10 Week Periodized Mass program, please critique

jmorrison · 11-04-2009, 08:10 PM

Well, I had planned to hit 10% BF before doing a bulk, but I don't want to let the winter get away from me, so I will be starting it at around 13% instead. I am only wanting to do a short bulk of 8-10 weeks. During this bulk I will be taking M-drol for the first 6 weeks, and will continue with the higher calories and workload for another 2-4 weeks to try to keep any gains I may get.

This is my first adventure into periodization. I have always been a 5x5 or 3x8 kind of guy, so this may be all screwed up. I have been googling my little heart out, and there is surprisingly little information out there about this, and what is out there conflicts.

Here is the training program I have put together, please tear it apart and tell me what needs to change.

I will be doing a 3 day a week full body split with 2 days of HIIT and core work, with one day of rest. The exercises will remain the same, with volume and intensity changing week per week.

Exercises are as follows:

Day 1:
Bench Press
Dumbell Flyes
Leg Press
RDL's
Chins
Seated Rows

Day 2:
HIIT with arm/core work

Day 3:
Squat
Hamstring Curls
Military Press
Dips
Hang Cleans
Good Mornings

Day 4:
HIIT with arm/core work

Day 5:
Deadlift
One arm rows
Incline Bench
Decline Dumbell Press
Lunges
Calf Extensions

Day 6:
Off

Day 7: Start again

Intensity and Volume will be:

Week 1:
3-6 x 15 @ 55%

Week 2:
3-6 x 12 @ 65%

Week 3:
3-6 x 10 @ 75%

Week 4:
3-6 x 8 @ 80%

Week 5:
3-6 x 6 @ 85%

Week 6:
3-6 x 5 @ 90%

Week 7:
3-6 x 4 @ 90-95%

Week 8:
3-6 x 2 @ 95%

Week 9:
1RM

Week 10:
Deload

Any thoughts or suggestions would be great. I am all ears!

**CowPimp** · 11-05-2009, 10:36 AM

You could beef up the upper body pulls here some.

You are going to kill yourself in the later week. 6 sets of 2 reps for 6 different exercises? If you rest a couple minutes in between, that will take forever. Not to mention the volume at that intensity is super high!

Cleans should usually be done at the beginning of a workout.

Pick one lift that reach into the 90+% range and the rest should be of at least somewhat lower intensity. At 6 sets of 2, that is A LOT of volume for ever one lift at that intensity level!

jmorrison · 11-05-2009, 06:43 PM

Roger, so basically stick with the bench/deads/squats at the high intensity, and be a little more realistic with the other exercises? I was wondering about that, thanks for the advice.

Should I move the cleans ahead of the squats, or just higher up on the list? Squat is the hardest lift for me due to an old injury, and I usually try to do it first to make sure my form stays very tight.

Any suggestions on the upper pulls? I am somewhat limited by my equipment selection. I have dumbells, a chin bar, a smith machine, and a power rack with a barbell.

Thanks much Cowpimp.

Phineas · 11-05-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmorrison

Day 1:
Bench Press - UPPER HORIZONTAL PUSH
Dumbell Flyes - UPPER HORIZONTAL PUSH (ISOLATION)
Leg Press - LOWER PUSH
RDL's - LOWER PULL
Chins - UPPER VERTICAL PULL
Seated Rows - UPPER HORIZONTAL PULL

Day 2:
HIIT with arm/core work

Day 3:
Squat - LOWER PUSH
Hamstring Curls - LOWER PULL (ISOLATION)
Military Press - UPPER VERTICAL PUSH
Dips - UPPER VERTICAL PUSH
Hang Cleans - UPPER VERTICAL PUSH
Good Mornings - LOWER PULL

Day 4:
HIIT with arm/core work

Day 5:
Deadlift - LOWER PULL
One arm rows - UPPER HORIZONTAL PULL
Incline Bench - UPPER HORIZONTAL PUSH
Decline Dumbell Press - UPPER HORIZONTAL PUSH
Lunges - LOWER PUSH
Calf Extensions - ISOLATION* (this is fine)

Day 6:
Off

Day 7: Start again
------------------------------
Just some food for thought....

Upper: Horizontal Push - 3 + 1 isolation
Horizontal Pull - 2
Vertical Push - 3
Vertical Pull - 1

Lower: Push - 3
Pull - 3 + 1 isolation

You have your planes of motion generally well-balanced, but you'll want to include more upper vertical pulls. Aim for an even number of exercises per plane of motion.

Also, I colour-coordinated the exercises to also show that you might want to rearrange your exercises for more working balance (e.g. not having all your vertical pushes on one day).

I just started an upper/lower push/pull program and, while you may be doing full-body here, let me tell you: you won't need all that direct arm work. After two weeks my biceps are already harder. Think big..think compound.

--------------------------------------

Intensity and Volume will be:

Week 1:
3-6 x 15 @ 55%

Week 2:
3-6 x 12 @ 65%

Week 3:
3-6 x 10 @ 75%

Week 4:
3-6 x 8 @ 80%

Week 5:
3-6 x 6 @ 85%

Week 6:
3-6 x 5 @ 90%

Week 7:
3-6 x 4 @ 90-95%

Week 8:
3-6 x 2 @ 95%

Week 9:
1RM

Week 10:
Deload

This is a very linear approach. You'll find you'll get better results if you change these up. Swap these around so you have mini-cycles/peaks within this program. For instance, week 1 @ 60%, week 2 @ 75%, week 3@ 85%, week 4 @ 65%....this will really keep your body guessing and also allow not only your muscles but CNS to slowly and safely adapt to ever-changing yet (in the long run) increasing work loads.

I wrote all my stuff in the quote box...I just have to write something here because it won't let me post otherwise, lol.

jmorrison · 11-05-2009, 08:11 PM

Thank you for taking the time to help. Some questions. Aren't hang clean/deadlift/good mornings upper pull? Thats how I had them classified anyway.

I like the idea of changing up the periodization.

danzik17 · 11-05-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmorrison

Thank you for taking the time to help. Some questions. Aren't hang clean/deadlift/good mornings upper pull? Thats how I had them classified anyway.

I like the idea of changing up the periodization.

Deads might work your upper back, but I'd still classify them as a lower pull. Good mornings are completely a lower pull.

jmorrison · 11-05-2009, 08:48 PM

I must be calling it by a completely wrong name. In high school we called them good mornings, but it was where you leaned over with a weight on your back, similiar to where you would carry it for squat, bend at the hips and then straighten back out, flexing your lower back.

I guess it would help if I properly labeled my exercises lol.

Any ideas on replacement exercises with the equipment that I have?

Phineas · 11-05-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmorrison

Thank you for taking the time to help. Some questions. Aren't hang clean/deadlift/good mornings upper pull? Thats how I had them classified anyway.

I like the idea of changing up the periodization.

Though deadlifts work the back a great deal, they're actually primarily a hip (hamstrings and glutes) exercise. It's a lower pull.

Good Mornings are sort of a variation of a deadlift, particularly a stiff-legged deadlift. They're also lower pull.

Hang Cleans may seem like a pull because you're technically "pulling" the bar. This is how I use to think. To clear up the whole push/pull thing, think of it like this: imagine yourself in an upright position...you classify a movement based on whether -- during the concentric portion of the lift -- you're pushing the weight away from your torso in a horizontal plane (e.g. bench press) or vertical plane (i.e. shoulder press) or pulling it towards your torso in a horizontal plane (e.g. T-Bar Rows) or vertical plane (e.g. pullups).

And so, in the case of Hang Cleans, because the concentric portion of the lift is getting the weight up (i.e. AWAY FROM YOUR TORSO) it is considered an upper push. Remember, the concentric is the part of the lift in which the target muscle or muscles are contracting.

The lifts won't always fall neatly into these categories. I plan on starting Power Cleans in a few months, and they could be lower pull or upper vertical push (or maybe even pull???). Even Hang Cleans some people consider lower pull because of the hip element of the bottom portion of the concentric. I actually discussed this with some members a few weeks back and most agreed upper vertical push, seeing as how you're shrugging the weight with your shoulders and back.

If you're doing Hang Cleans already, I might as well link you to Built's Shoulder Module (Hangs are the first exercise). I've been doing this for only two weeks and I'm feeling fantastic! Take a look-see if you're interested

Got Built? » The Shoulders of Giants

jmorrison · 11-05-2009, 10:14 PM

Thank you so much. Your help has been invaluable.

I guess my only questions left are about possible changeups to the routine based on the available equipment. Anything in particular you would swap/move based on what I have to work with?

Phineas · 11-05-2009, 10:23 PM

If you're interested, here's the microcycle I put together.

Program A (1st set of exercises)

Week 1 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest

Week 2 - 70% @ 3 x 8 - 1.5 min rest

Week 3 - 80% @ 5 x5 - 2-3 min rest

Week 4 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest

Week 5 - 85% @ 4 x 4 - 2-3 min rest

Week 6 - 70% @ 3 x8 - 1.5 min rest

Program B (2nd set of exercises)

Week 7 - 55% @ 3 x 12 - 1 min rest

Week 8 - 75% @ 3 x 7 - 1.5-2 min rest

Week 9 - 85% @ 5 x 5 - 2-3 min rest

Week 10 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest

Week 11 - 80% @ 3 x 6 - 2 min rest

Week 12 (MAX ATTEMPTS) - 90-95% (100%) @ 4 x 2-3 (1*) - 3-5 min rest

*1 rep max where applicable

I follow this with a week of deloading. You could also add a week of deloading after program A.

jmorrison · 11-05-2009, 10:27 PM

That is exactly what I will follow, with the exception that I want to cut it off at 10 weeks, as I will be going back to my cut.

Thanks!

JonPiven · 11-06-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

If you're interested, here's the microcycle I put together.

Program A (1st set of exercises)

Week 1 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest

Week 2 - 70% @ 3 x 8 - 1.5 min rest

Week 3 - 80% @ 5 x5 - 2-3 min rest

Week 4 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest

Week 5 - 85% @ 4 x 4 - 2-3 min rest

Week 6 - 70% @ 3 x8 - 1.5 min rest

Program B (2nd set of exercises)

Week 7 - 55% @ 3 x 12 - 1 min rest

Week 8 - 75% @ 3 x 7 - 1.5-2 min rest

Week 9 - 85% @ 5 x 5 - 2-3 min rest

Week 10 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest

Week 11 - 80% @ 3 x 6 - 2 min rest

Week 12 (MAX ATTEMPTS) - 90-95% (100%) @ 4 x 2-3 (1*) - 3-5 min rest

*1 rep max where applicable

I follow this with a week of deloading. You could also add a week of deloading after program A.

this is a hard one

Zeus100 · 11-06-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

Week 12 (MAX ATTEMPTS) - 90-95% (100%) @ 4 x 2-3 (1*) - 3-5 min rest

*1 rep max where applicable

To clarify, at the beginging of this cycle, do you use your 1RM max to define the entire 12 week program? Or do you modify it based on success on the way.

And after week 12, if your successful at multiple reps, you redefine your 1RM based off a number of reps achieved? (not truly attempting a 1RM success?)
... using something like this? Biggly Fitness Community – Because Knowledge is Power... and fun!

Or are the first 2-3 sets "warm-up" with a true 1RM attempt on the last set?

Phineas · 11-06-2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus100

To clarify, at the beginging of this cycle, do you use your 1RM max to define the entire 12 week program? Or do you modify it based on success on the way.

And after week 12, if your successful at multiple reps, you redefine your 1RM based off a number of reps achieved? (not truly attempting a 1RM success?)
... using something like this? Biggly Fitness Community – Because Knowledge is Power... and fun!

Or are the first 2-3 sets "warm-up" with a true 1RM attempt on the last set?

I adjust with strength as the weeks go on, if necessary.

As for the max, it doesn't necessarily have to be "max". Only certain lifts I ever attempt max lifts. Even if I'm not going for a max, this is still the day I'm building to over the 12 weeks, as it's the most intense I ever work. So, I generally would perform 4 sets of 2-3 reps of everything except bench, deads, squats, leg press, maybe close-grip rows. I wouldn't care to attempt a max on pullovers or decline bench.

2-3 reps is intense enough and still gives enough of an indication of your maximal strength, anyway. I'm not a fan of max lifts. They're physically, psychologically, and emotionally taxing (and I hate asking for spots). In my opinion the only reason to do them is on the major staple lifts. I wouldn't probably attempt a max on a variation of squats or deadlifts, or floor press, for instance. I do bench, traditional deads and squats and something like leg press because they're the most basic displays of strength to measure by. The other exercises (to me, at least) are supplementary. Ever hear of the people who train purely with squats, deads, bench, pullups, and rows?

Phineas · 11-06-2009, 07:20 PM

And again, when I train on intensity as a percentage I don't think of it in terms of percent of my max. That, to me, is too calculated (yes, I know my program is written out, lol). It's more what weight at the time allows me to lift in that rep range. It just generally falls into those percentage intensities. It's all guidelines. Sometime I'm not feeling up to par and I might have to drop a couple reps here and there. Basically, my rep range determines the flow of my training. The percentages are just to show me in a succinct manner how my training varies. It's like looking at a line graph. Just to make sure I'm getting the fluctuation I need for optimal peaking.

DiGiTaL · 11-08-2009, 02:15 PM

Go through that program 4 times to have an unload week? Are you serious.

11-04-2009, 08:10 PM	#1
jmorrison Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 325	10 Week Periodized Mass program, please critique Well, I had planned to hit 10% BF before doing a bulk, but I don't want to let the winter get away from me, so I will be starting it at around 13% instead. I am only wanting to do a short bulk of 8-10 weeks. During this bulk I will be taking M-drol for the first 6 weeks, and will continue with the higher calories and workload for another 2-4 weeks to try to keep any gains I may get. This is my first adventure into periodization. I have always been a 5x5 or 3x8 kind of guy, so this may be all screwed up. I have been googling my little heart out, and there is surprisingly little information out there about this, and what is out there conflicts. Here is the training program I have put together, please tear it apart and tell me what needs to change. I will be doing a 3 day a week full body split with 2 days of HIIT and core work, with one day of rest. The exercises will remain the same, with volume and intensity changing week per week. Exercises are as follows: Day 1: Bench Press Dumbell Flyes Leg Press RDL's Chins Seated Rows Day 2: HIIT with arm/core work Day 3: Squat Hamstring Curls Military Press Dips Hang Cleans Good Mornings Day 4: HIIT with arm/core work Day 5: Deadlift One arm rows Incline Bench Decline Dumbell Press Lunges Calf Extensions Day 6: Off Day 7: Start again Intensity and Volume will be: Week 1: 3-6 x 15 @ 55% Week 2: 3-6 x 12 @ 65% Week 3: 3-6 x 10 @ 75% Week 4: 3-6 x 8 @ 80% Week 5: 3-6 x 6 @ 85% Week 6: 3-6 x 5 @ 90% Week 7: 3-6 x 4 @ 90-95% Week 8: 3-6 x 2 @ 95% Week 9: 1RM Week 10: Deload Any thoughts or suggestions would be great. I am all ears! You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

11-05-2009, 10:36 AM	#2
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,615	You could beef up the upper body pulls here some. You are going to kill yourself in the later week. 6 sets of 2 reps for 6 different exercises? If you rest a couple minutes in between, that will take forever. Not to mention the volume at that intensity is super high! Cleans should usually be done at the beginning of a workout. Pick one lift that reach into the 90+% range and the rest should be of at least somewhat lower intensity. At 6 sets of 2, that is A LOT of volume for ever one lift at that intensity level! The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... Belligerent Bovine badass YouTube Videos

11-05-2009, 06:43 PM	#3
jmorrison Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 325	Roger, so basically stick with the bench/deads/squats at the high intensity, and be a little more realistic with the other exercises? I was wondering about that, thanks for the advice. Should I move the cleans ahead of the squats, or just higher up on the list? Squat is the hardest lift for me due to an old injury, and I usually try to do it first to make sure my form stays very tight. Any suggestions on the upper pulls? I am somewhat limited by my equipment selection. I have dumbells, a chin bar, a smith machine, and a power rack with a barbell. Thanks much Cowpimp. You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

11-05-2009, 08:11 PM	#5
jmorrison Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 325	Thank you for taking the time to help. Some questions. Aren't hang clean/deadlift/good mornings upper pull? Thats how I had them classified anyway. I like the idea of changing up the periodization. You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

11-05-2009, 08:48 PM	#7
jmorrison Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 325	I must be calling it by a completely wrong name. In high school we called them good mornings, but it was where you leaned over with a weight on your back, similiar to where you would carry it for squat, bend at the hips and then straighten back out, flexing your lower back. I guess it would help if I properly labeled my exercises lol. Any ideas on replacement exercises with the equipment that I have? You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

11-05-2009, 10:14 PM	#9
jmorrison Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 325	Thank you so much. Your help has been invaluable. I guess my only questions left are about possible changeups to the routine based on the available equipment. Anything in particular you would swap/move based on what I have to work with? You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

11-05-2009, 10:23 PM	#10
Phineas Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 121	If you're interested, here's the microcycle I put together. Program A (1st set of exercises) Week 1 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest Week 2 - 70% @ 3 x 8 - 1.5 min rest Week 3 - 80% @ 5 x5 - 2-3 min rest Week 4 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest Week 5 - 85% @ 4 x 4 - 2-3 min rest Week 6 - 70% @ 3 x8 - 1.5 min rest Program B (2nd set of exercises) Week 7 - 55% @ 3 x 12 - 1 min rest Week 8 - 75% @ 3 x 7 - 1.5-2 min rest Week 9 - 85% @ 5 x 5 - 2-3 min rest Week 10 - 60% @ 3 x 10 - 1 min rest Week 11 - 80% @ 3 x 6 - 2 min rest Week 12 (MAX ATTEMPTS) - 90-95% (100%) @ 4 x 2-3 (1) - 3-5 min rest 1 rep max where applicable I follow this with a week of deloading. You could also add a week of deloading after program A. Training the mind is equally, if not more, important than training the body. If you can learn to transcend natural limitations, and force your mind into your muscle, your strength will know no bounds.

11-05-2009, 10:27 PM	#11
jmorrison Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 325	That is exactly what I will follow, with the exception that I want to cut it off at 10 weeks, as I will be going back to my cut. Thanks! You should bang this chick like a mountain gorilla ~ ROID

11-06-2009, 07:20 PM	#15
Phineas Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 121	And again, when I train on intensity as a percentage I don't think of it in terms of percent of my max. That, to me, is too calculated (yes, I know my program is written out, lol). It's more what weight at the time allows me to lift in that rep range. It just generally falls into those percentage intensities. It's all guidelines. Sometime I'm not feeling up to par and I might have to drop a couple reps here and there. Basically, my rep range determines the flow of my training. The percentages are just to show me in a succinct manner how my training varies. It's like looking at a line graph. Just to make sure I'm getting the fluctuation I need for optimal peaking. Training the mind is equally, if not more, important than training the body. If you can learn to transcend natural limitations, and force your mind into your muscle, your strength will know no bounds.

11-08-2009, 02:15 PM	#16
DiGiTaL .::.:: Legend ::.::. Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ca Posts: 1,466 Photos: 2	Go through that program 4 times to have an unload week? Are you serious. Stats: Weight: 183lbs \| BF: 13% My Cutting Journal come motivate me.

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