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M1T question (Progesterone induced gyno?)

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    M1T question (Progesterone induced gyno?)

    First of all, I know M1T is the worst oral you can take. I also have done tons of research and am taking all the proper support supplements including transdermal 4-ad to run along side it. However, I was reading that M1T will lower both test and estrogen levels... YET you can still get gyno from it?
    So this must mean M1T can raise progesterone levels to the point where some may get gyno from it. Now....

    My question is, I am under the understanding that Nolvadex only blocks estrogen receptors on site, but does nothing of the sort with progesterone. So... is there any recommendations to control Progesterone? I have Nolva on hand of course... but I want to make sure I don't take any chances....

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    Quote Originally Posted by chronicelite View Post
    First of all, I know M1T is the worst oral you can take. I also have done tons of research and am taking all the proper support supplements including transdermal 4-ad to run along side it. However, I was reading that M1T will lower both test and estrogen levels... YET you can still get gyno from it?
    So this must mean M1T can raise progesterone levels to the point where some may get gyno from it. Now....

    My question is, I am under the understanding that Nolvadex only blocks estrogen receptors on site, but does nothing of the sort with progesterone. So... is there any recommendations to control Progesterone? I have Nolva on hand of course... but I want to make sure I don't take any chances....
    You may want to wait till someone like dg806 or pirate or mudge chime in but I believe people are using b6 to help with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by workingatit43 View Post
    You may want to wait till someone like dg806 or pirate or mudge chime in but I believe people are using b6 to help with it.
    Wow really? That's definitely a shocker

    Hope to get some confirmation on this one

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    Nolvadex won't likely help much. There are a few prescription products that people think may help. Cabergoline is probably the best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chronicelite View Post
    Wow really? That's definitely a shocker

    Hope to get some confirmation on this one
    I believe I have seen logs where people are using it as part of the cycle to help with that.

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    In women, during pregnancy, both progesterone and estrogen are elevated. The sudden drop in progesterone in the presence of elevated estrogen induces the onset of lactation. Women used to be given "dry out" tablets for this - you guessed it, bromocriptine.

    So-called progesterone-induced gyno is, in fact, not due to progesterone, but rather elevated levels of prolactin, which is why bromocriptine is the standard treatment.

    I have nothing to back up my assertion, but my hunch is that if you're running an aromatizable compound and you happen to have a lot of aromatase around - ie if you're a little "juicy" and run a progestin - a compound with a strong afinity for the progesterone receptor, such as tren or deca - the perceived drop in progesterone will stimulate hyperprolactinemia.

    If that's the case, it would seem prudent to run an AI before running the progestin.

    My .02 - I'll look forward to reading feedback on this from someone who really knows this stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
    Nolvadex won't likely help much. There are a few prescription products that people think may help. Cabergoline is probably the best.
    I know a place where I can get brand name Cabergoline (sold under the name Dostinex)

    Any idea how and when to dose it.

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    M1T does not aromatise.

    Take 0.5mg two to four times weekly. If you do it more frequently, you may be able to decrease your refractory period and have multiple orgasms. I never had gyno, but cabergoline can be fun.
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    The progestin Nandrolone decreases endogenous progesterone, at least in women:
    "Nandrolone and oxymetholone were found to significantly shorten cycle and luteal phase lengths and depress plasma LH and progesterone levels as compared to control cycles. Nandrolone also significantly depressed plasma FSH levels."

    <snip>

    "The mechanism of the effect of nandrolone and oxymetholone appears to be due to their antigonadotropic action that only secondarily reduces progesterone levels." <pubmed>

    To the OP, if this makes as much sense to you as it does to me, if M1T is a progestin, then it binds to the progesterone receptor, which will then serve to decrease - not increase - endogenous progesterone. From this, it follows that if you are "estrogen-primed", the drop in endogenous progesterone may stimulate lactation.

    It might be prudent to run an AI BEFORE running the M1T, just in case - and particularly if you're not particularly lean going in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
    M1T does not aromatise.

    Take 0.5mg two to four times weekly. If you do it more frequently, you may be able to decrease your refractory period and have multiple orgasms. I never had gyno, but cabergoline can be fun.

    Should this be run during cycle or during PCT??

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    from what I have been reading about PCT, it seems that the higher you raise your test levels, the higher you raise your estrogen levels, causing further suppression. So... am I correct to say, you should run a test booster off the bat but then drop the test booster and run nolva/clomid for a couple weeks after to avoid a crash?

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    A test booster? What do you have in mind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    A test booster? What do you have in mind?
    I like Mass FX, Hyperdrol 2 & Retain 2 (cortisol control)

    But I am beginning to question if there is a more effective way of raising test without raising estrogen too much

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    I always like the idea of using cabergoline. However, back when I first found the stuff it never seemed like I could get a high enough dosing to make it effective at preventing the gyno from M1T.

    I do know that the risk is real as I have friends that used to run it alone and a couple of them came back with some gyno from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I always like the idea of using cabergoline. However, back when I first found the stuff it never seemed like I could get a high enough dosing to make it effective at preventing the gyno from M1T.

    I do know that the risk is real as I have friends that used to run it alone and a couple of them came back with some gyno from it.
    So you ended up getting gyno from it?

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    My first bout with gyno came from 4AD. Got it almost immediately after it started kicking in. I think my first cycle years ago was 1-T + 4AD. By the time I threw M1T in with a later cycle I already had gyno. Didn't notice anything additional from the M1T.

    I just looked at the dosing on my cabergoline and it didn't seem like enough to do much. That was some time ago though.

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    Built, those are good post and explains it perfectly. I try to tell guys that it is elevated estrogen that causes prolactin gyno. Thanks.




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    I used those post on AM for a "phera/prolactin" thread. Basically the same arguement.
    Prolactin and Phera




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    Quote Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
    I used those post on AM for a "phera/prolactin" thread. Basically the same argument.
    Prolactin and Phera
    Wow, thank you!

    I STILL think it's prolactin that ends up being stimulated, but it's not because of elevated progesterone - my assertion is that the breast-tissue is estrogen-primed (for any of various reasons) and that the progestin-induced drop in endogenous progesterone induces lactation - ie prolactin becomes elevated relative to the norm. Once this happens, an AI or SERM is unlikely to help on its own, but an anti-prolactin might not do enough if there is also "regular" gyno present by this point.

    Anyone ever tried running an AI/SERM along with bromo or cabergoline for this problem? And for those of you who have experienced this so-called "progesterone-induced gyno" - were you lean before starting the progestin, or were you in fact a little juicy at the time?
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    Cabergoline can be run during and post, Chronic.

    I wouldn't count on cabergoline preventing gyno. If you have lots of nolva and a decent AI, you should be able to hault gyno - even if you're not taking a steroid that aromatizes.

    I'm confident that prolactin is a factor. Your estrogen levels will be almost nil during a cycle of M1T, because your LH production will disappear.

    The handful of M1T gyno cases I've counseled people through all had one thing in common. The gyno began during the post cycle period. Getting Test back up and keeping estrogen low should help. Most test boosters only boost test because of the AI, which can sabatoge your hpta recovery during pct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
    Cabergoline can be run during and post, Chronic.

    I wouldn't count on cabergoline preventing gyno. If you have lots of nolva and a decent AI, you should be able to hault gyno - even if you're not taking a steroid that aromatizes.
    What about when you run 4-AD and HCG during cycle???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate! View Post
    The handful of M1T gyno cases I've counseled people through all had one thing in common. The gyno began during the post cycle period. Getting Test back up and keeping estrogen low should help. Most test boosters only boost test because of the AI, which can sabatoge your hpta recovery during pct.
    So I should focus more on keeping estrogen low versus getting my test back up quickly right? I am thinking of just leaving out the test booster all together until after PCT, what do you think???

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