Does every person have the ability to learn how to squat properly...

Stewart14 · 10-18-2009, 12:40 PM

or are there some people who are just not built to squat in the proper fashion and therefore should not do them?

I question this because, while I know that myself I am pretty inflexible, I just don't see how my body would allow me to squat properly, even if I worked on said flexibility. by properly, I mean shoulder with or slightly wider leg stance, bar up on traps and ass to grass on the decent.

Pretty much all I am able to do is set up with a pretty wide stance and barely break parallel (which is fine for powerlifting of course, but maybe not for muscle develpment in my legs).

I just wonder if some people's leverages are set up so that it is not a natural movement to squat, and doing so could cause more harm than good. these are the times I wish I didn't train at home and had access to a leg press, i would be using it exclusively if I did.

suprfast · 10-18-2009, 01:40 PM

When i first started squatting three months ago(yes first time doing a squat) i was leaning forward and not keeping the weight on my heels. I have since moved slowly and do all my squats below parallel. Just give it time. Plus, who cares about squats when you have an upper body like yours.j/k

**Built** · 10-18-2009, 02:25 PM

For such a natural movement, they can be a real bitch to learn.

Try this: do a goblet squat.
If you don't know what one is, here's a youtube:

YouTube Video

Note how the ass goes back - it's not a deep knee bend.

m11 · 10-18-2009, 03:33 PM

In terms of form, here is some good instructional stuff to compare with what you are doing.

Squat Videos - Starting Strength Wiki

I'd recommend buying the Starting Strength book as well.

Hoglander · 10-18-2009, 05:31 PM

I didn't think I could but I did. That aside, Stewart seems smart and has been at this for awhile. With the assumption that his body is different in a way that makes it harder for him as he has suggested.........

It makes me wonder about videos showing vintage bodybuilder using wood blocks under the heals. What's that about and what's the benefit of it? Would it help Stewart?

**Built** · 10-18-2009, 05:59 PM

That's a possibility, but so is my suggestion of doing a goblet squat to find the form. If you can do a goblet squat, you can - with practice - get down there on a real one. Most folks who "can't squat all the way down" - that I've seen, at least - just aren't sitting BACK enough.

I was one of 'em. I cured this problem with goblets like I mentioned, and then front squats. I did nothing but front squats for three years before returning to back squats. I'm FINALLY feeling like I have at least a half decent back-squat form.

Another trick I've noticed is that by holding the barbell lower on my back, with my hands tucked closer together than I used to and my elbows kinda flaring up and back to make a little shelf on my trap, my centre of gravity is shifted back a bit and I can sit myself down and back, thus pressing through my heels and getting myself into a more advantageous position from which to push.

Just throwing these out there on the off chance any of it helps.

Stewart14 · 10-18-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoglander

I didn't think I could but I did. That aside, Stewart seems smart and has been at this for awhile. With the assumption that his body is different in a way that makes it harder for him as he has suggested.........

It makes me wonder about videos showing vintage bodybuilder using wood blocks under the heals. What's that about and what's the benefit of it? Would it help Stewart?

thank you for pointing out this wasn't supposed to be a newbie question

I have tried putting plates under my heels before, and it definitely does keep me more upright with my back, but i also have trouble pushing through my heels when I do this, so most of the force comes from the front half of my foot. i also feel the stress mainly in my lower quads, never got knee pain from it, but i feel like it is a knee injury waiting to happen.

if I hold onto the rack and just do a squat, I can get the form down pretty good. It's when i take my hands off, that's when the problems start. I can say that i've tried to front squat and zercher squat as well, and with both of those, the same thing occurs, i need to use a wider stance or else I just can't get down into the position.

right now, the only way I can do a squat without killing my back is to take a wide foot stance, about one and a half to two times shoulder width, hold the bar at the collars (an extreme wide hand grip), and go down to parallel or very slightly below and I do this by sitting back and down...with the wide stance it's really the only way to do it, and I do get drive from my heels by doing this.

Like I said, it's pretty decent form for a powerlifter's squat, I was just wondering if there is a biomechanical reason with my body as to why I can only comfortably squat like this, and why the squat will never be a good quad exercise for me. I'm not so much into bodybuilding that I need huge quads, but I just don't like developing the big hips that go with the wide squatting, but i know even squatting like this is going to be better for my body as a whole in terms of growth as opposed to lunges or whatnot.

**Built** · 10-18-2009, 07:33 PM

Stewart, I apologize if my post made it seem I was speaking with a newbie - I've had to fix squat form for myself and for a number of my friends, and what I suggested to you was how I did this for myself.

I'll offer another weird one: can you try grabbing a couple of heavy dumbbells, sitting them on their ends on your delts and squatting that way?

And, just because I like to see myself type, have you tried box-squats?

suprfast · 10-18-2009, 10:37 PM

Stewart,
I too squat with a wide stance. It just feels more comfortable to me. Do want is comfortable first(as long as its still the right form) since there are no judges grading you on your lift

Stewart14 · 10-19-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Stewart, I apologize if my post made it seem I was speaking with a newbie - I've had to fix squat form for myself and for a number of my friends, and what I suggested to you was how I did this for myself.

I'll offer another weird one: can you try grabbing a couple of heavy dumbbells, sitting them on their ends on your delts and squatting that way?

And, just because I like to see myself type, have you tried box-squats?

no need for apologies, I didn't get that opinion from your posts anyway, I appreciate your help.

Actually, the dumbbells on the shoulder thing works pretty good for me...of course, there is a big difference between squatting a pair of 50 pound dumbbells vs a 300 pound barbell

I like box squats as well....but same thing happens, I need to go super wide with my stance. I've never tried using a high box and a narrow stance and then work my way down to lower and lower boxes however.

**Built** · 10-19-2009, 10:26 AM

There is a big difference between squatting a hundred pounds and squatting 300 lbs, but if you CAN squat properly with 100, you don't have a form issue, you have a weight issue. Back off your squats and work your way up as your form improves.

[/tough love]

Stewart14 · 10-19-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

There is a big difference between squatting a hundred pounds and squatting 300 lbs, but if you CAN squat properly with 100, you don't have a form issue, you have a weight issue. Back off your squats and work your way up as your form improves.

[/tough love]

yes, I can squat properly with 100 pounds in the fashion you prescribed to me. when the bar is on my back, that all goes out the window

m11 · 10-19-2009, 10:52 AM

Would you be opposed to providing a video from the back and the side?

suprfast · 10-19-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m11

Would you be opposed to providing a video from the back and the side?

I was just about to ask that.

Stewart, i posted a video of a few of my routines and received nothing but constructive criticism from the people that want to see me succeed. It sucked to know i was doing a workout wrong, but id rather be slapped in the face once then continue doing big weights incorrectly. Its been all up hill since, and now i find this hill is steep.

danzik17 · 10-19-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart14

yes, I can squat properly with 100 pounds in the fashion you prescribed to me. when the bar is on my back, that all goes out the window

How is your flexibility (specifically in the thoracic spine, hamstrings, and hip flexors)?

I can't speak for you, but I have a similar issue where due to a lack of flexibility I have issues with shoulder width squats. They also tend to make my lower back very sore because I don't have the flexibility to do them with 100% form.

If that's the case, I would say squat with a wide stance to keep your stength up while working on your flexibility and progress to normal squats as you become more and more flexible.

**P-funk** · 10-20-2009, 12:09 AM

The reason we test the Overhead squat in a shoulder to hip width stance with toes pointed straight ahead is to rule out those who squat wide with their feet turned out because they like to from those who squat wide with their feet turned out becasue they HAVE TO.

Big difference.

Wide stance with externally rotated feet disguises femoral internal rotation and overprontation. It also hides limitations ROM and control.

patrick

urbanski · 10-20-2009, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Stewart, I apologize if my post made it seem I was speaking with a newbie - I've had to fix squat form for myself and for a number of my friends, and what I suggested to you was how I did this for myself.

i'm one of those she's worked on to fix

Stewart14 · 10-20-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

The reason we test the Overhead squat in a shoulder to hip width stance with toes pointed straight ahead is to rule out those who squat wide with their feet turned out because they like to from those who squat wide with their feet turned out becasue they HAVE TO.

Big difference.

Wide stance with externally rotated feet disguises femoral internal rotation and overprontation. It also hides limitations ROM and control.

patrick

when you say "because they have to", are you saying that some people just have to squat wide, and no amount of work will allow them to squat narrower without pain? I guess the crux of what I am asking is that should I be putting in an effort to learn to squat with a narrow stance IF I am one of those people who HAVE to squat wide for whatever reason, and not out of preference?

suprfast · 10-20-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart14

when you say "because they have to", are you saying that some people just have to squat wide, and no amount of work will allow them to squat narrower without pain? I guess the crux of what I am asking is that should I be putting in an effort to learn to squat with a narrow stance IF I am one of those people who HAVE to squat wide for whatever reason, and not out of preference?

I want to know the exact same thing since i squat wide. I took P-funks advice and decided to try a weightless squat and it sure pulls all the muscles harder(if that explains anything)
Your problem is my problem too stewart.
kris

**P-funk** · 10-20-2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart14

when you say "because they have to", are you saying that some people just have to squat wide, and no amount of work will allow them to squat narrower without pain? I guess the crux of what I am asking is that should I be putting in an effort to learn to squat with a narrow stance IF I am one of those people who HAVE to squat wide for whatever reason, and not out of preference?

I say "because they have to" meaning "they don't have the ability to squat properly so they have to cheat their stance wide and externally rotate their feet." Those with good mobility/stability can squat either way but choose to squat wide because, most people, can put up more weight like that (it hurts the hell out of my hips though).

patrick

suprfast · 10-20-2009, 12:39 PM

Is this cheat a bad cheat or is it acceptable? Should we be working to do this text book? I know a lot of workouts end up being variations of text book. Example would be the bench press where you can fit a small mountain under the arch of a person's back.
kris

Stewart14 · 10-20-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I say "because they have to" meaning "they don't have the ability to squat properly so they have to cheat their stance wide and externally rotate their feet." Those with good mobility/stability can squat either way but choose to squat wide because, most people, can put up more weight like that (it hurts the hell out of my hips though).

patrick

Now, you will hear powerlifters tell you that this is the way you SHOULD be squatting, to get the "more powerful hip and hamstring muscles" into the movement (their words, not mine

). Is there anything fundamentally wrong with squatting this way (ie, setting oneself up for some sort of injury down the road), or is it effectively just a different movement? there is no doubt that a narrow stance below parallel squat will provide a different stimulus than a wide stance to parallel squat. does it lie in the same conversation as the difference between say a close grip bench press and a wide grip bench press?

In other words, if I really don't care about getting huge hips, does it matter in the end, or is it all just a personal preference? I guess since I lean more towards a powerlifting angle in my training than bodybuilding, I should just keep doing what works for me?

**P-funk** · 10-20-2009, 02:13 PM

Did you read what I said above about disgusing overpronation and internal femoral rotation?

apply force with heavy loads on that sort of shitty platform is a receipe for distaster.

yes, because powerlifters squat big weights....that is a great reason to do it!

Wait, how many powerlifters do you think get injured because of the things they ARE NOT doing in the gym (IE working on their mobility)?

patrick

**P-funk** · 10-20-2009, 02:16 PM

A better way to put it...

There are two types of trainers:

Those that know something is wrong but do it any way (they stick their head in the sand) and those that are two stupid to know when things are wrong so they get is all screwed up.

It sounds like you may be in the first category - it's okay, breathe deep! We have all been there before and it is incredibly hard to be objective with ourselves and our own programs (which is why you should seek out a good/smart coach) and we consistently believe that we can violate all rules that we apply to our clients. Just remember, injuries suck. I'd take the time to work on my movement problems.

patrick

suprfast · 10-20-2009, 02:57 PM

Well shit, you do make good points. Looks like im back to square -15 with squats.

Hoglander · 10-20-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart14

Now, you will hear powerlifters tell you that this is the way you SHOULD be squatting, to get the "more powerful hip and hamstring muscles" into the movement (their words, not mine

). Is there anything fundamentally wrong with squatting this way (ie, setting oneself up for some sort of injury down the road), or is it effectively just a different movement? there is no doubt that a narrow stance below parallel squat will provide a different stimulus than a wide stance to parallel squat. does it lie in the same conversation as the difference between say a close grip bench press and a wide grip bench press?

In other words, if I really don't care about getting huge hips, does it matter in the end, or is it all just a personal preference? I guess since I lean more towards a powerlifting angle in my training than bodybuilding, I should just keep doing what works for me?

Do you mean getting a huge ass? How do you get huge hips? I'm getting a bubbly butt for sure, I don't get the hip part.

njc · 10-30-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewart14

or are there some people who are just not built to squat in the proper fashion and therefore should not do them?

I question this because, while I know that myself I am pretty inflexible, I just don't see how my body would allow me to squat properly, even if I worked on said flexibility. by properly, I mean shoulder with or slightly wider leg stance, bar up on traps and ass to grass on the decent.

Pretty much all I am able to do is set up with a pretty wide stance and barely break parallel (which is fine for powerlifting of course, but maybe not for muscle develpment in my legs).

I just wonder if some people's leverages are set up so that it is not a natural movement to squat, and doing so could cause more harm than good. these are the times I wish I didn't train at home and had access to a leg press, i would be using it exclusively if I did.

Everybody is made up differently. Some people are built with an advantage in this area. Some people have certain tight and or weak muscles which compromise their form...that can usually be corrected to an extent at least. Other things cannot be corrected so easily. There are biomechanical differences between us...an example being a difference in the sharpness of the angle of the lordotic curvature of the lumbar spine which will allow certain people greater ease of "proper" motion through this technique while with others it will hinder that same very motion.

ArnoldsProtege · 10-30-2009, 10:46 PM

I have a similar problem, only it is with shoulder flexibility. Whenever I squat, it kills my shoulders and wrists during the rotation and I have to place my hands super wide, wich in turn causes me to hesitate when setting the weights back because my hands are an inch away from the metal wich in turn, sucks( and is painful)!

Not exactly the same issue, just letting you know you are not alone in your squatting woes!

Has anyone else had similar shoulder/wrist pain issues with squats?

Double D · 10-31-2009, 12:25 AM

Shoulder pain and wrist pain due to lack of flexibility?

Stewart14 · 10-31-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoglander

Do you mean getting a huge ass? How do you get huge hips? I'm getting a bubbly butt for sure, I don't get the hip part.

Well, ass and hips. If you squat wide, when you sit back, you put a bunch of the stress on your hip muscles, which I guess can be confused with ass since both are contributing to a larger back side. Hip muscles being the top, sides of your ass area. I notice it on myself, I could show you in a pic, but I think that would be considered inappropriate

. I guess the bottom line is that whichever muscles are getting bigger, your ass is just going to look bigger overall, for better or worse.

10-18-2009, 12:40 PM	#1
Stewart14 Weapon of Choice Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: in my home gym Posts: 3,606 Photos: 2	Does every person have the ability to learn how to squat properly... or are there some people who are just not built to squat in the proper fashion and therefore should not do them? I question this because, while I know that myself I am pretty inflexible, I just don't see how my body would allow me to squat properly, even if I worked on said flexibility. by properly, I mean shoulder with or slightly wider leg stance, bar up on traps and ass to grass on the decent. Pretty much all I am able to do is set up with a pretty wide stance and barely break parallel (which is fine for powerlifting of course, but maybe not for muscle develpment in my legs). I just wonder if some people's leverages are set up so that it is not a natural movement to squat, and doing so could cause more harm than good. these are the times I wish I didn't train at home and had access to a leg press, i would be using it exclusively if I did. http://futuretrainer.blogspot.com/ --My new blog!!

10-18-2009, 01:40 PM	#2
suprfast Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Merced, ca Posts: 386	When i first started squatting three months ago(yes first time doing a squat) i was leaning forward and not keeping the weight on my heels. I have since moved slowly and do all my squats below parallel. Just give it time. Plus, who cares about squats when you have an upper body like yours.j/k 5'8" 207 lbs 225lbs(6.8.09)/207lbs(10.22.09) looking for 200lbs in 25 weeks(a pound a week) Exercise Examples

10-18-2009, 03:33 PM	#4
m11 www.liftstrong.com Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: FL Posts: 857	In terms of form, here is some good instructional stuff to compare with what you are doing. Squat Videos - Starting Strength Wiki I'd recommend buying the Starting Strength book as well. Getting Started by Built LG Sciences Board Representative These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, do not constitute medical advice, and are not official or authorized comments by LG Sciences, LLC.

10-18-2009, 05:59 PM	#6
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	That's a possibility, but so is my suggestion of doing a goblet squat to find the form. If you can do a goblet squat, you can - with practice - get down there on a real one. Most folks who "can't squat all the way down" - that I've seen, at least - just aren't sitting BACK enough. I was one of 'em. I cured this problem with goblets like I mentioned, and then front squats. I did nothing but front squats for three years before returning to back squats. I'm FINALLY feeling like I have at least a half decent back-squat form. Another trick I've noticed is that by holding the barbell lower on my back, with my hands tucked closer together than I used to and my elbows kinda flaring up and back to make a little shelf on my trap, my centre of gravity is shifted back a bit and I can sit myself down and back, thus pressing through my heels and getting myself into a more advantageous position from which to push. Just throwing these out there on the off chance any of it helps. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

10-18-2009, 07:33 PM	#8
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Stewart, I apologize if my post made it seem I was speaking with a newbie - I've had to fix squat form for myself and for a number of my friends, and what I suggested to you was how I did this for myself. I'll offer another weird one: can you try grabbing a couple of heavy dumbbells, sitting them on their ends on your delts and squatting that way? And, just because I like to see myself type, have you tried box-squats? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

10-18-2009, 05:31 PM	#5
Hoglander Cleaner Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 1,498 Photos: 10	I didn't think I could but I did. That aside, Stewart seems smart and has been at this for awhile. With the assumption that his body is different in a way that makes it harder for him as he has suggested......... It makes me wonder about videos showing vintage bodybuilder using wood blocks under the heals. What's that about and what's the benefit of it? Would it help Stewart?

10-18-2009, 10:37 PM	#9
suprfast Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Merced, ca Posts: 386	Stewart, I too squat with a wide stance. It just feels more comfortable to me. Do want is comfortable first(as long as its still the right form) since there are no judges grading you on your lift 5'8" 207 lbs 225lbs(6.8.09)/207lbs(10.22.09) looking for 200lbs in 25 weeks(a pound a week) Exercise Examples

10-19-2009, 10:26 AM	#11
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	There is a big difference between squatting a hundred pounds and squatting 300 lbs, but if you CAN squat properly with 100, you don't have a form issue, you have a weight issue. Back off your squats and work your way up as your form improves. [/tough love] Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

10-19-2009, 10:52 AM	#13
m11 www.liftstrong.com Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: FL Posts: 857	Would you be opposed to providing a video from the back and the side? Getting Started by Built LG Sciences Board Representative These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, do not constitute medical advice, and are not official or authorized comments by LG Sciences, LLC.

10-20-2009, 12:09 AM	#16
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,699	The reason we test the Overhead squat in a shoulder to hip width stance with toes pointed straight ahead is to rule out those who squat wide with their feet turned out because they like to from those who squat wide with their feet turned out becasue they HAVE TO. Big difference. Wide stance with externally rotated feet disguises femoral internal rotation and overprontation. It also hides limitations ROM and control. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-20-2009, 12:39 PM	#21
suprfast Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Merced, ca Posts: 386	Is this cheat a bad cheat or is it acceptable? Should we be working to do this text book? I know a lot of workouts end up being variations of text book. Example would be the bench press where you can fit a small mountain under the arch of a person's back. kris 5'8" 207 lbs 225lbs(6.8.09)/207lbs(10.22.09) looking for 200lbs in 25 weeks(a pound a week) Exercise Examples

10-20-2009, 02:13 PM	#23
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,699	Did you read what I said above about disgusing overpronation and internal femoral rotation? apply force with heavy loads on that sort of shitty platform is a receipe for distaster. yes, because powerlifters squat big weights....that is a great reason to do it! Wait, how many powerlifters do you think get injured because of the things they ARE NOT doing in the gym (IE working on their mobility)? patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-20-2009, 02:16 PM	#24
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,699	A better way to put it... There are two types of trainers: Those that know something is wrong but do it any way (they stick their head in the sand) and those that are two stupid to know when things are wrong so they get is all screwed up. It sounds like you may be in the first category - it's okay, breathe deep! We have all been there before and it is incredibly hard to be objective with ourselves and our own programs (which is why you should seek out a good/smart coach) and we consistently believe that we can violate all rules that we apply to our clients. Just remember, injuries suck. I'd take the time to work on my movement problems. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-20-2009, 02:57 PM	#25
suprfast Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Merced, ca Posts: 386	Well shit, you do make good points. Looks like im back to square -15 with squats. 5'8" 207 lbs 225lbs(6.8.09)/207lbs(10.22.09) looking for 200lbs in 25 weeks(a pound a week) Exercise Examples

10-30-2009, 10:46 PM	#28
ArnoldsProtege VandelayIndustries Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 333 Photos: 1	I have a similar problem, only it is with shoulder flexibility. Whenever I squat, it kills my shoulders and wrists during the rotation and I have to place my hands super wide, wich in turn causes me to hesitate when setting the weights back because my hands are an inch away from the metal wich in turn, sucks( and is painful)! Not exactly the same issue, just letting you know you are not alone in your squatting woes! Has anyone else had similar shoulder/wrist pain issues with squats? Age:19 Height: 5'11 Weight: 190 lbs

10-31-2009, 12:25 AM	#29
Double D Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,459 Photos: 1	Shoulder pain and wrist pain due to lack of flexibility?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode