kyoun1e

I've recently finished eight weeks of UD2 (with the help of Juggernaut) and I've seen my flat bench strength go to the crapper. Prior to UD2 I was doing a 5 x 5 and I was hitting 245. Post UD2, I'm struggling with 225. It's been a slippery slope downhill the entire time.

While Lyle McDonald indicates that "pressing movements have a tendancy to suffer" during serious diet phases, this loss of strength seems severe.

I'm about to start another round of UD2. At least 4 weeks, maybe 6 weeks. Before I get started I'm looking for help in two areas:

1. Form -- I think I'm all screwed up. I think I do ok driving the shoulder blades into the bench and arching, but I know I'm screwing up the "elbow correction," the decent down, the location from which I lower to, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm probably putting too much stress on my shoulder. Hoping there are resources, tips, and cues that I can leverage to get this right.

2. Routine -- Next week I start and I'm looking for a way to "ramp up" my flat bench on my "power workout" days. Figure a 6 week UD2 program. If I was doing 225-235 previously, what should I do on week 1? Start from a lower level and maybe do 3 x 8? Then progress on week 2 to say, 4 x 6 with higher weight? I don't know. Need help. Again, once per week I do a "power workout" where I lift heavy with low reps.

My goals are pretty simple: Maintain my strength if not grow it during this period. I don't need to move back to 245. Not sure that's possible. But if I can get moving back in the right direction I'll be super happy.

All while seeing some abs pop in 4-6 weeks.

Thanks.

KY

m11

In terms of form, I'm a fan of Dave Tate

TMUSCLE.com | Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure

I cannot comment on whether or not you should bother with the routine at the end of the article...but its not a bad read/video for form.

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juggernaut

post a video of what it looks like

gtbmed

Are you lowering the bar to your mid-chest or to your lower-chest/upper-abs?

The former will recruit the deltoids a lot while the latter recriuts the triceps and is more correct IMO. It also leads to bigger numbers.

Also, how often are you training tricep movements like CG bench press or skull crushers?

gtbmed's strength journal

kyoun1e

This is the exact video I watched this morning that had me thinking I'm screwed up in terms of form.

KY

kyoun1e

I think I'm more mid chest vs lower chest.

If you look at the video posted above, that guy is definitely lowering to the lower part of his chest / upper abs. Also, the high back arc has him reducing the distance the bar has to be lowered/raised.

One of my biggest questions is the arm angle and elbow positioning. My gut says that having your arms perpendicular to your body is way wrong, but on the flip side having your elbows tucked in tight to the body seems strange. Somewhere in the middle?

Really need a benching 101, step-by-step:

1. Back arched/tight.
2. Elbow correction this way
3. Lower bar in this way; Elbows like blah
4. Raise the bar like blah

KY

KY

m11

On page 2 of that link, he gives you a pretty thorough step by step in terms of how the Westside crew do their bench.

I'm a fan of tucking your elbows towards your body. However, I personally take a wider grip than Dave does, yet I still bring my elbows in towards my body on the descent. I kinda gives you t-rex looking arms at the bottom. With retracted shoulders though, it puts me in a powerful position at the bottom.



As an aside, how big of a deal is this for you that your bench dropped? I'm sure the results you got from UD outweigh the -20lbs on the bench. How are your other lifts holding up?

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These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, do not constitute medical advice, and are not official or authorized comments by
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kyoun1e

Oh, I didn't take a look at the 2nd page.

I completely agree...the benefits of UD2 overall by far outweigh bench strength. I can make the sacrifice. Do I want to especially if it's correctable? No.

The fact that most of my other lifts went up has me even more curious about the bench situation. For example:

* Legs -- off the charts across the board.
* Incline bench -- stable to increase.
* Shrugs / Laterals -- serious increases
* Weighted Dips / Weighted Pullups -- serious increases
* Bis/tris -- Ditto

The only exception...and this is inline with Lyle's comments on pressing movements...is shoulder presses which really just stayed put at 65 lb dumbell presses.

I'm going to check this 2nd page out. Form is #1. Then if I can figure out a six week progressive routine for my once per week power workout I'm all set. I'm thinking of starting to get my bench moving in the right direction this week with a 3 x 10 tension workout that focuses on form more than weight on the bar. Then moving to a pre-UD2 power workout that gets me rolling...maybe 3 x 8 there.

KY

m11

Sounds like you are stronger. I wouldn't stress about 1 lift, which in my opinion is less important that the squat and deadlift. You seem to be progressing nicely so there is no need to worry much

I'm sure someone with more experience with UD will give you a better idea on whether your experiences are typical or not.

Nonetheless, good work with your progress so far..it sounds good.

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These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, do not constitute medical advice, and are not official or authorized comments by
LG Sciences, LLC.

kyoun1e

Yeah I'm happy with it.

It's just that my damn ego is going to be crushed if I fall below 225. There's something about going below two plates on both sides that makes me angry.

I just read page two. My landing spot is apparently way off. If you hang your arms by your side, your elbow should mark where the bar should descend to. Well, that's upper abs for me. I'm probably like mid chest.

I may seriously have to completely re-learn bench over the next few days.

KY

m11

Yea I feel you. No big deal though. I've been on a cut for the last two months or so, and about a month ago that article came out. I've been doing something similar, but once I started using those techniques, I noticed a sizable performance jump.

I'm sure there are arguments for and against that style of bench pressing, I'm very happy with that one. If you choose to give it a shot, you'll get the hang of it within a few sessions.

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These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, do not constitute medical advice, and are not official or authorized comments by
LG Sciences, LLC.

gtbmed

I think that style of pressing is much better overall. Less stress placed on the shoulders and more recruitment of the triceps.

Flat benching with elbows out puts a lot of stress on the front portion of the triceps and it can lead to some imbalances IMO.

Thanks for making this thread though. I'm really going to evaluate my form over the next few days.

gtbmed's strength journal

kyoun1e

Ok, so I just gave this technique a shot. I basically did four light sets with the bar, 95, 115, and 135. I tried to focus on the following:

1. Digging heels in underneath.
2. Arching my back.
3. Flexing my lats and digging them in while arching.
4. Decending to the lower portion of the chest / upper abs.
5. Trying to tuck my elbows in more.
6. "Pushing the bench away from me"
7. Finishing with the bar more towards the top of my chest.

Man, this felt wierd.

I honestly don't see how in the hell anyone can completely tuck their elbows in. I found that I was tucking somewhere in the middle. This may have to do with my grip which is wide. I tried a narrower grip and it made it easier to tuck.

Curious where others find their elbows here.

I'm going to try this again and see how it goes with heavier weight.

KY

kyoun1e

Tried this with heavier weight/moderate intensity today. It feels awkward.

I keep hearing that you should be benching more with this technique because you use your triceps more. True? In my case, not true. Feel like I'm starting from scratch. I'm sure this takes some getting used to, but there's no doubt that right now I can bench more with my elbows flared out a bit more where I'm lowering the bar more to my mid-chest.

KY

juggernaut

you need to find out what works better for you. Try cycling the grips, elbows in, elbows out..any combination. Find what is more effective for you.

kyoun1e

Yeah, I know.

Thing is, I don't want to futz around with experiments too much on my next UD2 round.

I may stick with flat bench for depletion and tension workouts, but I may just say screw flat bench for now on power workouts and go with dumbells for a change. I'd still do incline bench and dips as well. That should be plenty for chest anyways.

Undecided though.

KY

juggernaut

I usually ditch the flat bench, as I have seen better results and less injury with inclines and dips.

kyoun1e

I think that does it.

I think I'm ditching it.

What I think I may do is keep it for tension and keep experimenting. The intensity level on the tension workout isn't so much that I can't both experiment and accomplish the goal of the workout.

For power, get rid of bench and replace with flat bench dumbells which I haven't done in a long time. I can basically start from scratch there with zero history or expectations. Could be refreshing and would allow me to better gauge strength gains or losses in the next UD2 round.

KY

juggernaut

the majority of the time and when I am with clients, I prefer dumbbells over most anything.

Lozowskij

I also have a question about benching:

After wrestling I began benching what I had before, 215 x 5 reps. Then after track had finished and school was over I began doing a 5 day routine (chest, back, legs, shoulders, arms). After about 2 weeks of this I started to increase my bench a lot. I went up to 220x 6 reps, then got stuck at 225 x 6 for a while. So I took a week break and after that break I benched 235 x 8 reps NO PROBLEM. Now(2 weeks later), suddenly, I can barely lift 215. I haven't been getting as much sleep and my eating has been a little wierd, but why have I lost so much weight off my bench?

juggernaut

Any number of factors could be it. But if I took a rough guess, youre tired and you've been eating weird. Be one of those guys who has a complex cant-get-on-to-the-internet problems with his computer and the first thing he does, BUT DOESNT, is check to see if the cable is secure in the back of the pc.

Merkaba

How many calories are you eating daily?

Ban 2 1/2 's !!!!!!
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DIVINITUS

I like the video, but the form he uses would be impossible for me. I had my ACL replaced a few years ago and right knee can't bend enough to put the feet where he has them in the video...sucks, I would be interested to try it otherwise.

"Can you please just shut the fuck up? You're blocking what could otherwise be a good thread discussion. No one cares about your shit " Juggernaut

gtbmed

I've been practicing this form and, while it's not natural for me yet, I think it will help my bench press numbers in the long run.

I took a few good things from the video. First, it's really important to grip the bar correctly and keep your wrists in the correct position when you move the bar. My wrists were hurting a bit when I was benching, but I realized that my palms were rolling back and I wasn't putting them in a good position. I changed it up and it's felt better since.

Also, bending your arms at the elbows first can feel awkward, but doing so really helps to keep them tucked throughout the descension of the lift.

gtbmed's strength journal

kyoun1e

I've been trying to tuck my elbows in a little and lower the bar to the bottom of my chest/top of my abs. I'm finding this movement REALLY strange.

Is this what you do with this form?

Maybe I'm just not used to this but it hardly feels like I'm working my chest.

KY

juggernaut

hows the back doing?

gtbmed

Like he states in the article, you want to lower the bar to the spot where your elbows fall when you stand up. For me, that's upper abdominals. I've found that it's easier to hit this spot when my back is arched.

I think the movement can feel strange because it's so different from what a lot of people have been taught or have tried as far as bench pressing. It may just take a small adjustment to get used to the form.

How tight are you keeping your back? I think you really have to squeeze the lats and traps to get this down correctly. Also, what angle do you think your elbows are making with your body when you lower the weight?

My elbows are pretty tight, I'd say fewer than 45 degrees from my body. I feel a pretty big load on my chest and my triceps are feeling it more. I'm feeling a lot less stress on my shoulders, which is a good thing for me. Like I said, I think bending first at the elbows helps keep them tucked during the descent.

gtbmed's strength journal

kyoun1e

Back improving.

Got through UD2 depletion the last couple days somehow. I still somehow have to do some quad work...squats and/or leg presses. Saved the worst for last.

KY

kyoun1e

I think I"m about 45 degrees.

I really try to slam my shoulder blades into the bench now and arch up so I'm much tighter than I used to be.

The wierdest part is the lowering of the bar to that spot on the upper abs/lower chest. As I'm lowering and then raising it just "feels" like I'm hitting something other than my chest. Also, on the ascent, I'm arching the bar so I end up more near my head...and at that point I feel tightness in my chest.

I don't know, it's just strange right now. And I feel weak. Going to keep at it.

KY

juggernaut

Kevin, it sounds like youre going to low. I personally have found that right above the nipple area is the "sweet spot" for me. It's that, and the shoulder blades crunching on to the bench plate that really hit it well, for me at least.