Thread: cheating is necessary for strength gains when on a plateau - agree or disagree?

Agree.

Lou Ravelle, in an old school book titled Bodybuilding for Everyone, recommended cheating for a few weeks to help beat a plateau.

That book has a ton of basic training advice. Just a neat little book.

I disagree. However an assisted rep is far from cheating in my book. The butt leaving the bench on a bench is bad form. I don't get that kind of approach. I've pulled my back twice doing bench,WITHOUT cheating. Then I'm forced to take time off. Why risk such a similar likelyhood with bad form or posture? Cheating on a heavy squat? No thanks. Deads? ...I'd be a hypocrite so bad I couldn't stand it.

Most people don't think about anything like a decompression or a calculated change in routine. And dang..strength isn't perpetual. It is finite.

I don't agree. Cheating is a bad option. It will only lead to injury and if not right away, a bad habit to boot.

Yes get help to squeeze one more rep out or to set the bar back on the rack.

There are many ways to break a plateau....

1. Get more rest. Have a month where you hit the gym twice per week. What? Trust me, it works. Your body and mind need the rest.

2. Shock your muscles. Do negatives. Do isolations. Do High Intensity (read up on Mike Mentzer and his High Intensity Routines). Do sevens.

3. Get a training partner. That is awesome. Everybody needs a little outside help now and again.

Never sacrifice form for a rep.

Happy Training

Disagree.

For example, if you cheat on form when benching, what you are performing is not a bench press it is something different. Not only that, but you often risk injury.

If i am overhead pressing, and i use leg drive to get that last rep out, that is not an overhead press that is a push press. The strength isn't coming from my shoulders, it is momentum from my legs.

If you let your back round on a deadlift the strength isn't coming from your muscles because they have failed to keep tension and your back has rounded - the stress is now on your spine.

Its very easy to get a weight from point A to point B through any means possible, but you aren't necessarily doing the exercise you set out to do.

If you can't do it right, you can't do it.

If you hit a plateau, identify where in the movement you are stalling and train to improve those elements.

For example, powerlifters often train using boards on their chests to isolate certain portions of the bench press rep to work out sticking points.

It also might be a flaw in your programming, so do some research and figure out why your program isn't getting the results you want.

Perhaps its an issue with your pre-workout nutrition?

Perhaps its your buildup to those max attempts?

Maybe you aren't getting enough rest?

Maybe you need to focus on a different variant of that exercise for a while to give yourself a break?

There are a million factors as to why strength increases stall, but sacrificing form for the sake of weight is dangerous, and frankly a bit of a cop-out.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Disagree.

For example, if you cheat on form when benching, what you are performing is not a bench press it is something different. Not only that, but you often risk injury.

If i am overhead pressing, and i use leg drive to get that last rep out, that is not an overhead press that is a push press. The strength isn't coming from my shoulders, it is momentum from my legs.

If you let your back round on a deadlift the strength isn't coming from your muscles because they have failed to keep tension and your back has rounded - the stress is now on your spine.

Its very easy to get a weight from point A to point B through any means possible, but you aren't necessarily doing the exercise you set out to do.

If you can't do it right, you can't do it.

If you hit a plateau, identify where in the movement you are stalling and train to improve those elements.

For example, powerlifters often train using boards on their chests to isolate certain portions of the bench press rep to work out sticking points.

It also might be a flaw in your programming, so do some research and figure out why your program isn't getting the results you want.

Perhaps its an issue with your pre-workout nutrition?

Perhaps its your buildup to those max attempts?

Maybe you aren't getting enough rest?

Maybe you need to focus on a different variant of that exercise for a while to give yourself a break?

There are a million factors as to why strength increases stall, but sacrificing form for the sake of weight is dangerous, and frankly a bit of a cop-out.

What he said.

GHCH!

I feel that there is cheating and there is bad form. Some cheating may help such as cheat curls (which Arnold recommends) but this should be in addition to strict curls. However when you start raising your butt to bench you are changing the angle and this may not result in improvements in the flat bench (not to mention the injury risks). I see so many guys trying to bench too much weight on the incline so when they pick up their butts it turns it into a flat bench. What did they accomplish? Answer, nothing as far as the incline press is concerned.
I feel that the best way to break through plateaus is to mix things up. I achieved an increase in my flat bench by making inclines my priority chest exercise. When my incline power improved, my flat bench improved as well. The muscles will react to change.
As always, everyone is different and what works for me may not work for the next guy.

Originally Posted by Gazhole

If i am overhead pressing, and i use leg drive to get that last rep out, that is not an overhead press that is a push press. The strength isn't coming from my shoulders, it is momentum from my legs.

What do you think about the idea that yes, while you are transferring effort from your shoulders to your legs, it is not a 100% transfer? Yes, on those last few reps your legs might be doing 60% of the work, but your shoulders will still be doing 40% more work than they would have been able to do without cheating.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to hear your thoughts

And lets remember that diet is a major crippler in many cases. I know it is with me!

Ravelle makes that distinction, if I recall correctly.

Originally Posted by maturemuscle

I feel that there is cheating and there is bad form. Some cheating may help such as cheat curls (which Arnold recommends) but this should be in addition to strict curls. However when you start raising your butt to bench you are changing the angle and this may not result in improvements in the flat bench (not to mention the injury risks). I see so many guys trying to bench too much weight on the incline so when they pick up their butts it turns it into a flat bench. What did they accomplish? Answer, nothing as far as the incline press is concerned.
I feel that the best way to break through plateaus is to mix things up. I achieved an increase in my flat bench by making inclines my priority chest exercise. When my incline power improved, my flat bench improved as well. The muscles will react to change.
As always, everyone is different and what works for me may not work for the next guy.

Fwiw, exrx.net agrees with those who disagree.

Cheating

Generally, attention to strict biomechanical form is highly recommended when performing exercises. This is particularly true when a trainee, not familiar with a new movement, is learning proper technique (see Skill Acquisition and Proficiency).

Cheating involves compromised form implementing unintended momentum, altered alignment, or angle of pull in effort at specific points of the exercise in effort to complete repetitions.Cheating may increase the risk of injury since it exposes the bodily structures to forces to which they are not accustomed. Interestingly, someone who consistently performs an exercise in a manner that would be considered cheating (yet abiding by the 4 Adaptation Criteria), theoretically would have less risk of injury compared to someone who cheated in the same manner, but inconsistently. So it is the inconsistent nature of cheating, or lack of adaptation, that presents a much greater risk than the actual movement and resulting bodily forces. Also see Specific Adaptation and Dangerous Exercises.

Trainees may choose to employee slight cheating techniques for the last repetition or two of a set. It has been suggested that very advanced trainees use cheating to increase training intensity, where as most other trainees use cheating as a means to decrease training intensity. Cheating should be considered an advanced training technique with inherent risks. Other safer and possibly more effective training techniques should be considered.

From Advanced Weight Training Techniques

I disagree. In the end plateaus usually arise because the lifter's form is incorrect or the lifter has a specific weakness which is causing his/her progress to stagnate. Instead of cheating, just work on that weakness.

I would say that powerlifters use a lot of methods that could be considered "cheating", but they do so in a controlled manner.

Originally Posted by maxpro2

What do you think about the idea that yes, while you are transferring effort from your shoulders to your legs, it is not a 100% transfer? Yes, on those last few reps your legs might be doing 60% of the work, but your shoulders will still be doing 40% more work than they would have been able to do without cheating.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to hear your thoughts

I would say any possible increase in intensity arising from cheating will always be impossible to quantify, so why take the risk? If you cheat theres a possibility of a benefit, as well as a possibility of injury. Using perfect form theres a certainty of a benefit, and far less chance of injury.

Plateaus can be fixed by changing other things, theres just no need to compromise form. People do it because they don't know enough to fix it without putting themselves at risk.

You don't do patch and fix work on a car with tape and string, you get the proper tools in. If you dont have the tools or the know how - get somebody who does!

Cheating? Plateau?

Eat more, sleep more, add another day off a week. Hell, take a week off if you've been stuck for a long time. And there's always the whole changing the workout.

not a big fan of the cheat, i'll have to disagree

Thanks for the input everyone. I plan to cheat on low risk exercises such as curls but will avoid cheating on any heavy compound exercises like deadlifts.