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Question about creatine, glutamine, protein whey. Stacked?

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    Question about creatine, glutamine, protein whey. Stacked?






    I've heard many different points about mixing these three supplements. Some saying that you can't mix creatine and glutamine and so forth. I want to know the best and most productive way to take all three. Currently, the way I use these supplements is as followed:

    Upon waking up: Protein Whey drink 31 grams with 5 grams of glutamine

    Before working out: (usually 1-1/2 hour after waking up) 5 grams of creatine monohydrate with bottled gatorade.( I have a question about that too)

    Post workout: 3 grams of creatine mixed with 3 grams of Leucine

    30 minutes after workout: Protein whey drink (31 grams)

    Before sleeping: Protein Whey 31 grams with 5 grams of glutamine.

    Is this schedule okay or is there a better way to optimize these supplements. I work out 6 days a week.
    My other question is about mixing bottled gatorade with my creatine monohydrate. The gatorade has citric acid in it and I was wondering if that will cancel out the creatine or turn it into useless creatine (creatinine). Should I just take it with water?

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    First up, whey's just food. Think of it as protein and be done with it. One of the aminos already present in whey is glutamine, so the glutamine you are supplementing with is quite utterly a waste. Read here for more.

    Leucine is a BCAA, nothing wrong with it but unless you're on a starvation diet I wouldn't waste my money - a cup of cottage cheese has about 5g of leucine in it. I'm sure you're already getting plenty.

    Creatine 5g a day take it anytime, and be done with it. The rest you'll just pee out anyway.

    Re gatorade, it's fine - but basically it's just overpriced sugar-water. Plain dextrose powder is cheaper - you can buy it anyplace wine-making supplies are sold. Mix a scoop of dextrose with a scoop of whey and dilute it in at least a litre of water. Try that preworkout, and sip another one DURING your workout instead of the gatoraid. Better and cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynistr View Post
    I've heard many different points about mixing these three supplements. Some saying that you can't mix creatine and glutamine and so forth. I want to know the best and most productive way to take all three. Currently, the way I use these supplements is as followed:

    Upon waking up: Protein Whey drink 31 grams with 5 grams of glutamine

    Before working out: (usually 1-1/2 hour after waking up) 5 grams of creatine monohydrate with bottled gatorade.( I have a question about that too)

    Post workout: 3 grams of creatine mixed with 3 grams of Leucine

    30 minutes after workout: Protein whey drink (31 grams)

    Before sleeping: Protein Whey 31 grams with 5 grams of glutamine.

    Is this schedule okay or is there a better way to optimize these supplements. I work out 6 days a week.
    My other question is about mixing bottled gatorade with my creatine monohydrate. The gatorade has citric acid in it and I was wondering if that will cancel out the creatine or turn it into useless creatine (creatinine). Should I just take it with water?
    glutamine is a waste forget it.
    protein powder is used to help meet your dietary protein needs, there is no time to take it. the only time is post workout with a carb source.
    taking creatine with a carb source is a good idea, but bottled gatorade has HFCS and is a bad idea. if you are enamored with gatorade get the powdered stuff from target, no hfcs.
    creatine can be taken pre or post, just take 5g.
    like i said protein + carbs post (could be gatorade).
    pre bed you want casein protein, not whey, but again, this isnt 100% necessary. eat some cottage cheese instead.

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    how can the most abundant amino acid in the body be a waste?...and besides if you don't supplement it adequately, due to the major organs using most of the circulating glutamine up, your muscles will not be volumized to the fullest...i personally have used a post workout concoction of whey,creatine,glutamine and dextrose for years and at age 44 i know my body extremely well as to what works and what does not work...i too used to spend unneccesary money on useless supplements during the golden age of supplements(early 90's)...through trial and era i figured it out for me...to say that glutamine is a waste is ludacris...the problem with most people is that they don't understand their body and the unique science of one's self...train hard,supplement smart, eat and rest appropiately and you will see results...it takes time to build quality muscle grasshooper...be patient, find a smart trainer that understands progression and how to build quality muscle, learn from him/her and watch your body do mind boggling things...peace out, sirflo
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    Your fine on mixing them all. Oral Glutamine supplementation is a waste here is why:

    Quote Originally Posted by cakedonkey View Post
    1: Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2006 Oct;31(5):518-29.

    Addition of glutamine to essential amino acids and carbohydrate does not enhance anabolism in young human males following exercise.

    Wilkinson SB, Kim PL, Armstrong D, Phillips SM.

    Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

    We examined the effect of a post-exercise oral carbohydrate (CHO, 1 g.kg(-1).h(-1)) and essential amino acid (EAA, 9.25 g) solution containing glutamine (0.3 g/kg BW; GLN trial) versus an isoenergetic CHO-EAA solution without glutamine (control, CON trial) on muscle glycogen resynthesis and whole-body protein turnover following 90 min of cycling at 65% VO2 peak. Over the course of 3 h of recovery, muscle biopsies were taken to measure glycogen resynthesis and mixed muscle protein synthesis (MPS), by incorporation of [ring-2H5] phenylalanine. Infusion of [1-13C] leucine was used to measure whole-body protein turnover. Exercise resulted in a significant decrease in muscle glycogen (p < 0.05) with similar declines in each trial. Glycogen resynthesis following 3 h of recovery indicated no difference in total accumulation or rate of repletion. Leucine oxidation increased 2.5 fold (p < 0.05) during exercise, returned to resting levels immediately post-exercise,and was again elevated at 3 h post-exercise (p < 0.05). Leucine flux, an index of whole-body protein breakdown rate, was reduced during exercise, but increased to resting levels immediately post-exercise, and was further increased at 3 h post-exercise (p < 0.05), but only during the CON trial. Exercise resulted in a marked suppression of whole-body protein synthesis (50% of rest; p < 0.05), which was restored post-exercise; however, the addition of glutamine did not affect whole-body protein synthesis post-exercise. The rate of MPS was not different between trials. The addition of glutamine to a CHO + EAA beverage had no effect on post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis or muscle protein synthesis, but may suppress a rise in whole-body proteolysis during the later stages of recovery.

    PMID: 17111006 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




    1: Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9.

    Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

    Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

    College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

    The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

    PMID: 11822473 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    Facts and fallacies of purported ergogenic amino acid supplements.

    Williams MH.

    Department of Exercise Science, Physical Education, and Recreation, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia, USA. mwilliam@odu.edu

    Although current research suggests that individuals involved in either high-intensity resistance or endurance exercise may have an increased need for dietary protein, the available research is either equivocal or negative relative to the ergogenic effects of supplementation with individual amino acids. Although some research suggests that the induction of hyperaminoacidemia via intravenous infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture may induce an increased muscle protein synthesis after exercise, no data support the finding that oral supplementation with amino acids, in contrast to dietary protein, as the source of amino acids is more effective. Some well-controlled studies suggest that aspartate salt supplementation may enhance endurance performance, but other studies do not, meriting additional research. Current data, including results for several well-controlled studies, indicated that supplementation with arginine, ornithine, or lysine, either separately or in combination, does not enhance the effect of exercise stimulation on either hGH or various measures of muscular strength or power in experienced weightlifters. Plasma levels of BCAA and tryptophan may play important roles in the cause of central fatigue during exercise, but the effects of BCAA or tryptophan supplementation do not seem to be effective ergogenics for endurance exercise performance, particularly when compared with carbohydrate supplementation, a more natural choice. Although glutamine supplementation may increase plasma glutamine levels, its effect on enhancement of the immune system and prevention of adverse effects of the overtraining syndrome are equivocal. Glycine, a precursor for creatine, does not seem to possess the ergogenic potential of creatine supplementation. Research with metabolic by-products of amino acid metabolism is in its infancy, and current research findings are equivocal relative to ergogenic applications. In general, physically active individuals are advised to obtain necessary amino acids through consumption of natural, high-quality protein foods.

    PMID: 10410846 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    Amino acids and endurance exercise.

    Hargreaves MH, Snow R.

    School of Health Sciences, Deakin University, Burwood, 3125, Australia.

    Although skeletal muscle is capable of oxidizing selected amino acids, exercise in the fed and carbohydrate-replete condition results in only a small increase in amino acid utilization. Nevertheless, it may be important to increase the dietary protein requirements of active individuals. There is ongoing debate as to whether the amino acids for oxidation are derived from the free amino acid pool, from net protein breakdown, or a combination of both. There has been interest in the potential ergogenic benefits of amino acid ingestion; however, BCAA ingestion does not appear to affect fatigue during prolonged exercise, there is little support from controlled studies to recommend glutamine ingestion for enhanced immune function, and although glutamine stimulates muscle glycogen synthesis, its addition to carbohydrate supplements provides no additional benefit over ingestion of carbohydrate alone.


    PMID: 11255141 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    The Effects of High-Dose Glutamine Ingestion on Weightlifting Performance

    JOSE ANTONIO1, 3, MICHAEL S. SANDERS1, DOUGLAS KALMAN2, DEREK WOODGATE1, and CHRIS STREET1

    1. Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, 2. Peak Wellness, Greenwich, Connecticut 06830, 3. Address correspondence to Jose Antonio, Scientific Affairs Department, Nutricia, 6111 Broken Sound Parkway NW, Boca Raton, FL 33487

    The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean ? SE: age, 21.5 ? 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 ? 2.8 kg−1) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g?kg−1) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.

    Reference Data:Antonio, J., M.S. Sanders, D. Kalman, D. Woodgate, and C. Street. The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.

    Keywords: amino acid, supplement, nutrition, protein

    DOI: 10.1519/1533-4287(2002)016[0157:TEOHDG]2.0.CO;2

    Look into L-Leucine (this is the protein synthesis powerhouse, not Glutamine as once thought) in the form of EAA's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirflo View Post
    how can the most abundant amino acid in the body be a waste?
    Well, let's see here.
    Berardi, quoting Barr: John Berardi - Appetite For Construction, Nov 8 2002
    "• A high protein diet provides a big whack of glutamine as it is. In fact, if you follow standard bodybuilding protein recommendations, about 10% of your total dietary protein intake is composed of glutamine (milk proteins are composed of somewhere between 3 — 10% glutamine while meat is composed of about 15% glutamine). This means that a high protein diet (400g/day) already provides me with about 40g of glutamine. "
    Okay - that's a lot of protein! I eat about 200g a day, so for me, 20g of glutamine are already in my diet.
    When I used to supplement with it, I'd get in 5g in my shake daily. Wow, an extra 5g! Still, sounds like it would help, right?
    Turns out, not really. See a great deal of orally injested glutamine is taken up by the gut. Your muscles won't know the difference once what little remains hits your blood stream. To a well-fed bodybuilder, taking 5-10g extra glutamine daily and saying it makes a difference is like saying "yesterday, I drank an extra half-cup of water and I was SO MUCH BETTER HYDRATED!". Sure, technically you are a little better hydrated - but ultimately if you do this every day you just pee more. You won't notice it.

    Same thing with the supplemented glutamine.
    Now, it is NOT useless: if you're in a burn unit, getting it in an IV drip for example because you can't swallow, and you're getting in 40g a day, it'll help:
    Amino Acid Supplements I: Glutamine
    "The usual dose of orally administered glutamine for the various applications mentioned above is 0.5-0.57 grams/kilogram of body weight, which is about 25-30 grams per day for an adult who has low muscle mass (e.g., body weight of only 50 kg, about 110 pounds). Recommended adult doses of glutamine taken orally range from as little as 5 grams per day (roughly matching the dietary levels) to about 40 grams per day (higher doses become impractical to administer and may provide no further benefits). The dosing is partly determined by body weight, with doses of 0.1-0.8 grams/kg being given according to various recommendations; the largest amounts are usually reserved for cases where there is little dietary glutamine and high need for it, such as after intestinal surgery when the patient cannot eat ordinary foods. Because glutamine is efficiently absorbed in the small intestine, blood levels reach a peak within an hour after ingestion. IV administration of glutamine is only utilized when parenteral feeding is already required. "

    Note how higher doses don't appear to increase the benefit of this supplement, even for those whose health is severly compromised.

    For a well-fed BB who already takes in 20+g daily through diet, supplementing will do one thing very well: lighten your wallet!

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    no kidding....
    thanks for the heads up on glutamine folks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Re gatorade, it's fine - but basically it's just overpriced sugar-water. Plain dextrose powder is cheaper - you can buy it anyplace wine-making supplies are sold. Mix a scoop of dextrose with a scoop of whey and dilute it in at least a litre of water. Try that preworkout, and sip another one DURING your workout instead of the gatoraid. Better and cheaper.
    a scoop of dextrose... the same size scoop that you use for whey?
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    I weighed one out a while back for one of my wannabebig columns.

    Dex is about twice as dense as most unsweetened/artificially sweetened commercially available whey powders.

    A 70cc scoop (this is the size of a typical protein-powder-scoop thingie that measures out the typical 20-25g protein serving) will measure out about 45g of dextrose, ballparkish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    I weighed one out a while back for one of my wannabebig columns.

    Dex is about twice as dense as most unsweetened/artificially sweetened commercially available whey powders.

    A 70cc scoop (this is the size of a typical protein-powder-scoop thingie that measures out the typical 20-25g protein serving) will measure out about 45g of dextrose, ballparkish.
    hrm, so i do or do not use a whey scoop-size scoop of dextrose in my w/o shake?
    w/o log
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    weight goal I: 150 :: bench goal II:170 :: squat goal II: 250 :: weighted chin goal IV: +35 x 5 x 5

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    Use as much or as little as your comfort and calories allow. I prefer to chew my carbs so I don't bother with it myself - but it's great for bulking.

    When I do up a shake for my husband, he likes two scoops of protein and one scoop of dextrose. Toss your creatine into it if you're using it.

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    Ummm

    You should not take creatine and glutamine simultaneously because they fight for receptors so it'll end up cancelling one another out

    Here's my routine. (BTW, I work out in the morning)

    Creatine, Leucine (Leukic Hardcore) 30-60min before workout

    Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard 100% whey protein, 5g L-Glutamine post workout

    30g Casein protein, 5g Glutamine before bed

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpmurph29 View Post
    You should not take creatine and glutamine simultaneously because they fight for receptors so it'll end up cancelling one another out
    Oh, do tell!

    Here's my routine. (BTW, I work out in the morning)

    Creatine, Leucine (Leukic Hardcore) 30-60min before workout

    Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard 100% whey protein, 5g L-Glutamine post workout

    30g Casein protein, 5g Glutamine before bed
    You making good gains on all this? What actual food do you eat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Oh, do tell!


    You making good gains on all this? What actual food do you eat?
    yes, prior to workout, i eat a ton of carbs...(oatmeal, pastas, etc)

    immediately after workout i drink a protein shake

    go home and take about a 1-2 hour nap

    wake up and consume a huge meal....tons of calories and protein but relatively low fat

    i also snack on whole grain and wheat based foods throughout the entire day...i really like wheat thins crackers

    And i drink a ton of water (avg 16-8oz cups) per day. I also drink a lot of fat free milk. 1 cup has like 8g protein. I get about 64g protein through milk exclusively per day

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpmurph29 View Post
    You should not take creatine and glutamine simultaneously because they fight for receptors so it'll end up cancelling one another out

    Here's my routine. (BTW, I work out in the morning)

    Creatine, Leucine (Leukic Hardcore) 30-60min before workout

    Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard 100% whey protein, 5g L-Glutamine post workout

    30g Casein protein, 5g Glutamine before bed
    That is a myth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpmurph29 View Post
    yes, prior to workout, i eat a ton of carbs...(oatmeal, pastas, etc)

    immediately after workout i drink a protein shake

    go home and take about a 1-2 hour nap

    wake up and consume a huge meal....tons of calories and protein but relatively low fat

    i also snack on whole grain and wheat based foods throughout the entire day...i really like wheat thins crackers

    And i drink a ton of water (avg 16-8oz cups) per day. I also drink a lot of fat free milk. 1 cup has like 8g protein. I get about 64g protein through milk exclusively per day
    This is simple - your gains are coming from your training and the food you eat.

    Surprise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amino89 View Post
    That is a myth.
    You say Tomato,
    I say tomato,
    You say a myth,
    I say total bullshit!
    Fucking Determined!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amino89 View Post
    That is a myth.
    idk
    i know glutamine peptides are fine to combine with creatine

    but it's still up in the air about regular l-glutamine/creatine negatively affecting each other

    it shouldnt even be a big deal though because typically you take creatine pre-workout and glutamine post-workout

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpmurph29 View Post
    idk
    i know glutamine peptides are fine to combine with creatine

    but it's still up in the air about regular l-glutamine/creatine negatively affecting each other

    it shouldnt even be a big deal though because typically you take creatine pre-workout and glutamine post-workout
    If creatine gets cancelled out by glutamine, your body must nuke it pretty damned fast - glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in you - and there's a whole pile of it in the amino-acid profiles of whey, meat, milk...

    Quite honestly, if you're still spending your money on glutamine you haven't done much reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Quite honestly, if you're still spending your money on glutamine you haven't done much reading.

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    well i did an experiment and for 1 week worked out with absolutely no supps

    then the next week, all i used was glutamine post workout alone and it did help with DOMS somewhat

    me and 2 of my friends did this and we all experienced slightly better results with glutamine

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    Was it double-blind?

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    it was a double blind/crossover

    and it was led by someone not participating



    BUT for what it's worth.....I would not continue to buy pure glutamine supp by itself....You can get a decent size serving of most EAAs and CAAs in any good Whey Protein

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