A True Libertarian

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  1. #1
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    A True Libertarian

    Here is the best Libertarian summary exposition on the Bush Administration's grievous lawlessness that I have seen:

    Bush’s Defeated Foe: US Civil Liberty

    by Paul Craig Roberts
    by Paul Craig Roberts

    DIGG THIS
    George Orwell warned us, but what American would have expected that in the opening years of the 21st century the United States would become a country in which lies and deception by the President and Vice President were the basis for a foreign policy of war and aggression, and in which indefinite detention without charges, torture, and spying on citizens without warrants have displaced the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution?

    If anyone had predicted that the election of George W. Bush to the presidency would result in an American police state and illegal wars of aggression, he would have been dismissed as a lunatic.

    What American ever would have thought that any US president and attorney general would defend torture or that a Republican Congress would pass a bill legalizing torture by the executive branch and exempting the executive branch from the Geneva Conventions?

    What American ever would have expected the US Congress to accept the president’s claim that he is above the law?

    What American could have imagined that if such crimes and travesties occurred, nothing would be done about them and that the media and opposition party would be largely silent?

    Except for a few columnists, who are denounced by "conservatives" as traitors for defending the Bill of Rights, the defense of US civil liberty has been limited to the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch. The few federal judges who have refused to genuflect before the Bush police state are denounced by attorney general Alberto Gonzales as a "grave threat" to US security. Vice president Richard Cheney called a federal judge’s ruling against the Bush regime’s illegal and unconstitutional warrantless surveillance program "an indefensible act of judicial overreaching."

    Brainwashed "conservatives" are so accustomed to denouncing federal judges for "judicial activism" that Cheney’s charge of overreach goes down smoothly. Vast percentages of the American public are simply unconcerned that their liberty can be revoked at the discretion of a police or military officer and that they can be held without evidence, trial or access to attorney and tortured until they confess to whatever charge their torturers wish to impose.

    Americans believe that such things can only happen to "real terrorists," despite the overwhelming evidence that most of the Bush regime’s detainees have no connections to terrorism.

    When these points are made to fellow citizens, the reply is usually that "I’m doing nothing wrong. I have nothing to fear."

    Why, then, did the Founding Fathers write the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
    American liberties are the result of an 800 year struggle by the English people to make law a shield of the people instead of a weapon in the hands of government. For centuries English speaking peoples have understood that governments cannot be trusted with unaccountable power. If the Founding Fathers believed it was necessary to tie down a very weak and limited central government with the Constitution and Bill of Rights, these protections are certainly more necessary now that our government has grown in size, scope and power beyond the imagination of the Founding Fathers.

    But, alas, "law and order conservatives" have been brainwashed for decades that civil liberties are unnecessary interferences with the ability of police to protect us from criminals. Americans have forgotten that we need protection from government more than we need protection from criminals. Once we cut down civil liberty so that police may better pursue criminals and terrorists, where do we stand when government turns on us?

    This is the famous question asked by Sir Thomas More in the play, A Man for All Seasons. The answer is that we stand naked, unprotected by law. It is an act of the utmost ignorance and stupidity to assume that only criminals and terrorists will stand unprotected.

    Americans should be roused to fury that attorney general Alberto Gonzales and vice president Cheney have condemned the defense of American civil liberty as "a grave threat to US security." This blatant use of an orchestrated and propagandistic fear to create a "national security" wedge against the Bill of Rights is an impeachable offense.

    Mark my words, the future of civil liberty in the US depends on the impeachment and conviction of Bush, Cheney, and Gonzales.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts183.html

    Lew Rockwell.com rocks as they say.

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    You'll have nothing to fear if you obey everything the government tells you to obey, do not question authority and do not be an individual it takes team work to subjugate a liberal constitution...
    Coarse edged youth, the irish pendants string from their smiles
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    no sign of despair in their hair, nor their hearts
    but oh they have yet to be experienced and that makes aging so very worth it...ML circa2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniclion View Post
    You'll have nothing to fear if you obey everything the government tells you to obey, do not question authority and do not be an individual it takes team work to subjugate a liberal constitution...
    Precisely.

    I have yet to see legitimate counterarguments to anything in the article. Opponents usually rely on emotional, non-substantive arguments like:
    • The terrorists will do anything to kill us all, they won't stop
    • Our very existence is at stake
    • I have nothing to hide so why should I worry?
    • Civil Liberties are fine in times of peace but an obstruction when we are at war
    • You're either with us or against us
    Those are but a few.

    Now is not the time to get complacent. Now is the time to press even harder for accountability from the criminal Bush administration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    I have yet to see legitimate counterarguments to anything in the article. Opponents usually rely on emotional, non-substantive arguments like:
    There is no good reason for striping the US citizens of their basic rights. However, people, such as yourself, need to shut up when the next attack comes and people die (possibly by the thousands). Sadly, you cannot have both basic rights and absolute safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    Now is not the time to get complacent. Now is the time to press even harder for accountability from the criminal Bush administration.
    I hope your this passionate when the next administration gets in and does more of the same (no matter which party wins).


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    Precisely.

    I have yet to see legitimate counterarguments to anything in the article. Opponents usually rely on emotional, non-substantive arguments like:
    • The terrorists will do anything to kill us all, they won't stop
    • Our very existence is at stake
    • I have nothing to hide so why should I worry?
    • Civil Liberties are fine in times of peace but an obstruction when we are at war
    • You're either with us or against us
    Those are but a few.

    Now is not the time to get complacent. Now is the time to press even harder for accountability from the criminal Bush administration.

    I agree with you as usualy decker, but what are the democrats solution? They sure don't seem to be doing anythign about it as usual.
    Fucking Determined!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
    I agree with you as usualy decker, but what are the democrats solution? They sure don't seem to be doing anythign about it as usual.
    Out of all the people on this forum, you're the only that I believe has no political affiliation.


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    Hehe, my opinions are usually radical. There aren't enough people like me to form a like-minded movement to get anywhere.


    People who hate people come together....NO!!!
    Fucking Determined!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    There is no good reason for striping the US citizens of their basic rights. However, people, such as yourself, need to shut up when the next attack comes and people die (possibly by the thousands). Sadly, you cannot have both basic rights and absolute safety.

    See, this is what I'm talking about.

    We're all gonna die, so line up and surrender those civil liberties immediately.

    sorry...but that is so weak and sniveling.

    Our country exists for freedom and civil liberties. There is danger always present in protecting what is worthwhile.

    Don't let fear win!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
    I agree with you as usualy decker, but what are the democrats solution? They sure don't seem to be doing anythign about it as usual.
    The democrats don't assume power until 2007.

    Frankly, I'm not concerned with the democrats at the moment. But Bush's crimes are a clear and present danger to our way of life.

    If ever there was a constitutional crisis in this country, it is now--the lawlessness of the Bush Administration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    See, this is what I'm talking about.

    We're all gonna die, so line up and surrender those civil liberties immediately.

    sorry...but that is so weak and sniveling.

    Our country exists for freedom and civil liberties. There is danger always present in protecting what is worthwhile.

    Don't let fear win!
    Retarded much?

    I said that I agree with you. I also said that I don't want to hear the whining about "someone dropping the ball" when people die.

    Freedom is way more important than safety. I mean, sure you can be absolutely safe, but what kind of life would you have?


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    Quote Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
    People who hate people come together....NO!!!
    Nation of Islam?


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    The more freedoms you strip from an American the more angry the Militias become, it's my feelings that the next terror attack will be from domestic terrorists like Tim McVeigh...you see you can't win either way...
    Coarse edged youth, the irish pendants string from their smiles
    not yet plucked as to slacken the seams
    and drag down the features of age,
    no folds or creases from unkempt wear
    eyes of tranquilty, crystalline-beads
    no sign of despair in their hair, nor their hearts
    but oh they have yet to be experienced and that makes aging so very worth it...ML circa2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    Retarded much?

    I said that I agree with you. I also said that I don't want to hear the whining about "someone dropping the ball" when people die.

    Freedom is way more important than safety. I mean, sure you can be absolutely safe, but what kind of life would you have?
    I knew the "sniveling" comment would raise your ire my friend. Forgive me.

    "Dropping the ball" should not be equated with the president and congress violating our Constitutional rights.

    "Dropping the ball" is sitting on your ass for 20 minutes in a Florida classroom doing nothing while the US is under `attack...or ordering US agencies to back off investigating the Saudis...or ignoring a brief entitled, "Bin Laden determined to strike in US"...or ignoring warnings from Germany and spain about impending terrorist attacks.

    But most of all, Dropping the Ball is our president and Congress not upholding their sworn duty to uphold and defend the US Constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    See, this is what I'm talking about.

    We're all gonna die, so line up and surrender those civil liberties immediately.

    sorry...but that is so weak and sniveling.

    Our country exists for freedom and civil liberties. There is danger always present in protecting what is worthwhile.

    Don't let fear win!
    Like I've said many times Bush spells Freedom: FEERDOM
    Coarse edged youth, the irish pendants string from their smiles
    not yet plucked as to slacken the seams
    and drag down the features of age,
    no folds or creases from unkempt wear
    eyes of tranquilty, crystalline-beads
    no sign of despair in their hair, nor their hearts
    but oh they have yet to be experienced and that makes aging so very worth it...ML circa2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniclion View Post
    Like I've said many times Bush spells Freedom: FEERDOM
    I always expect ingenuity from you maniclion and you deliver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    I knew the "sniveling" comment would raise your ire my friend. Forgive me.
    Are you kidding? That's the shit I live for. It gives spice to an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    "Dropping the ball" home should not be equated with violating our Constitutional rights. "Dropping the ball" is (1) sitting on your ass for 20 minutes in a Florida classroom doing nothing while the US is under `attack...or (2) ordering US agencies to back off investigating the Saudis...(3) or ignoring a brief entitled, "Bin Laden determined to strike in US"...or (4) ignoring warnings from Germany and spain about impending terrorist attacks.
    1) At that point it was still unclear if there was an accident or an attack. The only people that can't give this up are people who need to spin everything to look sinister. Which would be you liberals. GWB has done plenty of real shit for you to get worked up over, there's no need to spin shit.

    2) I agree with this one.

    3) Give this shit a rest. It's called, read carefully now..."hindsight". Hell, with hindsight I could win the lotto.

    4) See number 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    But most of all, Dropping the Ball is our president and Congress not upholding their sworn duty to uphold and defend the US Constitution.
    Bingo.


  17. #17
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    Oh, and by the "dropping the ball" comment, I meant that there is no way that we can stop 100% of all attacks. People need to realize this and quit trying to blame people (other than those attacking) for the attacks.

    Which is what you're doing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    Oh, and by the "dropping the ball" comment, I meant that there is no way that we can stop 100% of all attacks. People need to realize this and quit trying to blame people (other than those attacking) for the attacks.

    Which is what you're doing.
    I know. But someone is always to blame.

    Did you have that theory of blame in the Clinton years?

    As an aside, I have dodged so much work today just fucking around here on this forum. Looks like I'll be working two or more days out of the weekend. Hello porn sights. I never learn.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    I know. But someone is always to blame.
    Yeah, but liberals are blaming the wrong people. I've seen countless "news" articles and opinion pieces (pretty much the same thing) blaming Bush, but I've yet to really see one that spends as much effort to blame the Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    Did you have that theory of blame in the Clinton years?
    I only point out that if you're going to blame someone in the US for 9/11, it would be placed on Clinton and not Bush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    As an aside, I have dodged so much work today just fucking around here on this forum. Looks like I'll be working two or more days out of the weekend. Hello porn sights. I never learn.
    Maybe if you're keyboard weren't so sticky...?


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS View Post
    Yeah, but liberals are blaming the wrong people. I've seen countless "news" articles and opinion pieces (pretty much the same thing) blaming Bush, but I've yet to really see one that spends as much effort to blame the Muslims. I only point out that if you're going to blame someone in the US for 9/11, it would be placed on Clinton and not Bush.
    Sorry, Bush was on call when the attacks happened. Jeez, Bush constantly crows about "keeping this country safe"....he sure as shit forgot that dictum in the early months of his administration. The animus for the arab attacks was created long before Clinton took office.
    Quote Originally Posted by DOMS
    Maybe if you're keyboard weren't so sticky...?
    That's last time I ever tell you anything in confidence mister.

    Have a great holiday. I'm leaving early today. My brother's in town.

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    We will spend so much energy trying to protect ourselves from an outside attack and then some nutjob in North Dakota will decide that he's had enough of our government not being constitutional and taking away his online poker and BOOM! There goes a whole chunk of a Chicago city block...
    Coarse edged youth, the irish pendants string from their smiles
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    and drag down the features of age,
    no folds or creases from unkempt wear
    eyes of tranquilty, crystalline-beads
    no sign of despair in their hair, nor their hearts
    but oh they have yet to be experienced and that makes aging so very worth it...ML circa2012

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniclion View Post
    Like I've said many times Bush spells Freedom: FEERDOM
    I feerDOMS.

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