Why can some bands create a good album or hit song...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34
  1. #1
    Elite Kiki
    ELITE MEMBER
    BigDyl's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Securityland
    Posts
    15,728
    Rep Points
    22298690

    Why can some bands create a good album or hit song...

    ...that everyone connects with... yet somehow they can never reproduce the same effect?






    </Vieope>
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  2. #2
    Monochromatic Bunny
    Vieope's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    drinking coffee..
    Posts
    15,084
    Rep Points
    19251541

    Awesome thread but I dont really know the answer.


  3. #3
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDyl View Post
    ...that everyone connects with... yet somehow they can never reproduce the same effect?






    </Vieope>
    They're one-hit-wonders. They have one great idea, but arent creative enough to come up with a second great idea, or they get jaded by the music business and this taints their judgement on what is actually great.

    See: Metallica.
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  4. #4
    Elite Kiki
    ELITE MEMBER
    BigDyl's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Securityland
    Posts
    15,728
    Rep Points
    22298690

    Good answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  5. #5
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDyl View Post
    Good answer.
    Good question.

  6. #6
    Always learning...
    dodgyone's Avatar


    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Guernsey, Channel Islands
    Posts
    109
    Rep Points
    10

    I always like to think that there is a song (or poem) in everybody worthy of being a big hit. Some people find theirs and become one-hit wonders. The long lasting artists are more creatively gifted than the norm so can rise up above this limitation.
    Proteins are good... Fats are good... Carbs are the problem!

  7. #7
    Training Trainer
    ELITE MEMBER
    ponyboy's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Running around somewhere
    Posts
    2,712
    Rep Points
    4100113

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazhole View Post
    They're one-hit-wonders. They have one great idea, but arent creative enough to come up with a second great idea, or they get jaded by the music business and this taints their judgement on what is actually great.

    See: Metallica.
    Metallica has been around for over 20 years with tens of millions of albums sold. I hardly call them one hit wonders. Judgement impaired...maybe.
    Today I can do what others will not so that tomorrow I will do what others cannot.

    The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don't want to do.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    ELITE MEMBER


    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Power Rack
    Posts
    2,303
    Rep Points
    1238818

    Perhaps these bands have used all of their best material and songs with the deepest meaning they have come up with over long periods of time and they get signed for having some good stuff that they may have been writing since high-school.There is pressure to put out a follow up so they don't have the time to put the energy and emotion into it because they are jotting down words that may rhyme but they don't feel them so the heart of the band isn't "in it".The follow up material is probably done in a year or so while the original may have taken several years.

  9. #9
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    Quote Originally Posted by ponyboy View Post
    Metallica has been around for over 20 years with tens of millions of albums sold. I hardly call them one hit wonders. Judgement impaired...maybe.
    No, they fall under the second category (Jaded by the 'biz).

    Though only the one album (Puppets) really "spoke" to me. The two before it were just building up to Puppets, Justice was pretty good but not quite as awesome, and from the Black Album onwards it all went to hell, culminating in St Anger, which is one of the worst "metal" albums ive heard in a while.

    Though Slayer's Christ Illusion comes close in the "Dissapointing Comeback Albums" category. The only thing that saves it is that the sound of the record is decent, its just the songs that suck.

    The only thing post-Puppets that Metallica have done that i truly enjoy was the S+M version of For Whom The Bell Tolls. If i ever get drafted into the military i want that version of the track playing when im out there. Its inspiring as fuck.
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  10. #10
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    Quote Originally Posted by zombul View Post
    Perhaps these bands have used all of their best material and songs with the deepest meaning they have come up with over long periods of time and they get signed for having some good stuff that they may have been writing since high-school.
    There was one thing Devin Townsend (see:genius) said like that, something along the lines of "Most bands write their best material when they're young, because they're angry as fuck, but when they get older they mellow out and its not quite as good anymore."

    Which is kinda true i think.
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  11. #11
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazhole View Post
    No, they fall under the second category (Jaded by the 'biz).

    Though only the one album (Puppets) really "spoke" to me. The two before it were just building up to Puppets, Justice was pretty good but not quite as awesome, and from the Black Album onwards it all went to hell, culminating in St Anger, which is one of the worst "metal" albums ive heard in a while.

    Though Slayer's Christ Illusion comes close in the "Dissapointing Comeback Albums" category. The only thing that saves it is that the sound of the record is decent, its just the songs that suck.

    The only thing post-Puppets that Metallica have done that i truly enjoy was the S+M version of For Whom The Bell Tolls. If i ever get drafted into the military i want that version of the track playing when im out there. Its inspiring as fuck.

    What are you on about? Although not the greatest fan, Ride the Lightening to The Black album were generally high quality. St Anger was rubbish, mainly due to the new bassist and that really shitty de-tuned sound that is far too rife in metal these days. So much so that i hardly listen to metal anymore. The snare drums sound on St Anger was crap too (to be pedantic). I don't think I've heard one song by anyone that is good with that shitty bass sound.

    Bang on about From whom the bell tolls....that's made to be a war soundtrack.

  12. #12
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    Quote Originally Posted by goob View Post
    What are you on about? Although not the greatest fan, Ride the Lightening to The Black album were generally high quality. St Anger was rubbish, mainly due to the new bassist and that really shitty de-tuned sound that is far too rife in metal these days. So much so that i hardly listen to metal anymore. The snare drums sound on St Anger was crap too (to be pedantic). I don't think I've heard one song by anyone that is good with that shitty bass sound.

    Bang on about From whom the bell tolls....that's made to be a war soundtrack.
    Ride The Lightening was awesome, Kill Em All i wasnt a HUGE fan of for some reason, but Seek And Destroy is one of my favourite metal songs.

    Im not saying those two albums are shit, i just meant they were paving the way for the much much better Puppets.

    As for the Black Album, meh. I'll agree to Disagree with everybody on that one, because i just dislike 90% of everything that album is. The 10% i do like is Enter Sandman, haha.

    But yeah, St Anger is universally despised i think.
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  13. #13
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazhole View Post
    Ride The Lightening was awesome, Kill Em All i wasnt a HUGE fan of for some reason, but Seek And Destroy is one of my favourite metal songs.

    Im not saying those two albums are shit, i just meant they were paving the way for the much much better Puppets.

    As for the Black Album, meh. I'll agree to Disagree with everybody on that one, because i just dislike 90% of everything that album is. The 10% i do like is Enter Sandman, haha.

    But yeah, St Anger is universally despised i think.
    Fair enough, I agree that the first two were building blocks for Puppets, which was superior. Most I know love the black album. Ok, it's a little softer, but the quality of songwriting is excellent throughout, so much so, that I would possibly consider it to be their best work.
    I always thought they were at their best mixing classical guitar techniques with metal.

    Favouristes: Sanatarium, Fade to Black, Wherever I may Roam, To live is to die.

  14. #14
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    Quote Originally Posted by goob View Post
    Fair enough, I agree that the first two were building blocks for Puppets, which was superior. Most I know love the black album. Ok, it's a little softer, but the quality of songwriting is excellent throughout, so much so, that I would possibly consider it to be their best work.
    I always thought they were at their best mixing classical guitar techniques with metal.

    Favouristes: Sanatarium, Fade to Black, Wherever I may Roam, To live is to die.
    Im partial to "The Thing That Should Not Be". Mostly because i read a lot of HP Lovecraft, so the lyrics take on a far more sinister edge, lol.
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  15. #15
    Elite Kiki
    ELITE MEMBER
    BigDyl's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Securityland
    Posts
    15,728
    Rep Points
    22298690

    Tool pwns all.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  16. #16
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDyl View Post
    Tool pwns all.
    So the girls tell me.....

  17. #17
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    Quote Originally Posted by goob View Post
    So the girls tell me.....
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  18. #18
    Elite Kiki
    ELITE MEMBER
    BigDyl's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Securityland
    Posts
    15,728
    Rep Points
    22298690

    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  19. #19
    Training Trainer
    ELITE MEMBER
    ponyboy's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Running around somewhere
    Posts
    2,712
    Rep Points
    4100113

    Quote Originally Posted by goob View Post
    Fair enough, I agree that the first two were building blocks for Puppets, which was superior. Most I know love the black album. Ok, it's a little softer, but the quality of songwriting is excellent throughout, so much so, that I would possibly consider it to be their best work.
    I always thought they were at their best mixing classical guitar techniques with metal.

    Favouristes: Sanatarium, Fade to Black, Wherever I may Roam, To live is to die.
    I think it's funny (and appropriate) that none of us Metallica fans even mention Load or Reload - I think they are better off forgotten in the garbage.

    I think the reason the Black Album didnt resonate with real fans is because it was a departure from the music they made for the previous albums. It was far more mainstream so they could get the radio and video play they needed to sell albums, which they did. Smart move, but yes, not a typical album.
    Today I can do what others will not so that tomorrow I will do what others cannot.

    The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don't want to do.

  20. #20
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by ponyboy View Post
    I think it's funny (and appropriate) that none of us Metallica fans even mention Load or Reload - I think they are better off forgotten in the garbage.

    I think the reason the Black Album didnt resonate with real fans is because it was a departure from the music they made for the previous albums. It was far more mainstream so they could get the radio and video play they needed to sell albums, which they did. Smart move, but yes, not a typical album.
    That's very true. It was watered down from previous albums, and even the songwriting structure deviated towards typical 'radio-friendly' rock. Even the hooks used were more accessable. Smart move indeed, its the one Metallica album you see in people's record collections.

  21. #21
    SHRUG LIKE YOU MEAN IT
    MODERATOR
    Gazhole's Avatar


    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,121
    Rep Points
    186065565

    I agree also.

    Absolutely everybody has that album simply because its incredibly generic radio-friendly material. I know people who are total pop fans who have that album.

    It really gets to me, when their first four albums are some of the best Thrash Metal ever recorded.

    Master Of Puppets is right up there with Slayer's Reign In Blood and Megadeth's Rust In Peace as the top three metal albums of the 80's IMO. All three are classic albums.

    It pains me how they went so wrong.
    http://www.getlifting.info

    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  22. #22
    Lexen Xtreme


    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    4,366
    Rep Points
    6846048

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDyl View Post
    Tool pwns all.

    I concur, though 10,000 days wasn't my favorite... I only like Wings for Marie Part 1&2 and The Pot for the most part.

  23. #23
    And the winner is......
    ELITE MEMBER
    the nut's Avatar


    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Quahog, RI
    Posts
    2,258
    Rep Points
    2881991

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDyl View Post
    Tool pwns all.
    Big D, did you go to the last tour? I'm a big fan, but they broke into this half hour keyboard and synthesizer jam, that was so gay. I thought I was watching the end of Revenge of the Nerds.
    I hope that donkey doesn't have a heinie troll!



  24. #24
    Elite Kiki
    ELITE MEMBER
    BigDyl's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Securityland
    Posts
    15,728
    Rep Points
    22298690

    Quote Originally Posted by the nut View Post
    Big D, did you go to the last tour? I'm a big fan, but they broke into this half hour keyboard and synthesizer jam, that was so gay. I thought I was watching the end of Revenge of the Nerds.
    The do random stuff. I didn't go to their last tour, but 99% of their random stuff is sick.

    Maynard's last APC album shows how he can put out weak tracks when he doesn't apply himself however.


    Actually that album did have one sick track, and if they were all of that quality, the third could have been the best, but I digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by kbm8795 View Post
    Oh, I think Americans understand that the one thing conservatives hate the most is the idea of spending American tax money on Americans. . .in America.


    Your tax money is safe. . .in Iraq.
    Total ownage.

  25. #25
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    956
    Rep Points
    10

    Quote Originally Posted by ponyboy View Post
    I think it's funny (and appropriate) that none of us Metallica fans even mention Load or Reload - I think they are better off forgotten in the garbage.

    I think the reason the Black Album didnt resonate with real fans is because it was a departure from the music they made for the previous albums. It was far more mainstream so they could get the radio and video play they needed to sell albums, which they did. Smart move, but yes, not a typical album.

    I disagree.

    The House that Jack Built
    Until It Sleeps
    King Nothing
    Fuel
    The Memory Remains

    These are some of my favorite songs....along with 20-30 of Metallica's other songs

  26. #26
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazhole View Post
    I agree also.

    Absolutely everybody has that album simply because its incredibly generic radio-friendly material. I know people who are total pop fans who have that album.

    It really gets to me, when their first four albums are some of the best Thrash Metal ever recorded.

    Master Of Puppets is right up there with Slayer's Reign In Blood and Megadeth's Rust In Peace as the top three metal albums of the 80's IMO. All three are classic albums.

    It pains me how they went so wrong.
    Rust in peace - what an opening couple of tracks: Holy Wars (Love the opening - great guitar riff to master) & Hanger 18. Brilliant. And really heavy.

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    ELITE MEMBER


    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Power Rack
    Posts
    2,303
    Rep Points
    1238818

    Quote Originally Posted by Brachiisaurus View Post
    I disagree.

    The House that Jack Built
    Until It Sleeps
    King Nothing
    Fuel
    The Memory Remains

    These are some of my favorite songs....along with 20-30 of Metallica's other songs

  28. #28
    Thats Dr. Keke to you!
    ELITE MEMBER
    KelJu's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    In my imagination.
    Posts
    14,974
    Rep Points
    1115136028

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazhole View Post
    No, they fall under the second category (Jaded by the 'biz).

    Though only the one album (Puppets) really "spoke" to me. The two before it were just building up to Puppets, Justice was pretty good but not quite as awesome, and from the Black Album onwards it all went to hell, culminating in St Anger, which is one of the worst "metal" albums ive heard in a while.

    Though Slayer's Christ Illusion comes close in the "Dissapointing Comeback Albums" category. The only thing that saves it is that the sound of the record is decent, its just the songs that suck.

    The only thing post-Puppets that Metallica have done that i truly enjoy was the S+M version of For Whom The Bell Tolls. If i ever get drafted into the military i want that version of the track playing when im out there. Its inspiring as fuck.

    Metallica was my favorite band when i was young. I was the typical pissed of emo whiteboy. Ride the Lightening, Master of Puppets, and And Justice for All all reflected what I felt inside at that time. Everything after that was soft, lame, and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. It did not speak to me. I couldn't feel anything from it.

    James become older, more mello, richer, and content with his life. That is the Irony of it all. He was only good when he was miserable.
    Fucking Determined!

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    ELITE MEMBER


    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Power Rack
    Posts
    2,303
    Rep Points
    1238818

    Quote Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
    Metallica was my favorite band when i was young. I was the typical pissed of emo whiteboy. Ride the Lightening, Master of Puppets, and And Justice for All all reflected what I felt inside at that time. Everything after that was soft, lame, and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. It did not speak to me. I couldn't feel anything from it.

    James become older, more mello, richer, and content with his life. That is the Irony of it all. He was only good when he was miserable.
    I like the hell out of their stuff.The only album I can't listen to from start to finish is St.Anger because it sounds like it was recorded inside a tin can.

  30. #30
    Smartass anthropologist
    ELITE MEMBER
    goob's Avatar


    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anywhere, everywhere, nowhere....
    Posts
    5,990
    Rep Points
    18202470

    Quote Originally Posted by KelJu View Post
    Metallica was my favorite band when i was young. I was the typical pissed of emo whiteboy. Ride the Lightening, Master of Puppets, and And Justice for All all reflected what I felt inside at that time. Everything after that was soft, lame, and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. It did not speak to me. I couldn't feel anything from it.

    James become older, more mello, richer, and content with his life. That is the Irony of it all. He was only good when he was miserable.
    It's the inspiration for a number of artists, they need misery to fire the creative burner. Read Kurt Cobain, Nick Drake, Ian Curtis....etc....

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Such a good song...
    By Fetusaurus Rex in forum Open Chat
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-06-2009, 09:19 AM
  2. Any good punk/rock bands that aren't mainstream?
    By thefutureisnow in forum Open Chat
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 09-05-2006, 09:48 PM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-23-2006, 06:13 PM
  4. good song
    By Ronald in forum Open Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-29-2005, 08:55 PM
  5. Are resistance bands good for training?
    By Imwithstupid926 in forum Training
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 09-14-2005, 09:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
-->