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  1. #1
    happy sumo
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    Question Sleep and recovery






    Ok, lets say I sleep 6 hours at night, then get a 1-2 hour nap during the day.. will I recover just as well if I slept 7-8hrs straight at night?
    P-side Inc.

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  2. #2
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    No.

    Sleep induced recovery means that the brain shuts down to a low idle, and much needed repairs take place during down time - this happens between hours 4 and 7, the first few hours are for data sorting, processing and storage, and the last for forging new associations, a sort of internal learning and integration of knowledge, for which a slow awakening of certain parts of your brain are necessary. This coincides with the rise in autocrine function as the body prepares for the business of survival for another day.

    Naps temporarily provide energy by shutting down drain on low supplies. Thats all. Once you pass out of the early stages of sleep into deeper sleep in a long nap, you confuse and disrupt important internal clock processes.

    This is not a good practice. I can't recommend it, Premier, as neuromuscular fatigue is associated with a higher baseline of stress hormone. Normally, this is due to the accumulation of oxidative damage (wear and tear) from simple living and hard training for extended periods. Not so in the case of missed sleep. This is the disturbance of fundamental nighly repairs. Once the cells are damaged beyond a certain point (as they are, in chronic sleep deprivation), they cannot be repaired.

    You have only so many cell divisions. In order for higher order creatures, like humans, to survive to have long natural lives, our bodies must be very parsimonious (hang on tightly to our cells), and so we have clever repair and defense mechanisms.

    Each one of these mechanisms is disabled when we short cut our sleep. There is no real recovery and repair under these circumstances. Furthermore, sleep is the golden key for growth hormone release. Its pulsate, and its minions, IGF-1 and other anabolic hypertrophic factors, are being tuned to do their cellular best at about the time you are cutting sleep off...

    In other words, it promotes accelerated aging. I can tick off other issues, like faulty blood sugar control and appetite management..need I really say more?

    I think not.

  3. #3
    happy sumo
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    Thanks for the insight.. I work long hours, so I tend to sleep 6 or so hours at night, then nap in the mid day. Looks like I will just have to try and get more sleep.
    P-side Inc.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Ok, lets say I sleep 6 hours at night, then get a 1-2 hour nap during the day.. will I recover just as well if I slept 7-8hrs straight at night?
    No.

  5. #5
    Anti-mediocrity
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Thanks for the insight.. I work long hours, so I tend to sleep 6 or so hours at night, then nap in the mid day. Looks like I will just have to try and get more sleep.
    Its very easy to run into this situation. In recent surveys by sleep physiologists, the vast majority of the chronotype (sleep preference type) for people who function (have the most energy) at night - so called night owls - is determined by work hours.

    But, the reasons of personal preference for people working these jobs, outside of small pay differential, is more obscure. It appears to arise from unusual changes in the hypopituitary portion of the brain, often manifesting early in life (the colicky baby who easily stays up late, is one example) - and it results in unnatural patterns of stress hormone release throught the day and on into evening.

    However, even "lark" or morning chronotype people like myself can make changes in daily living patterns that contribute towards an adoption of "night owl" preference over time. It only took about 3 or 4 months, in my case, of working extended hours, often late at night.

    As they say, "been there, done that", Premier.

  6. #6
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    This could have been useful when I was competing because during my lunch hour i would go in the first aid room with lights off and take a good 30 minute snooze and i would wake up usually by my own snoring LOL. So in the short term it was a quick fix gave me great energy, however over the long term could have been more detrimental. I was always under the impression cat naps were always good obviously I have been mistaken for many years. Amazing how we have been miss lead for so many years..

  7. #7
    Anti-mediocrity
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    HAN, you twist my words again, but not deliberately I think.

    Let me clarify:

    As a temporary stop gap (not daily), for the occasional missed nights sleep (anxiety, illness, extenuating circumstances), short naps (cat naps are OK).

    Longer sleep, 1 or more hours, not good --> disturbs sleep cycling

    Chronic reliance on naps mid-day is a bad idea --> its stop gap, not a replacement for missed sleep at night --> sign of elevated cortisol tail, blunted peak and elevated night time cortisol --> can lead to adrenal insufficiency --> can result in hypopituitary / hpogonadal issues in adult years

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble
    HAN, you twist my words again, but not deliberately I think.

    Let me clarify:

    As a temporary stop gap (not daily), for the occasional missed nights sleep (anxiety, illness, extenuating circumstances), short naps (cat naps are OK).

    Longer sleep, 1 or more hours, not good --> disturbs sleep cycling

    Chronic reliance on naps mid-day is a bad idea --> its stop gap, not a replacement for missed sleep at night --> sign of elevated cortisol tail, blunted peak and elevated night time cortisol --> can lead to adrenal insufficiency --> can result in hypopituitary / hpogonadal issues in adult years
    I know i have a bad habit of doing that but the last part of the chain events looks all too familar ..kind of like deja vu.

  9. #9
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    Yes, you have this hypopituuitary/hypogonadal issue...

    and do so a whole heck of a lot of adults..now, many young adults as well.

  10. #10
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    So what has to be done in order for americans to understand this? I guess it will have to take either a famous head of state or some high profile athlete or movie star to fall prey to it before something is done. What has society become nothing but a bunch of robots and numbers. I guess the days of pioneer of free thinking are history.

  11. #11
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    *sarcastic tone*

    Maybe the current health crisis and the thought of having a hefty percentage of our population on $600+/month chronic symptom supression medication will be incentive enough...

    Or maybe not. We are inured to the "just in time" mentality.

    Why fix today what you can put off until tommow?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble
    *sarcastic tone*

    Maybe the current health crisis and the thought of having a hefty percentage of our population on $600+/month chronic symptom supression medication will be incentive enough...

    Or maybe not. We are inured to the "just in time" mentality.

    Why fix today what you can put off until tommow?
    I love one day to see orthomolecular medicine and traditional medicine combine to work together to give people a better quality of life, but your better off seeing hell freeze over first.

    In a perfect world one could see the usrda revamp for higher nutritional needs of vitamins and nutrients. if I remember right the daily allowance of Mg in canada is 600 mgs vs our 320? and with this new standards in place. an indept nutritional profile at the tissue level would be part of a person bi annual check up. From the results of the test then the drug companies could produce a supplement based on the individual needs. This would not be a curall but rather strong preventative measure. During the check up the dr would emphaisis stress modification and offer lifestyle changes NOT PAXIL. We can all dream right..

    Check email trouble sent you something that might interests you

  13. #13
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    Beyond the Cutting Edge

    If I look back over my shoulder, I can just see the tiny figures at the forefront of orthomolecular medicine. I am a bit farther along in the comprehension of cause, although there is synergy with treatment and prevention.

  14. #14
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    So is it just myth that we need less sleep as we get older? You hear a lot of older folks claim this. Does that have something to do with diminishing Growth Hormone production as we age. The body is doing less cellular repair and as a result less sleep is the outcome?


    From what I gather: "“Early to bed and early to rise, Makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise” still rings as true today as it ever did.
    Last edited by Gordo; 07-25-2006 at 02:40 PM.

  15. #15
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    More likely, lifestyle factors depresses growth hormone output beyond typical age-related reduction. But there are also issues: increased tendency towards intestinal (upper and lower) GI, a direct result of shitty diet lacking in fruits and vegetables and enriched in the wrong fats and high in carbs, with lower to nil fiber. This causes a reduction in the efficiency of food ingestion and uptake, and that leads to deficiency in key enzymes and micronutrients necessary for melatonin production. This curtails sleep. Lifestyle also engenders an increase in cortisol, which can become a factor in what we called Advanced sleep phase syndrome (ASPS), very common in those with hypogonadal issues (low hGH), low thyroid - the elderly and peri- and post menopausal women.

    Note that a sedentary lifetyle is also closely associated with sleep cycle disorders and reduced growth hormone output; the two are coupled by integrated brain and liver chemistry cycles.

  16. #16
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    Good question Premier. Sometimes I am simply not able to get sufficient sleep in one fell swoop. Anyone else who is or was a personal trainer knows the fucked up hours you have to work to make it.

    I don't get home until 10:30 most nights of the week, and sometimes I have to be awake at 4:30 the next morning, 5:30 at the latest. I am usually asleep by 11:30, so I grab 5 hours, 6 if I'm lucky, but I definitely need a 1-3 hour nap mid day if that happens or I just feel like shit.

    To make up for it, I don't work mornings Tuesday and Thursday. Those days I get a cool 8 hours of sleep, and sometimes a bit more. I don't think I could handle this schedule otherwise.

    I do try and get some decent sleep (7+ hours a night) on the weekends too. So, usually 3 days a week I get sleep in 2 parts, and the other 4 I get a solid bout of sleep in one session. Do you think this is a reasonable way to combat the odd hours I have to work?
    The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing...

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  17. #17
    Elite Kiki
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowPimp
    Good question Premier. Sometimes I am simply not able to get sufficient sleep in one fell swoop. Anyone else who is or was a personal trainer knows the fucked up hours you have to work to make it.

    I don't get home until 10:30 most nights of the week, and sometimes I have to be awake at 4:30 the next morning, 5:30 at the latest. I am usually asleep by 11:30, so I grab 5 hours, 6 if I'm lucky, but I definitely need a 1-3 hour nap mid day if that happens or I just feel like shit.

    To make up for it, I don't work mornings Tuesday and Thursday. Those days I get a cool 8 hours of sleep, and sometimes a bit more. I don't think I could handle this schedule otherwise.

    I do try and get some decent sleep (7+ hours a night) on the weekends too. So, usually 3 days a week I get sleep in 2 parts, and the other 4 I get a solid bout of sleep in one session. Do you think this is a reasonable way to combat the odd hours I have to work?

    You may have to do the best you can until you can work your way out of the situation. If you are still making gains, and are keeping relatively sane, then don't stress. Although I'm sure Trouble will mention it's screwing you circadian rythm up. I believe that can be fixed when the time is right though.


    Sincerely,

    BigD
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDyl
    You may have to do the best you can until you can work your way out of the situation. If you are still making gains, and are keeping relatively sane, then don't stress. Although I'm sure Trouble will mention it's screwing you circadian rythm up. I believe that can be fixed when the time is right though.


    Sincerely,

    BigD
    I don't have a circadian rhythm. The times I goto sleep and wake up are totally different depending on which day of the week it is, and not necessarily consistent from week to week.

    Ever since I started exercising again I can adjust my sleeping habits to any situation very well. I used to have trouble falling asleep sometimes too; now that is very rare.
    The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing...

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  19. #19
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    I'll be back tomorrow to answer this thread. I think we need to chat about sleep phasing and its physiology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble
    I'll be back tomorrow to answer this thread. I think we need to chat about sleep phasing and its physiology.


    You work too hard. Take a break. Get a massage or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  21. #21
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    Thank, D, for the thoughtful recommendation. I did just that - took a break on Saturday to go hear excellent jazz at a semi-local jazz fest. I did a little on line work yesterday morning and evening, but managed to get in some relaxation and a useful trip to stock up on supplies, while enjoying unseasonably cool conditions.

    Sure wish I could get that massage; touch therapy has manyfold benefits. Beg pardon for my delay in replying to your missives (needed the break this past weekend).

  22. #22
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    Very true getting away from the computer for a few days really helps calm my mind and relieve alittle stress.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble
    Thank, D, for the thoughtful recommendation. I did just that - took a break on Saturday to go hear excellent jazz at a semi-local jazz fest. I did a little on line work yesterday morning and evening, but managed to get in some relaxation and a useful trip to stock up on supplies, while enjoying unseasonably cool conditions.

    Sure wish I could get that massage; touch therapy has manyfold benefits. Beg pardon for my delay in replying to your missives (needed the break this past weekend).
    No worries. In my case, there isn't really much I can do about it anyway.
    The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing...

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  24. #24
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    Read this and this, and while you're at it, read and this one too.

    Sorry, I'm known to be a bit wordy; I have no intention of pasting up all the info here. It will take you a while to read and digest that information. Let me know when you have chomped your way thru them; I'll answer questions. Indole nutritional biochemistry leads into tryptophan biochemistry in liver and brain. They're all connected to stress/cortisol regulation, via the hGH regulatory cascade and GABA/glutathione imbalances.

    Any chance you like to do your cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning?

    Rules of Engagement:

    There is no such thing as catching up on sleep.

    Sleeping in on the weekends is bad karma for cortisol controls.

    Tradeoffs for adequate rest are NOT an option. Need to find ways to fix your schedule. Don't say you can't do it; you can.
    Last edited by Trouble; 07-31-2006 at 08:58 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble
    Tradeoffs for adequate rest are NOT an option. Need to find ways to fix your schedule. Don't say you can't do it; you can.
    I really can't, unless I want to take a paycut (Absolutely cannot happen). It is impossible for me to get home from my last client with sufficient time to get a good night's sleep even if I went to sleep immediately after getting home. It's only a couple nights a week though.
    The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing...

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    Oh, and I never do fasted cardio. It's practically pointless in my opinion.
    The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PreMier
    Ok, lets say I sleep 6 hours at night, then get a 1-2 hour nap during the day.. will I recover just as well if I slept 7-8hrs straight at night?
    It's still good to get the rest. Even a 30 minute nap helps...
    May the Lord Jesus Christ bless those who bless me as I gladly accept their blessings, and curse those who curse me all the while protecting me for any evils. In Christ name, amen...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFlex
    It's still good to get the rest. Even a 30 minute nap helps...

    Untrue.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  29. #29
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    is taking a melatonin supplement at night before bed a bad thing? I find it is one of the only things that helps me to fall asleep and actually stay asleep throughout the entire night. I just don't want to wind up depending on taking it every night to sleep and then suffering negative effects of it somewhere down the road...

  30. #30
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    Oh, sorry.



    Nice exchange of information, guys.

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