Broser vs Palumbo - battle of the keto diet

Page 1 of 15 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 432
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Prince's Avatar


    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Panama
    Posts
    63,896
    Rep Points
    2147483647

    Broser vs Palumbo - battle of the keto diet




    Here's what I wrote in MD magazine in response to BROSER's first Anti-Keto Diet article...the same article that Blechman said was his best work to date!

    QUESTION:
    In the December issue of MD, Eric Broser wrote an article that listed 7 reasons why a zero carbohydrate diet is bad for bodybuilders. In it, he claimed that low carb diets result in no insulin production, high cortisol, low thyroid, low GH, low IGF-1, a compromised immune system, and impaired gene expression for muscle hypertrophy. What’s the deal with these claims?

    ANSWER:
    I really don’t want this to turn into a bash Eric Broser response because I really like the guy and respect what he’s doing in the industry. However, when people make bold statements like this, I feel they must be held accountable for what they say. Let’s start by addressing the statement, “Without any carbs there will be no insulin!” Eric then goes on to explain that without insulin secretion pre- and post-workout, you won’t transport vital nutrients into muscle cells. Anyone who knows anything about biochemistry will realize this statement is completely ludicrous since glucose is constantly being made in the liver via gluocneogenesis (Remember, 80% of the glucose you use during weight training comes from amino acids). In order to shuttle this glucose into the working muscle cells, insulin in required. Likewise, it's important to understand that in a low insulin environment, GH and IGF-1 levels are elevated. IGF-1 can do everything insulin can do (except store fat); and it does it better!

    With regard to the statement that low insulin leads to increased cortisol, I have to remind Mr. Broser that when consuminga high protein/moderate fat/low carb ketogenic diet, cortisol levels will be low (not high) because the brain is feeding on fats. Contrary to what he’s thinking, cortisol levels are much more elevated when on a high protein/moderate carb/low fat because the brain is constantly looking for glucose to feed itself. When blood glucose dips (especially in-between meals), cortisol (a stress hormone) is released and it helps to raise blood sugar by telling the liver to turn amino acids (possibly coming from muscle) into glucose.

    Given the fact that we now know that cortisol levels are low when following a high protein/moderate fat/low carb ketogenic diet, Brosers’ statement, “With more cortisol there will be decreased thyroid function” becomes much more relevant to his high protein/moderate carb/low fat diet. However, what he may have meant to say was thatlow insulin levels can decrease T4 (inactive thyroid hormone) to T3 (active thyroid hormone) thus reducing the output of functional thyroid hormone. This is certainly true and it’s why I recommend a weekly insulin-spiking cheat meal once a week!
    When addressing Broser’s statement that attempts to correlate elevated cortisol with low levels of GH and IGF-1, I have to, once again, remind him that cortisol will be much higher on a diet where the brain is dependent on glucose (i.e. his high protein/moderate fat/low carb diet). While on high protein/moderate fat/low carb ketogenic diets, insulin levels are low, GH levels are high, and IGF-1 levels are also elevated.

    Will the exclusion of carbs pre- and post-workout result in a suppressed immune system? No way! Remember, immune cells are made from protein and fat; therefore, it's insane to think that no pre- or post-workout carbs would have any effect, whatsoever. More likely, the immune system will suffer on a diet that is deficient in essential fatty acids. When Dr Scott Connelly was doing his initial research on burn patients, he found that diets as high as 10,000 calories of carbs per day wouldn't stop patients from withering away and dying of wasting and immune system failure. However, when amino acids and essential fats where added to the IV bags (at a mere 3000 calories) the patients began gaining weight and resisting infection.

    Finally, I’d love for Broser to show me one stitch of research that demonstrates that bodybuilders, who follow a high protein/moderate fat/low carb ketogenic diet, have compromised muscle hypertrophy genes. That’s one study I’d like to read. The problem is that it doesn’t exist.
    Attached Images Attached Images


    IronMagLabs 15% Discount Code: Robert15






    IronMag Research 15% Discount Code: Robert15



  2. #2
    Senior Member
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Prince's Avatar


    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Panama
    Posts
    63,896
    Rep Points
    2147483647

    I only posted this because I thought it would start an interesting discussion, I am not taking Dave or Eric's side here, I remain neutral.


    IronMagLabs 15% Discount Code: Robert15






    IronMag Research 15% Discount Code: Robert15



  3. #3
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    Considering how much time I spend in ketosis, it's reassuring to read that Dave Palumbo doesn't think I've dried up and blown away in the wind.

    That being said, while I find ketosis very comfortable - it does promote satiety for many of us - I think altogether too much emphasis is placed on that word, and on the hyperbole surrounding it. "Zero" carb - I mean, why would you eat that way? It certainly isn't a requirement for ketogenic dieting, and last time I checked, nobody got fat eating some steamed broccoli with their poached chicken breast! Besides, ketosis isn't behind the fat loss. Reduction of intake is behind weight loss. Retaining muscle ensures FAT loss, and high-protein keto diets, because they reduce the body's reliance on glucose, tend to be muscle sparing.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  4. #4
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Palumbo had a great response, especially in the last paragraph.
    I wonder, does MD even check references, or do they just throw shit to the wind and see what sticks? This is why I dont buy magazines anymore.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  5. #5
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    LMAO at throwing shit in the wind to see what sticks!

    Jumbo Palumbo does have significant background in this stuff - far more than I do. I seem to recall he got through a few years of med school before figuring out how to make more money than a physician.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Prince's Avatar


    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Panama
    Posts
    63,896
    Rep Points
    2147483647

    yes he did, but I think he said he was just bored and really had no desire to work as a doctor.


    IronMagLabs 15% Discount Code: Robert15






    IronMag Research 15% Discount Code: Robert15



  7. #7
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    His formal university education in biochem is evident.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  8. #8
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    so my point is, what the hell did MD think when hiring gobro bbing writers with absolutely no formal education. I noticed that when I do open a bbing shit mag, I jump right to the research pages. How do these people in this industry continue to do this? Dont they want to be taken seriously?
    Isnt there some type of filter on these things? Or do they not care and give every shit about money only? Where's the integrity?
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  9. #9
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    LMAO at throwing shit in the wind to see what sticks!
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  10. #10
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    It's a business, Juggernaut. The mags are a vehicle to sell product, just like how every other magazine is a vehicle to sell product.

    I don't allow fashion magazines into my home for this reason. They make you feel ugly, then sell you makeup to fix it. I'm fine with it being legal to do this - but I ain't buying.

    For research, I go straight to the source. Why read MD when you can read pubmed?

    <hugs her science degrees lovingly>

    So nice to be able to read research.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Prince's Avatar


    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Panama
    Posts
    63,896
    Rep Points
    2147483647

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    so my point is, what the hell did MD think when hiring gobro bbing writers with absolutely no formal education. I noticed that when I do open a bbing shit mag, I jump right to the research pages. How do these people in this industry continue to do this? Dont they want to be taken seriously?
    Isnt there some type of filter on these things? Or do they not care and give every shit about money only? Where's the integrity?
    YOU REALLY ARE NAIVE.


    IronMagLabs 15% Discount Code: Robert15






    IronMag Research 15% Discount Code: Robert15



  12. #12
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince View Post
    YOU REALLY ARE NAIVE.
    thank you.

    Ok...I'll bite; Why's that?
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  13. #13
    P/RR/Sh Warrior
    Tank316's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Barron,Wi
    Posts
    4,542
    Rep Points
    1938442

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    so my point is, what the hell did MD think when hiring gobro bbing writers with absolutely no formal education. I noticed that when I do open a bbing shit mag, I jump right to the research pages. How do these people in this industry continue to do this? Dont they want to be taken seriously?
    Isnt there some type of filter on these things? Or do they not care and give every shit about money only? Where's the integrity?
    Great to voice your opinion..
    You remind alot of the guy I sat next to in typing class in high school.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau!

  14. #14
    P/RR/Sh Warrior
    Tank316's Avatar


    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Barron,Wi
    Posts
    4,542
    Rep Points
    1938442

    I read through the entire thread @MD about this whole debate, it was full of info. I think its closed now, not sure. I respect both Dave and Erics views on the topic. They both have some type of formal education, again to which i say, I respect!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau!

  15. #15
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Tank316 View Post
    Great to voice your opinion..
    You remind alot of the guy I sat next to in typing class in high school.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  16. #16
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    I am unfamiliar with Broser's post-secondary education in this area. Is it comparable to pre-med?
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  17. #17
    NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder
    BOARD REP
    gopro's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    GLOBAL!
    Posts
    11,169
    Rep Points
    33417782

    Prince, you need to print my response back to Dave.

    Interesting side notes:

    -Dave Palumbo at one point asked ME to write "the definitive book on dieting for fat loss" with him several months after HE himself pushed the owner of MD to get me on staff. We did not get around to it because we were both too busy and then we kind of parted ways, which is obvious.
    -Steve Blechman, who lives his life by research and studies, AND the senior science editor of MD, Robbie Durand, both agree with ME on the topic
    of keto-diets and bodybuilding (especially for naturals).
    -Dave is no longer with MD, but I am.

    Finally...I have total respect for Dave and our debate was never meant to get personal, although he made it that way. But, I still think he is one of the best minds in the business and since I have sat in his home and talked with him on many occasion, I wish him the best.

    *NATURAL PRO BODYBUILDER
    *MONTHLY COLUMNIST FOR PLANET MUSCLE, NATURAL MUSCLE AND IRONMAN MAGAZINES
    *CEO OF BROSERBUILT.COM
    *PIONEER OF POWER/REP RANGE/SHOCK AND FIBER DAMAGE/FIBER SATURATION TRAINING PROTOCOLS

  18. #18
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    I see no indication that it was made "personal". People move on in life. Maybe he got sick of the bullshit that is ragmag journalism and took it seriously-no wonder he left.
    Dave has credentials...what are yours? I know you went to school for psychology, but how does that make you an authority on biochemistry-Dave's specialty? I'm also interested in this research that shows how muscle hypertrophy is compromised in this particular environment.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  19. #19
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    Ah, to be fair, I have no formal background in physiology either. Many of us don't. That's why I'm so appreciative of folks like Lyle and Jumbo who are able to translate formal education in physiology into this arena.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  20. #20
    NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder
    BOARD REP
    gopro's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    GLOBAL!
    Posts
    11,169
    Rep Points
    33417782

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I see no indication that it was made "personal". People move on in life. Maybe he got sick of the bullshit that is ragmag journalism and took it seriously-no wonder he left.
    Dave has credentials...what are yours? I know you went to school for psychology, but how does that make you an authority on biochemistry-Dave's specialty? I'm also interested in this research that shows how muscle hypertrophy is compromised in this particular environment.
    Please do not speak on something you no nothing about. And I am not saying that in a "asshole" kind of way, but in total truth. Dave DID make a "professional" argument personal. In fact, I was apologized to formally by the owner of MD for allowing Dave's response in the format it was put in. Also, Dave was fired, he did not quit. He was not tired of MD at all...he was forced out, but for many reasons I cannot discuss.

    As for credentials and such...Dave's formal education is different than mine, but we have the same level of experience and like I said...HE ASKED ME...not some scientist...not some researcher...not some PhD...but ME to write a book WITH him. That should tell you something about what Dave himself believes about my knowledge and capabilities.

    And again...although Dave and I sort of left off on a lousy note in a way...I wish him nothing but the best as I know he does for me as well. I am sure we wish we could go back in time and redo our "discussion."

    As for the keto-diet stuff....although NOTHING has proven my thoughts about it more than 20 years experience witnessing the effects of all types of nutritional regimens, I posted an article with references in another thread. It only reinforced everything I already knew. And, I should point out that 1) I never said keto diets do not work, only that they are not optimal, and 2) That I myself have found exceptions, meaning that there are some that do best on keto plans...but they are the minority.

    *NATURAL PRO BODYBUILDER
    *MONTHLY COLUMNIST FOR PLANET MUSCLE, NATURAL MUSCLE AND IRONMAN MAGAZINES
    *CEO OF BROSERBUILT.COM
    *PIONEER OF POWER/REP RANGE/SHOCK AND FIBER DAMAGE/FIBER SATURATION TRAINING PROTOCOLS

  21. #21
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    You know something, I'm going to play devil's advocate with you on that last point gopro. I don't truly think we're the minority - I think there's so little information about low carb/keto diets in the mainstream fitness community, that people like me - who absolutely can NOT diet down on a high carb diet (because it's misery for me) - get turned off and self-select out. You are left with the people who do well on non-keto, higher-carb cutting diets.

    Doubt me? Well, the research on satiety supports my assertion that ketosis improves satiety in the obese through the enhancement of cholecystokinin - and the fatter we are, the better this suppresses postprandial appetite. Dieted down obese may need to consume a higher protein and fat diet forever in order to remain as comfortable as never-obese lean people on a mixed diet.

    Still doubt me? Look around any mall in the USA, and behold the wonder that is a diet that is too high in carbohydrate. The low fat experiment was a DISASTER - it promoted hunger in way too many people, and caused a situation where postprandial satiety may never be normal for most of these people on standard American/Canadian dietary (read: high carb, low fat) recommendations.

    Short story long: fatties can't diet, 'cause it's brutally hard for many of 'em unless we go keto - and the fitness community generally doesn't recommend this so we just don't try.

    Why couldn't I? Because it wouldn't WORK? Nonsense. Of course a non-keto diet would have leaned me out - if only I wasn't such a pussy and just sucked up feeling like chewing my goddamned arm off all the time! If discomfort wasn't a problem, I most certainly could have dieted down on the old "oatmeal and whey for breakfast/six meals a day/tons of cardio" paradigm that is the most prevalent in physical culture.

    In fact, I've been run out of town on a rail for eating butter (GASP!) on some of the mainstream boards, especially in my early days in the community, back in 2001-2003.

    The point I'll mention to you, Eric, is that this is not an all or nothing plan, and it's not MY keto diet. I didn't invent it.

    Furthermore, I have never eaten a zero carb day in my life - not on Atkins, not on Lyle's "Rapid fat loss" PSMF, not on TKD or CKD. I eat veggies, LOTS of 'em, every day. Ketosis isn't my goal, and I haven't checked for ketones in probably eight years. It just happens when you go low enough and get depleted. Quite in fact, a normal, healthy body goes into and out of ketosis daily - and being in a ketogenic state has various benefits to human health, among them improvements in brain and cardiac function - not to mention the anticancer benefits due to this fuel source. Ketones may be thought of as a less-desirable fuel source by healty bodily tissues, but cancer is noteworthy in its altered mitochondrial function - cancer needs sugar, and without it, fails to thrive. You can easily check this on pubmed. Ketosis is associated with improved outcomes in epileptics and migraineurs (this one is also true in my own case - I had migraines every twenty eight days from the age of 11 until the age of 38. They ended when I did Atkins, and at the time of writing, almost eight years in, have not returned); brain and prostate cancers respond favourably to ketosis, as does satiety. In fact, starvation, which induces the muscle-sparing effect due to ketosis after a few days - is associated with reduced incidence of cancer. Anorexics have many health problems, but cancer rates are reduced, as they are in the survivors of concentration camps and even Celiac - wherein the malabsorption due to GI damage mitigates starvation in spite of feeding - is associated with a reduction in the rate of breast cancer.

    Gahhh I read too much lol - I really need to go back to school. This stuff is just so FASCINATING!

    But to sum things up, don't lay keto diets on me - I don't live in ketosis, and I don't think it's important for leaning out. That part comes from the nitrogen-positive state due to the high protein consumption and the insulin resistance that are coincident (and very welcome!) during a cut.
    Last edited by Built; 05-07-2009 at 12:18 AM.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  22. #22
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Ketosis is associated with improved outcomes in epileptics and migraineurs (this one is also true in my own case - I had migraines every twenty eight days from the age of 11 until the age of 38. They ended when I did Atkins, and at the time of writing, almost eight years in, have not returned); brain and prostate cancers respond favourably to ketosis, as does satiety.
    Here's what I know gobro; a) I'm epileptic to the most violent degree. Built suggested to me that I switch over to a higher fat/higher protein diet. Since the day I made the entire switch, not aura (a precursor to a seizure has NOT bothered me). My seizure activity used to be off the charts; in fact, the doctor wanted to do brain surgery on me. I said fuck that. I took matters into my own hands. I listened to something with research, which is why I am such a maven for lab tested results-not BULLSHIT self-modified personal experiences after 20 years. Your theories are mere claims. What may work for you, will not work for me and a ton of fatties out there.
    b) when I did the high carb high protein diet, I was never more uncomfortable in my life, and had a gnawing, uncontrollable hunger, added into gasiness and bloated that made me an unsocial motherfucker. I have yet to feel ANY discomfort on this lifestyle diet.
    c) I am shredded like a sonofabitch with muscle fullness and hardness that cant be matched while on this high protein/high fat diet. As an added bonus, my strength goes through the roof.

    d) My dad has cancer. He switched over to a high protein high fat diet and doing better and enjoying life to the best possible way. He golfs and walks on a daily basis and is active like a madman and has recently taken up strength training. He wasnt this way on the shit high carb diet that swept America.

    Take a look around, your minority is fast becoming the norm. Your statement is null.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  23. #23
    Bioidentical Bodybuilder
    ELITE MEMBER
    Built's Avatar


    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    .
    Posts
    11,337
    Rep Points
    409983817

    That's right, you told me about the epilepsy. I'm really glad the aura phenomenon has settled down. Many brain functions appear to improve in ketosis - even Alzheimer's.
    Wondering where to start? Confused? "Homework 1" will get you started.

    Think you're ready for the "next step"? Take this test.

    Daredevils are Shredded
    Find out why...
    (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!)



    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Prince's Avatar


    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Panama
    Posts
    63,896
    Rep Points
    2147483647

    Eric, is MD going back to being a "natural" magazine?


    IronMagLabs 15% Discount Code: Robert15






    IronMag Research 15% Discount Code: Robert15



  25. #25
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    165
    Rep Points
    10

    These threads drive me crazy. The argument, er discussion is flawed in that you are comparing apples to oranges.

    The arguments that I see are:

    Gopro asserts that ketogenic diets are not optimal for natural body builders to get lean and maintain LBM. He cites 20 years real world experience on himself and natural trainees and gave a study to support this view.

    Built and Jug assert that ketosis diets is the best way to get lean and maintain LBM. Both cite anecdotal evidence of why this is true and can produce numerous studies of the general population as to why this works.

    And both arguments are probably correct in their analysis depending on the subjects/population they are discussing.

    I may be over simplifying or reading too much into this but I think that Gopro's opinion is based on individuals who train for contests who typically start at a 10-12% bf level and diet down to a 5-6% bf level.

    I think that Built and Jug are talking about individuals who start out as obese and diet down to the 10% bf range.

    In order for this discussion to be more meaningful I think we need to agree or even define the specifics of what we are debating here.

    Regards,
    Balin.

  26. #26
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince View Post
    Eric, is MD going back to being a "natural" magazine?
    I snickered as I saw thumbing through the pages of MD about 4-6 steroid articles. They ARE needed, however, I dont think the magazine will ever go natty again-were they ever?
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  27. #27
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Balin View Post

    I may be over simplifying or reading too much into this but I think that Gopro's opinion is based on individuals who train for contests who typically start at a 10-12% bf level and diet down to a 5-6% bf level.

    I think that Built and Jug are talking about individuals who start out as obese and diet down to the 10% bf range.

    In order for this discussion to be more meaningful I think we need to agree or even define the specifics of what we are debating here.
    youre wrong. It was only after hitting 12% bf that I went down further because of the higher fat and higher protein. Built started seeing better results after doing the same switch.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  28. #28
    Registered User


    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    165
    Rep Points
    10

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    youre wrong. It was only after hitting 12% bf that I went down further because of the higher fat and higher protein. Built started seeing better results after doing the same switch.
    How low did you get?

    Regards,
    Balin.

  29. #29
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    how low? I measured last contest close to 4%.I was 7% by the end of the following week. But, that was taking a three day break-after that, the carbs and bloating started kicking in and I had to stop. Went back to high protein and high fat and adjusted almost overnight.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

  30. #30
    Creator of Chaos
    MODERATOR
    juggernaut's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    11,423
    Rep Points
    319172539

    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    That's right, you told me about the epilepsy. I'm really glad the aura phenomenon has settled down. Many brain functions appear to improve in ketosis - even Alzheimer's.
    it was really bad. I was in the middle of opening up my gym and would have to stop because I was getting jittery from the repeated auras. I was spacing out way too much...which to me is like death.
    Disclaimer: All health, fitness, diet, nutrition, anabolic steroid & supplement information posted here is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and is not intended as a substitute for proper medical advice from a medical doctor. We do not condone the use of anabolic steroids (AAS), all information about AAS is for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you choose to use AAS it's your responsibility to know the laws of the country that you live in. Consult your physician or health care professional before performing any of the exercises, or following any diet, nutrition or supplement advice described on this website.

Page 1 of 15 1234511 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-21-2011, 06:17 PM
  2. IGF DES and Keto Diet
    By bwrag in forum Research Chemicals
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-23-2011, 01:46 PM
  3. Do i need to eat fat on the keto diet?
    By lancs in forum Diet & Nutrition
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-13-2010, 10:19 AM
  4. Dave palumbo diet for show!
    By WFC2010 in forum Anabolic Zone
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-26-2010, 09:07 AM
  5. DIET PLAN for mass Cycle-Dave Palumbo ifbb pro!
    By tbbacot in forum Diet & Nutrition
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-23-2009, 07:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
-->