phoenix05

Hi everyone. It's been a long time since i was on here last. In that time a lot of stuff has happened, including me moving to the states in around 14-15 weeks.

Right now I'm in Australia and am trying to get in really good shape before i leave. Basically i want to get ripped. I don't much care how much i can lift, or anything like that, i just want to bulk up a bit and lose the fat.

I've just started the program outlined in the "Hard Body Plan" from a men's health book. It seems like it's pretty thorough and makes a lot of sense, but i wanted to see if this was the best way to go.

Firstly here are my stats :

Chest: 41 inches
Forearm: 11 Inches
Waist: 39 inches
Thigh: 24.5 inches
Hip: 39.5 inches
Calve: 16.5 inches
Biceps: 13.5 inches
Neck: 14.5 inches

I like how my legs are right now. They are far stronger than i need them to be. They are big enough and i don't particularly want them any bigger, however my upper body stinks. I don't have a chest at all, and i really want to increase the overall size of my upper body. At the same time i want to cut up as much as possible. On my last BF % i was over 21%. I think closer to 25%. I weigh 210 pounds right now and really want to get down to around 185.

So keeping all of this in mind what would you recommend? I'm trying to decide whether to bulk up as much as i can for around 11-12 weeks and then cut up after that, or try and lose the fat as well as adding the lean muscle. What would you do?


The plan I'm on right now suggests doing 3 sets of 6-10 reps. The workout is 4 days a week with around 13 exercises each session. I won't go into each move they suggest, but from most people's opinions it seems to be pretty good. They also have it broken down, so that if you want to personolize it, you can. For example for me, i might not do any leg sessions, but add an extra upper body session per week.

The diet seems pretty good. For weight loss they want me to eat 2755 calories, and to add weight i need to eat 3855. Which way should i be going? I definitely need to lose some fat, but i don't want to do it at the detriment of actually adding the size I'm after also.

From some research my goals for the 12 weeks are:

Chest: 46 inches
Forearm: 13.5 Inches
Waist: 32 inches
Thigh: 24.5 inches
Hip: 37 inches
Calve: 16 inches
Biceps: 17 inches
Neck: 16 inches

Weight: 185 Pounds

Is 12 weeks a realistic aim? Or is that far beyond what i could actually achieve. I have the motivation, and also have a friend who is just as keen as i am to do it all with me. Can i increase my body this much and also lose the inches around my waist etc?


How would you suggest i best go about it?

jmorrison

Hey bud, nice to have you back.

As to your questions, I won't comment on the diet or exercise, basically because I don't yet have the knowledge to comment on it, but I will say that 12 weeks seems a little quick for the results you want.

A 6 inch loss on your waist MAY be possible, although that's an awful big reduction, but I would say that any gains you make on the muscle end of it will be minimal if any during your period of weight loss.

A 4 inch gain on your biceps and chest is quite a bit of muscle mass to add, let alone while running a caloric deficit to cut fat.

Just my opinion, but I think you should look into Built's programs, and choose a more short term goal of either fat loss, OR muscle gain, and not try to do both at once.

Good luck!

jmorrison

Also on your goals you state that you want a 32 inch waist, and 37 inch hips. I may be reading your post incorrectly, but assuming you are a man, that would be odd.

phoenix05

Yeah that was a typo! Thanks for that, i didn't notice.

I should have probably explained my situation a bit more. The goals i put down are my ultimate goals. I would like to reach them as soon as possible, however i just wanted to have something that i can strive for. I want to get as far as i can in the 13 weeks that i have.

I have a 13 week block right now that i can fully focus on this and this alone, and i wanted to use it the right way. After that i will have around a month where i will be traveling, and then i get another 18-20 weeks where i will pick up where i left off.

I really just want to get the best out of the time i have before i travel.

I should probably point out that i have lifted before, and so i definitely wouldn't consider myself a beginner, however it was very sports specific so this type of lifting is a little different.

jmorrison

Ok, so what are your short term goals? Fat loss, or muscle gain?

phoenix05

So by that response I'm guessing doing both in a 13 week time frame isn't going to work

If that is the case then i know i'd like to add a bit of size to my upper body in particular. I just have such a lack of definition in my upper body. My lower body is so different it's almost comical.

So to answer your question, muscle gain would be my number one goal, with fat loss a close second.

jmorrison

Sounds like a plan! Most of the folks here would suggest for you to cut a bit prior to bulking, since you are over 20% BF, but regardless of your goals, you have to start somewhere.

Ok, start here:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/ne...1-newbies.html (*** READ ME FIRST - Homework #1 for Newbies ***)

I know you stated that you are not new to lifting, but this article will help you get back on track and offers some good information to assist you in reaching your goals quickly.

phoenix05

Thanks for the link! I'd already read that one previously but it's good to have another read.

Well I'd like to get the best results possible, so if cutting first would help I'm happy to do that. I guess I'm just a little confused as to what's the best way to proceed.

Once I'm finished the travel around mid december, i will have much more time to get any results that i need to get. Right now i really would like to get the best results in the 13 weeks.

I guess i have the goals up top, and would like to get as close as possible for the next few months, and then after the break i can fully concentrate on it all with a lot more time on my hands.

I'm just getting confused on the best way to make a change before i travel. Should i cut, or focus on muscle gain?

I think it's pretty clear that i need to lose inches around the waist, but it's also clear i need to add inches around the upper body area.

Is it stupid to go on an intense weights program, and doing some cardio, while eating with a calorie deficit to lose fat? Is that a waste of time? Or is there scope to add a few inches at the same time.

jmorrison

That isn't a waste of time at all, and is in fact what I did to lose 55lbs.

I kept the workouts short and intense, so that I didn't deplete myself too much, and did a 4 day split. I lowered my calories, while keeping up the protein. I did only minimal cardio, with HIIT twice a week.

The weightlifting will help you keep the muscle you have while cutting, and I actually managed to gain a LITTLE mass at the beginning, as my body was basically back to being a beginner after a long hiatus.

phoenix05

Thanks jmorrison.

I think i would be able to do a lot of the cardio if that makes any difference. What i do have on my side is time for the next 13 weeks. I would have about an hour in the morning, an hour in the middle of the day and about 2-3 hours in the evening to do whatever it takes. I'm not sure that will make a difference but it's something to note if anyone wants to help!

kyoun1e

If you're at 21 - 25% BF, bulking is a terrible, terrible idea.

I'd recommend a serious fat loss diet if you want to get "ripped" and then once you get sub-15% BF to then start thinking about bulking.

Some options:

* Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss program
* Some kind of every other day refeed program where you have an overall weekly caloric deficit, but eat above maintenance and work out heavy (but with low volume) twice a week; and throw a depletion workout and some cardio in there.

As an aside, I recently went from 209 lbs to 184 and maintained my strength. And it took me 8 weeks of training followed by two weeks of rest followed by another 4 weeks of training.

And I probably could have gotten there quicker if I had chosen the right program to start.

KY

kyoun1e

That's because it's covered by a layer of fat. Bulking will worsen this.

Cut the fat my friend.

1. Go 5 weeks on a resistance training / fat loss diet
2. week break
3. Repeat 1.
4. Week to prepare for trip.
5. Enjoy trip.

KY

Zeus100

These are interesting, sounds like a former speed skater, and unless that's true (or something very similar) I wouldn't neglect lower body training for upper body training. Heck, even if it is true, I wouldn't.

From a pure effort point of view the "lower body" compound exercises (squats, deadlifts) engage far more of your entire body, and are far more effective for changing your body. Over all these compound movements are what will bring you the best results (long or short term).

Who are "they" and how did you come up with that number? What is your current activity level? If only moderately active, these seem a bit high for 210 lbs, with 21-25% BF.

Also remember, a general rule, long cardio sessions are muscle "eating", so be cautious of those as a primary focus if you want to add significant muscle.

Most effective method to long term fat loss is a gain in LBM, and therefore base metabolic rate. So a well thought out balance of eating and training (and cardio as an option) is essential. Mixing super high volume/intensity with low caloric intake will set you backwards.

To get the most effective advice, you might want to post the exercises as well. 13 seems like a lot each session, depend on tempo and rest, could take forever to complete.

Anyway, you begin to see how the eating and training parts are all linked.

phoenix05

I think this seems to be the general consensus so I'm thinking i might try and get to 15% BF before i do anything else.

I'm assuming losing this amount of BF will take the entire 13 weeks at the very least to do, so I'm guessing i should just really focus on that. Is there a goal i should be setting for myself. Is getting from around 21-23% to 14% realistic in that time frame? This is the first time i've had a set BF % that i'm aiming for, rather than a specific weight.

Yep your pretty close on the sport. It was very lower body specific so i've managed to get my legs in great shape. I love how they look, and if possible wouldn't like to add anymore to them

Will this add size to my lower body? Or should i just stop worrying about that, and do the squats etc.? I'm happy to do them, i just want to get the right stuff for my body.

I am following a book i was given by a trainer at my gym. It was mainly to give me a better understanding of a few different things, but it also had a program, and a diet. I will post up all the info this afternoon on the diet, and training info.

So i should avoid the cardio and just do the weights and get my diet spot on? I don't mind doing cardio, in fact i enjoy it. I also have a lot of time to focus on this so that's not the issue. As i said before i have around 4-5 hours a day i can be spending on this, so i want to get the most out of my time.


I am having my BF% and a few other things done today in about 4 hours, so i will be able to post everything after that. I have been trying to lose fat for around 9 weeks now, and i started out at 223pounds. I was 210 last time i checked, but i haven't checked the BF % since i started so I'm curious about it now.

I think most of you are saying to go the cutting route before i think about bulking up. I'm happy to take the advice as it seems to be the general consensus.

phoenix05

Ok so i said i'd post my results and everything else so here goes. When i went in originally i weighed 216 poinds, and today i am 205.5, so that's not a bad start.

My BF% was 27.8% and is now 22.3%, so apparently all the weight loss was fat and not a thing in muscle, which is great, but seems a little surprising really.

As far as the diet, i was recommended for losing fat to eat 2755 calories, with 172g of protein, 61g fat, and 379g carbs. This is what i've stuck to for the past few days, so i'm not totally sure of the results so far. When i lost all the fat resently i had no diet worked out at all. I just ate when i was really hungry and tried to eat healthy. No science to that at all. I'm curious to know thoughts on the current split up of the diet.

Here's a more thorough breakdown:

Breakfast -

1 cup fat free yogurt
1 ounce low fat granola
1 teaspoon flaxseed oil
1 ounce toasted plain wheat germ

Lunch -

1 cup lettuce
1 tomato
1 medium carrot
2 tablespoons light caesar dressing
3 ounces ham
1 medium pair

Dinner -

3 ounces of chicken breast
1/2 cup of mixed frozen vegetables
1 baked potato
1 teaspoon butter
1/2 cup of strawberries

Morning snack -

3/4 cup instant oatmeal
1 cup fat free milk
1 ounce toasted plain wheat germ
3 ounces unsweetened blueberries

Afternoon snack -

2 teaspoons reduced fat peanut butter
2 celery stalks
8 ounces fat free yogurt
1/2 ounce toasted plain wheat germ
1 ounce raisins

That's it for food. I feel much better in terms of my energy levels than i did previously but before that i had no diet whatsoever, so anything was a step up.

In terms of the weights program, there is an intermediate and an advanced. I was planning on starting with the intermediate for 4 weeks and then doing the advanced.

Intermediate: Cardio Warm up, and then a warm up set on each eaxercise, adn then aim for 3 sets of 6-10 reps which includes the warm up set. During the concentric phase is to a count of four.

Day 1: Arms and Shoulders

1. overhead press
2. upright row
3. side deltoid raise
4. Dumpbell kick back
5. preacher curl
6. forearm curl
7. reverse forearm

Day 2: Rest

Day 3: Butt, Thighs and Legs

1. Hack Squat
2. Leg curl with ankle weights
3. Leg extension with ankle waights
4. Heel raise with dumbbells
5. Ankle flexion with weight
6. Stationary lunge with dumbbells
7. Lateral lunge with barbell

Day 4: Rest

Day 5: Chest, abs, and back

1. Incline Bench
2. Dumbbell fly
3. One arm Dumbbell
4. T-Bar row
5. Dumbbell trunk twist
6. Oblique trunk rotation with weight plate
7. Dumbbell side bend

Day 6&7: Rest


Advanced: Same as intermediate with adding in 1-2 partial reps when you reach failure.

Day 1: Legs, Butt, Thighs, Chest, Triceps, Abs

1. Squat
2. Hack Squat
3. Leg Curl with ankle weights
4. Leg extension with ankle weights
5. Heel raise with dumbbells
6. ankle flexion with weight plate
7. stationary lunge with dumbbells
8. Incline bench
9. Dumbbell fly
10. French Curl
11. Rowing Crunch with ankle weights
12. Oblique trunk rotation with weight plate

Day 2: Back, Shoulders, biceps, and forearms

1. Upright row
2. Side Deltoid
3. Shrug
4. Front deltoid raise
5. Behind the neck press with barbell
6. T-Bar row
7. Dumbbell swing
8. wide grip row
9. One arm dumbbell row
10. Preacher curl
11. Reverse grip barbell curl
12. Forearm curl
13. Reverse forearm

Day 3&4: Rest

Day 5: Legs, butt, thighs, chest, triceps, and abs

1. Front Squat
2. Good morning
3. Duck squat with dumbbell
4. leg curl with ankle weights
5. dumbbell power lunge
6. Seated Heel raise with barbell
7. ankle flexion with weight plate
8. lateral lunge with barbell
9. decline bench press
10. Dumbbell fly
11. Dumbbell kick back
12. Leg raise with ankle weights
13. Oblique trunk rotation with weight plate

Day 6: Back, shoulders, biceps, and forearm

1. Dumbbell raise
2. Lying side deltoids raise
3. shrug
4. Front deltoids raise
5. Overhead press with barbell
6. wide grip row
7. Good morning
8. toe touch with weight
9. One arm dumbbell row
10. Alternating dumbbell curl
11. Wrist raise
12. Reverse wrist raise


Both the intermediate and the advanced have 2-3 weeks of exercises to go through, but they are nearly all the same as these shown here.

So any help would be fantastic! I think from the general view from people that i should definitely aim to get to 15% BF before i start to try and bulk up, but is the programs here going to help me do that the fastest way?

Thanks again!

jmorrison

Good idea. Another benefit to this is that you may partition better when bulking if you start a little leaner.

Dropping 6-7% BF MAY be a bit extreme. You want to aim for about 2-2.5lbs of weight loss per week to minimize muscle loss. At this rate it may take you a little longer than 13 weeks, but you will be happier with the results in the end.


This is just my opinion, but squats are just so damned beneficial, I would just say do them and hell with it. Big wheels aren't a bad thing! You will most likely lose some size on them anyway while cutting.


Look into HIIT training. Built turned me onto it a couple months ago when my fat loss had slowed down, and it cranked it right back up again. I only do 2 days a week of it, and am still steadily losing.

Good luck!

You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

kyoun1e

I think this could be acheivable. There's no question you can lose 1.5 - 2lbs per week, but I'm not sure you can do it at a caloric level of 2,755. That seems like a high caloric intake if you want to make your goal fat loss.

At 205 x say 15, you're maintenance calories are probably ballpark 3,100. At 2,755 you're looking at a daily caloric deficit of 350 and a weekly deficit of 2,500ish. Not bad, but I think you could do better.

If you want to lose 1.5 - 2lbs of fat per week you may want to cut cals back 40-50% say 4-5 days per week and then do refeeds in between so you don't go insane/crash your hormones/lose LBM. In this way, you can get that deficit over 3,500 cals.

That's a ridiculously high number of carbs daily for a fat loss diet as well. On diet days, I'd go low on carbs, heavy on protein (1.5g/lbm) and then when you need a refeed eat at maintenance or a little higher, up the carbs (around workouts), and keep protein at 1g/lbm at least.

Probably confusing as hell I bet.

KY

gtbmed

Squats are a great full-body exercise. They'll work your legs, sure, but they'll develop a strong upper and lower back as well.

gtbmed's strength journal

kyoun1e

Jeesh...this program looks like a trainwreck for fat loss.

I'd focus first on setting up the diet right. Then align the workout.

In general, if you're looking for fat loss, you want to lift heavier and with high intensity and cut back the volume of the workout. You need to convince the muscle that there's a reason to stick around, but on low cals, you're not going to want to beat the crap out of yourself.

Stick to major movements. Compounds.

Two different forearm exercises? I don't think so.

KY

Zeus100

I'm not sure I see anything here that gets close to 170g of protein. I'm guessing 70-80 in this example (only real sources are 3 oz of chicken and ham)

A usual recommendation, which I found very useful is to sign-up for a free account at FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal
I'm upgraded to the (pay) premium and desktop versions (Fitday PC).

The most important thing is to track and adjust (over the appropriate, not daily, duration).

I tend to think like most here that a lower carb is more satisfying, but mostly it's about comfort and what works for you. There are dozens (hundreds?) of threads here debating low/high/no carb/fat/protein concepts. Do a quick search, or just scroll back a bit and you'll find a lot.


There seems to be a lot of accessory exercises there. Not to offend, but a funny thing I read once was a comment on observing a fat guy in the gym doing wrist curls. They drew an analogy to totaling your car, but wanting to fix the stereo first. Don't worry about the fine "accessory muscles" when the major muscle groups are lacking. If you do want some, do AN exercise for that part once a week, not 2-4 times a week.

Nothing wrong with some ab work, but it also doesn't need to be worked every day. A good set of compound exercises will give you a tonne of core muscle development.

I'm not sure, given your description or your lower body, that any leg exercise with ankle weights is meaningful. (although a concentric 4 count is challenging)

Just as a comparison, here is my just getting started program... you can see I've gone with a KISS approach.

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/tr...ue-please.html (Program Critique please)


HIIT is a good option, long duration "steady state" cardio is a bad thing (and boring)

I also like jmorrisons comment on squats,
You can probably get some advice from those who know better on how to tailor that part of your program to avoid additional size.

Ben dur

OVER 300g OF CARBS A DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bring that down significantly and youll see better results
even if you increase fats in doing so

300g of carbs seems more like a weight GAIN number to me

i only consume around 200g a day, and my goals are MAINT/PERFORMANCE

im not even trying to loose anything (if anything i expect gains)and im consuming significantly less carbs, and roughly the same number of total calories as you

thought i consume SIGNIFICANTLY more protien and fat

im comfortable with
250g Protein
100g Fat
200g Carbs

100g of carbs are directly before/after i workout
20g of carbs are fiber

so im only consuming around 80g of carbs elsewhere in my diet

around here people say it doesnt matter when you consume them, but i find that their most comfortable in the morning and early afternoon

21
5'11"
~175lbs
8% on elec. analyzer

phoenix05

Ok now I'm significantly more confused You think you're doing a good thing starting something like this and now it looks like it's no where near what i need to do!

So i think what i need to do is this:

1. Get a diet that is higher in protein, lower in carbs, and lower in Calories. Track my diet. (I'm using a blog to track all of this, but i will look into fit day if it provides much more)

2. Get a workout that has more compound exercises, and in less time than the current one

3. Do HIIT cardio instead of longer cardio (Not sure how many times a week is good here for fat loss!)

Is that about right?

Now to find the proper programs! thanks again everyone i appreciate it all. I'm very keen to get these goals but clearly i have no idea what I'm doing!!!!!

jmorrison

Phoenix, you can literally find everything you need right on this site.

Cowpimp, Gazhole, Pfunk, Built (to seriously only name a few) all have programs built from the ground up. They cover diet, resistance training, HIIT, EVERYTHING you need.

Fitday is the best thing you can do for diet. It will help you track what you are eating with a much higher level of precision and planning than a regular journal (at least until you learn your foods).

As far as your question about HIIT, personally I do it twice a week, with 2-3 days in between. This is about all I can stand. Maybe I am overdoing it, but when I go through a HIIT routine, I am spent, and I feel beat up for at least a day after, but I will tell you honestly, that the fat is still flying off.

Diet + HIIT = lean.

You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

phoenix05

Thanks! I have started going through as much as i can on this site. I'll aim to do the HIIT routine twice a week too. I have time to spare so i can really focus on the diet and recovery after that.

With so many different workouts it's hard to know which one to use right now, but I'm sure after i read through as much as i can i 'll get a good idea of what's best for me. As i said in the previous post, i'll aim to get the diet right, then start the HIIT routine, and then hit the resistance work.

Zeus100

Read and do searchs, it's the best thing you can do. Remember as a beginner, keep it simple. You'll body will need to begin to adapt to it's new lifestyle.

Don't wait too long on the resistance training.

I think you'll find that most the advanced people here generally have a fairly simple routine, although they may change it from time to time, as they move through a program.

Sounds like your on the right track. Don't try to get the plan perfect, get it pretty good and make tweaks (based on your own observations and feedback from people here).

Do try to get your form for each exercise perfect though!

Google, Wikipedwa and U-tube will be your friends too.

Good luck.

kyoun1e

I actually would avoid HIIT if you have muscle mass and want to preserve it. If you diet hard, cut cals severly, and workout heavy a couple times a week AND do HIIT you are going to eat away muscle. Steady state cardio would be fine. And to be honest, if you set up your diet and deficit correctly, that will do most of the fat burning work, not cardio...especially at your BF level.

Lots of people have differing opinions on HIIT though. My two cents.

KY

jbish8

Just curious......Why exactly would this be odd?

jmorrison

Maybe I am reading into it wrong, but wouldn't a 32 inch waist and 37 inch hips be a strange ratio on a man? Maybe not, just seems like thats a lot of hip.

You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

jmorrison

We need Built to chime in here

I do HIIT because it seems to preserve muscle better than steady state, at least for me, but I am not nearly educated enough to argue this topic in an intelligent manner, so I will just say "I know you are but what am I?" and hope someone with more knowledge jumps in!

You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

jbish8

I have a 29" waist and 38" hips and I've never been told I look odd. Personally, I think a little booty looks good on either sex. I hate flat butts, but to each their own. I just wanted the OP to feel ok about his original goal, unless it was legitimatly a typo (which I doubt). Here's what it looks like in case your interested: