acid will help slow release of food. You will have to eat more meals,

    > there a way to post lab test here so you could view ?

    I don't provide that kind of service here, HAN.

    http://web2.airmail.net/uthman/lab_test.html

    > was thinking of a glucose tolerace test good idea? i have metformin here but I want to check lactic acid levels first in serum before messing with any thing else.. actually I got so much going on do not need more variables added to the mix. its all just bandaid not the root cause.

    No sir, you have the OPPOSITE problem, you may be borderline diabetic. Do not touch that Metformin.

    >LDH isoenzyme test would be nice would not it LOL

    Other liver enzymes would be nice as well.

    be very careful to avoid hypoglycemia using the supps and dietary approach advocated. You need to actually induce insulin production, to drive glucose metabolism and fatty acids synthesis and glycogen storage.

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    Hardasnails, dude, what has caused all these problems? Did the originate from anabolics somehow?
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

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    Big D i had not been on steroids for 9 months prior to this bullshit. Before i stated dieting i had blood test and dr praised me he had not scene one this healthy in over 10 years. after contest My immune system was down from dieting and starving my self, overtraining and like a jackass i listen to people and went back to eating normal (higher sugar intake due to it was the holidays so I indulged. i had not had sugar in my system for almost over a year !! my diet was so strict cheat meal was chicken parm once every 2 weeks and when I shifted back to eatin "normal" it shocked my already immune sytem and this is a none fact. i bet if I check my blood sugar over a 6 month peroid now it would be high because of low insulin out put from many reasons. during week before getting sick they were spraying chemicals at work in the bathrooms and after 3 days I started noticing brain fog, spacey out and getting head aches. They eventually moved me. I have always been chemical sensitive. Then I ate about 100 pieces of sushi with weaken immune system got sick went to dr. Told him what i ate he told me bacterial infection do not happen to healthy people and then few days latter my stomach turned red and temperature started to drop like a rock starting shivering and turning ghost white. I had altered bowel movements that they labels to being in my head but in reality it was chain reaction of the intestinal infection altered digestion and then the hormonal cascade went from their


    "Bile acids - nonconjugated are high in liver (high bilirubin) --> liver dysfunction, Gilbert's Syndrome?? (benign, non life threatening)..watch out for liver cleansing herbs - stay far away. I helped someone here when I first joined who had this problem and when the solublized bile acid load his his brain, he had lasting damage for many months afterwards. I seem to recall a scratching of heads at my read of the situation - a very odd case."

    BINGO !!! I have been taken milk thisltel, dandiolion, artichoke mixture not knowin, explains elevated bilirubin and my yellow appearance that no one could see except the one dr and took a picture !! Thats been stopped!! Also you mentioined gilberts and SAMME is used to help that if I remember correctly? I had elevated iron at the time but now its normal again

    other liver enzyme Sgot, GGt, ALT all dead mid ranges
    albumin was elevated slightly, iron was high normal - BEt you from liver cleansing herbs, ferritin dropped from 135 to 85 in 4 months
    kidney functions all normal but at the low normal range due to protein deficiency

    would balancing thyroid/adrenals help regulate insulin levels ?
    i agree I have all opposite signs of insulin resistance. Could sore feet explain possible blood sugar problems. And insulin drive nutrients into the cell .mmmmm could there be a connection. Get this to correct an arachonic acid deficiency the treat ment of course is insulin how ironic?

    How severe will the insulin dyfunction affect nutrient uptake in the cell?
    All my urine test showed low to no creatine in them !! no it was not getting uptake into the cell and metabolized...hmmm lack of insulin again

    liver profile show low sulfate levels and is it correct you need sulfur and proteins to make insulin?

    inositol you recommended is noted to help diabetes as well so that is a good thing.

    Decreased serum alkaline phosphatase may not be clinically significant. However, decreased serum levels have been observed in hypothyroidism, scurvy, kwashiokor, NO SHIT !!

    Increased serum anion gap reflects the presence of unmeasured anions, as in uremia (phosphate, sulfate), diabetic ketoacidosis (theres possbile mention of diabetes)!!

    Carbs right now are all low glycemic.Dr wanted me to eat 1 potatoe a day have not been doing that instead of eating yams and lower glycemic veggies
    her diet she had me on was more like a ketogenic diet to suppress blood and insulin levels. So in current stage eating a balanced diet of protein , low glycemic carbs, fats is best to do?


    You can thank the drs for fucking me up for not taking care of a simple intestinal infection from contaminated food !! That was the start of all this bull shit. i know for a fact it was infection stomach was bright red 4 days later and hot to the touch but immune system was to run to down from dieting, chemical exposures at work, general, stress , and training to combat it..

    i got more samme so starting 400 mgs 2 times a day and staying there

    Doesn;t insulin raise cortisol levels or is it vice versa ?

    What other blood test would be appropiate
    Ha1bgc - glucose test over time
    methioine synthase - would indicat how fucked up my methylation is and methycobolin deficiency
    Ldh isoenzymes
    Free t3 and free t4
    CBC
    metabolic panel
    insulin free and fasting
    any others you can recommend i have good insurance but running out fast !!
    Last edited by hardasnails1973; 05-23-2006 at 07:09 PM.

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    OK...

    We already talked about how we can use the inositol to bring pituitary, thyroid and adrenals back on line. That will help with test and also paradoxically with liver function and lipid metabolism. It should bring fatty acid metabolism, plus TCA back on line as well, but you need the intermediates too.

    S = taurine, cysteine, methionone, sam-e, we bring up methylation and glutathione, and that will help GABA, but you're taking some as well.

    Remember, fucked up GABA, means NMDA problems. You might want to try choline and also ALCAR, carnitine is another reducing equivalent you're not making, and it should help with the gastric emptying and pancreas (as will the taurine).

    You're going to start taking slower release carbs with your protein shakes, and you're use protein shakes to help mend your gut.

    Sounds backwards, trust me on this one. You need to be evaluated for diabetes, adult onset, insulin-requiring. This may be temporary, or not even a very big issue, if cortisol comes back up again, insulin may as well.

    I don't think you need a whole lot of tests. More patience and maybe giving my current set of recommendations a try.

    You're already headed in the right direction.

    Sure you had that gut infection, but HAN, it wasn't the core reason for whats happened, that was a secondary effect set up by conditions of diet and altered body morphology, which you went after the hard way for sure.

    Looking back, pointing fingers won't help. If you're still thinkng you have an infection issue, add cordyceps to your list and start taking it.

    Otherwise, I think we got most of the bases covered.

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