Thread: Overtraining?

If you fully accept the concept that your growth and progress happens on your rest days and that your workouts are just the triggers then you'll have no problem resting and probably be able to grasp the concept of overtraining. You can get away with doing lifts 6 days a week if you're switching muscle groups day after day but if you're lifting using the same muscles for a few days straight then I'd definately consider this over training. You're working your muscles and not letting them recover and what happens is deterioration, not growth.

My guess is that you're crossing the line of providing enough stimulus for growth and impacting recovery.

Once you've hammered a muscle group with 40-60 "contractions" you've provided enough stimulus. Anything more and you're beating yourself up.

So for example, a healthy chest workout could be:

Flat Bench: 4 x 6-8
Incline DBs: 3 x 10-12

Add in some flys, dips, decline bench, pushups...well, you're screwing yourself.

KY

Originally Posted by Raymond Sugar

I usually warm up, then progress to heavy, Then afterward i do burnouts with lighter weight. I try to do this on every exercise. I just dont feel I'm working out right if I dont feel a good burn on every exercise. IF i work out 5-6 times per week is that considered overtraining? I would work out daily if i thought I would get stronger from it. Could my body get used to that intense training if i did it consistently for a few months. I love to lift, and I dont understand the whole overtraining concept. I'm always sore the next day, It's the only way I feel I'm really working hard.

The burn is no indication of a good or bad workout. Sometimes it happens; sometimes it doesn't. Measure training quality by results, not random physiological responses.

Most lifters tend to train 3-4 days a week. That's not to say you can't train 5-6 days, as this really depends on what you're doing. A lot of programs will call for 5-6 days a week, though they're usually brief. Generally speaking (remember, I said generally..), if you're training for mass and doing it properly and intensely then 5-6 days/week for a beginner-novice (and maybe even an experienced lifter) will be too much to handle for a long period of time.

Sorness is also no indication. Sometimes it takes days to feel the soreness from training. Some muscles don't get as sore as others; my calves, for instance, never feel sore...even if I brutalize to the point that I'm limping out the gym...by the next day they're fine.

My guess is you do a lot of isolation work. If you're doing primarily or exclusively compound lifting you probably won't want to workout 5-6 days a week. I did a block training program that had me squatting 4-5 days a week on top of all sorts of other compound lifts, and I was wrecked from that.

Keep in mind: if you're training too much you WON'T get stronger. Bodybuilding is very ironically one of those sports where LESS IS MORE. I was overtraining recently with subsuquent 6 day/week programs (was too much with work, travel, girlfriend, etc) so I cut down to a 3 day full body split to give myself more free time out of the gym. ALL OF MY LIFTS HAVE GONE UP. In fact, by the second day I was lifting 10-20 lbs more on major lifts.

Don't underestimate the value of rest. You may enjoy lifting, but wouldn't you enjoy it more if you were seeing progress? Hell, I would love to pretty much live at my gym. We all love the feeling of being surrounded by all that iron and testosterone and throwing aroun some barbells. But, when you restric yourself to only 2-4 days a week when you DO get to go you're so much more motivated and rested. You'll have more energy and hunger to lift. It's like unleashing a starved pitbull into a butchers shop.

Originally Posted by kyoun1e

My guess is that you're crossing the line of providing enough stimulus for growth and impacting recovery.

Once you've hammered a muscle group with 40-60 "contractions" you've provided enough stimulus. Anything more and you're beating yourself up.

So for example, a healthy chest workout could be:

Flat Bench: 4 x 6-8
Incline DBs: 3 x 10-12

Add in some flys, dips, decline bench, pushups...well, you're screwing yourself.

KY

Thought I'd add that, while you're generally right, this would all depend on intensity. If I did 5 x 5 @ my 30 RM that's not very intense. Obviously that's an over-simplication for argument sake, but all I'm saying is that how much of a toll a workout takes depends on more than sets, reps, and time elapsed.

Some people spend 2 hours in a gym and do 1/4 of the work that other lifter did in their 20 minutes in the power cage.

Quality is a very subjective word.

Originally Posted by kyoun1e

My guess is that you're crossing the line of providing enough stimulus for growth and impacting recovery.

Once you've hammered a muscle group with 40-60 "contractions" you've provided enough stimulus. Anything more and you're beating yourself up.

So for example, a healthy chest workout could be:

Flat Bench: 4 x 6-8
Incline DBs: 3 x 10-12

Add in some flys, dips, decline bench, pushups...well, you're screwing yourself.

KY

I would do the work out that KY listed if all your trying to do is maintain the muscle you have. If you want to build muscle, you normally want to use a weight high enough that you can barely get 6 reps. and you want to make sure you rest for plenty of time between sets so that you can do at least 4 reps of that same weight again. If you do high reps, your just cutting the muscle you have, not really building a lot more. I would agree with him on that you dont need to over do the work outs on a muscle group. Just because there are 20 different ways to work your chest, doesnt mean you need to do all 20 in one workout. I would say about 5 excersises per muscle group if you going heavy weight with 4-6 reps each set and about 2-3 sets per excersise. And dont work any muscle group more then once a week. 5-6 days a week is good, but work a different group each one of those days. And make sure to have at least one rest day a week.

Additionally, I would take a week off every 8-10 weeks to let your muscle recovery catch up a little.

I usually do 6-7 exercises on the same muscle every 4 days.. This includes small warm ups, heavy weights and reping to failure..
If you're able to do bench press 6 days a week, then youre not pushing it hard enough. You shouldn't be able to lift the heavy weights again the next day with more reps than you did the day before..

Unless youve got some wheaties with test in it! lol

Originally Posted by Phineas

Thought I'd add that, while you're generally right, this would all depend on intensity. .

Good point.

Also, the optimum number of reps may depend on workout objective. For example, a depletion or metabolic workout will have you banging a muscle group a lot more than that 40-60 range.

KY

i guess I'll go with 5 exercises for each muscle group. Should I do warmups then heavy weight for mass you said. I do feel fatigued and weaker sometimes when lifting. I will stick to four days on, 3 off. ONe day chest, one day legs deads, and abs. Shoulders and Triceps, back and Biceps. does that sound pretty good? Or should I do Deads on Chest day? I am doing warmups, Heavy wieght then repping to failure now. For mass should I skip the Reps to Failure/.

I'm trying to get my Bench press up too. Should I only work chest one day or should I add in another group? I usually do Flat bench, Incline, Wide grip bench, Fly's and dips. Or should I bench Two days per week. For Back I do Pull ups and add weight, Close and wide, T bar, Bent rows, upright rows and Reverse fly's, and I do biceps that day, barbell curls, 21's, seated dumbell rows preacher curls and Reverse curls. . . I do Deads on leg day along with reverse sit ups for lower back. Shoulder and Tricep, barbell Military behind head and in front, front and Side raises Behind head Pull ups, Dumbell Military press. triceps , Skull crushers, close grip bench, Dumbell extensions, Diamond Pushups, Triceps kick backs and reverse dips. Does that seem like a good schedule or not?

What are you current stats? Age, weight, etc...

I'm 26
190 pounds
6 1
Just cycled off creatine, lost 3 pounds, trying n02 now.
5-6 meals per day, about .8 to 1 gram protein per pound
bench is only 225 3 times.
Cant max on bench because I have no spotter.
Safety Squat was around 5 plates in high school, I have no squat rack now so I only do Reps. Our full back used to do 7 plates on squats and now has bad back. So i try to skip heavy weight on the squats anyway.
Dead lifts I'm messing around with 3 plates right now.
My goal is to gain 20 more pounds and get my bench up over 300

You'd do well to read Phineas' post about 10 times because he nailed it.

Quality is more important than quantity. Work like a fucking dog on compound movements, bring up the laggers with an isolation exercise or two, and go home and rest. Ignore the burn, the pump, and DOMS, and worry more about systemic recovery rather than local recovery.

Honestly, i think people worry far too much about stuff like "i haven't trained my chest in a few days, OH NO!". Theres no reason if you're getting stronger on the 3rd day after a workout, why you would suddenly become weaker or smaller on the 4th or 5th days. Take the rest, and you'll likely come out stronger.

I didn't train my deadlift for 2 weeks, and just added 20lbs to it, making a total gain of 80lbs in about 2 and a half months. I've put on about 10lbs and stayed around 15% bodyfat. I'm training my main exercises 2-3 times a week, and leaving some movements for a week or two if i have had a particularly tough session on them.

Overtraining is overreaching taken to the extreme, chronic state. Think of it as a hole - when you workout, you dig a hole which is the damage you have done to your body. Your body can fill that hole given enough time and resources, and will even start to build up higher than ground level to ensure it's not damaged again. If you get digging before you start to build, or even get back to baseline, you're not going to get anywhere, and will end up hurting yourself. Immunosuppression, drastic performance decreases, exhaustion, and depression are some symptoms of overtraining - not fun. Not worth it.

Originally Posted by Raymond Sugar

I'm 26
190 pounds
6 1
Just cycled off creatine, lost 3 pounds, trying n02 now.
5-6 meals per day, about .8 to 1 gram protein per pound
bench is only 225 3 times.
Cant max on bench because I have no spotter.
Safety Squat was around 5 plates in high school, I have no squat rack now so I only do Reps. Our full back used to do 7 plates on squats and now has bad back. So i try to skip heavy weight on the squats anyway.
Dead lifts I'm messing around with 3 plates right now.
My goal is to gain 20 more pounds and get my bench up over 300

So you squatted close to 500lbs? When you say safety squat, do you mean a machine? Your full back has a bad back because he wasn't using proper form and could probably not handle the weight he was doing. When trying to gain weight you do not want to "mess around" with deadlifts and squat for reps. You want to eat like a mother, squat like real man, and dead lift like a caveman. Go get yourself some barbell stands at dicks so you can put a barbell up and get under it. Also, cut your training to 3 - 4 days a week. Keep it under an hour. Very intense and remember to EAT. .8 - 1 gram ain't enough. Go for 1.5 grams per pound. I know it's hard but if your like me, then gaining weight is always hard. Good luck!

you might also be taking in too much fat prior to your workout...this would be indicative of not getting a burn. Post your diet before we make any quick assumptions, and if your have only a few years under your belt of weight training, then yes, it is possible that you are overtraining. I would also suggest posting your current routine.

Safety squats used a special bar with a u pad that goes around your neck and a curved bar. It's not straight bar squats. Our football team used them. We used to go to failure, we had a squat rack that you could fail on and it would stop the weight and catch the bar. You dont have to use your hands to guide the bar either, unlike straight bar, it balances out on your back. So you can do more weight with these squats than straight bar. We also used to put the bar between our legs and do dead lifts as well as stiff leg deads.

Diet
Oatmeal, 3 eggs OJ
Post workout
Myoplex or Muscle milk, Apple Juice Creatine

Chicken Sandwich, Whole wheat noodles.

Steak or Burger, Baked Potato
Protein shake, Banana, Yogurt
Before Bed, PB sandwich, Protein bar, Milk

Should I have an Extra Meal on days I work out? I only have the Myo or Muscle milk on days I lift, Should I have it everday. If i am sore should I work out anyway?

Workout Routine

Mon Chest
Flat bench, Incline bench, Fly's, wide grip bench, Dips, Push ups
Tue Legs, lower back, Abs
Squat, Heel Raises, Leg curls, Stiff leg deads, Reverse sit ups, Abs.
Wed Off
Thursday Shoulder , Tricep
Military, Behind back and to chest, Behind the head pull ups. Front and side raises. Dumbell military press. Skull crushers, Close grip bench, Tricep Kick backs, Reverse dips and Diamond push ups
Friday, Back biceps
Pull ups wide and close, add weight, Upright rows, Bent rows, T-bars, One arm dumbell rows. barbell curls, Seated dumbell curls, Preacher curls, Reverse curls, 21's. Forearm curls.

Signs of over-training----------lack of enthusiasm to workout,depression,dont give a f@ck attitude about stuff.

Originally Posted by Raymond Sugar

Workout Routine

Mon Chest
Flat bench, Incline bench, Fly's, wide grip bench, Dips, Push ups
Tue Legs, lower back, Abs
Squat, Heel Raises, Leg curls, Stiff leg deads, Reverse sit ups, Abs.
Wed Off
Thursday Shoulder , Tricep
Military, Behind back and to chest, Behind the head pull ups. Front and side raises. Dumbell military press. Skull crushers, Close grip bench, Tricep Kick backs, Reverse dips and Diamond push ups
Friday, Back biceps
Pull ups wide and close, add weight, Upright rows, Bent rows, T-bars, One arm dumbell rows. barbell curls, Seated dumbell curls, Preacher curls, Reverse curls, 21's. Forearm curls.

Start over!

2 very simple recommendations; change your routine-because yours sucks. Way too much volume. Or possibly block training to work on your 2 worst bodyparts. I'd cut back to a 4 day split. You need more rest.
I'd also suggest changing your diet. You simply have no idea what you take in and this could be a hindrance on your progress. If you want further help, I'd be more than happy to help. PM me with your stats and we can setup a before/after file on you.

Why not do lower back with your.. uh, back workout?

Chest/Tri
Legs/Shoulders(Traps)
Back/Bi
Abs/Obliques (Maybe even throw in forearms)

Theres no set in stone grouping but you should always mix things up..

I'll take the rest of the week off and start over then. Haven t had a long break for six months at least. I'll change up my whole Routine. I've been on this routine for about a month anyhow. I definately dont have depression or a lack of motivation. But I want to get my best out of working out. How do I send my stats to you Juggernaut.

you might want to point yourself to the stickies Raymond. Take a look at two sources of reference; Patrick Ward's Take Charge ebook and Built's Baby Got Back routine. I always recommend the two as they make up the way I train my clients and Built's routine has been used in readying my competitors for a contest.

Originally Posted by Meudi

I would do the work out that KY listed if all your trying to do is maintain the muscle you have. If you want to build muscle, you normally want to use a weight high enough that you can barely get 6 reps. and you want to make sure you rest for plenty of time between sets so that you can do at least 4 reps of that same weight again. If you do high reps, your just cutting the muscle you have, not really building a lot more. I would agree with him on that you dont need to over do the work outs on a muscle group. Just because there are 20 different ways to work your chest, doesnt mean you need to do all 20 in one workout. I would say about 5 excersises per muscle group if you going heavy weight with 4-6 reps each set and about 2-3 sets per excersise. And dont work any muscle group more then once a week. 5-6 days a week is good, but work a different group each one of those days. And make sure to have at least one rest day a week.

Additionally, I would take a week off every 8-10 weeks to let your muscle recovery catch up a little.

While the well-known rep range guidelines (i.e. strength/mass, hypertrophy, endurance) are fine to follow, they are, after all, only guidelines.

You can develop strength and mass at any rep range; likewise, you develop endurance at low rep ranges; it all depends on so many things, but generally if you're eating right, training hard and balanced, and resting adequately any rep range will work.

In fact, I've been keeping I'd say about 80% of my training at an average of 3 x 10 @ 60-70% intensity and have seen FAR greater gains than my days in the "mass" rep range. There's probably no one reason. I do enjoy the 3 x 8-12 a lot more than lower ranges. I tend to keep stronger form with much better control, I can focus better, I can push incredibly hard to near muscular failure rather than CNS failure (which tends to happen on heavy lifting for me), it takes less of a mental/emotional toll (I get so nervous when I'm about to squat a 1-3 RM....potentially back-breaking if something goes wrong....lower intensities I feel safer doing), I enjoy busting out more reps (but not at the cost of intensity), etc.

Find a rep range you enjoy. I think that's most important, honestly. You should incorporate variety in everything, of course, but if you're smart about it any rep range will work.

I incorporate both Reps and Heavy weights in my routines. Thanks for all the advice. I will check out those sources, Juggernaut.

I'm going to try a Horizontal, Vertical Routine. Saw it on that baby got back. How long do you guys wait in between sets. I usually wait only a minute at the most.

Originally Posted by Raymond Sugar

I'm going to try a Horizontal, Vertical Routine. Saw it on that baby got back. How long do you guys wait in between sets. I usually wait only a minute at the most.

Between "regular" sets.. 2 minutes-ish
Between super sets.. like 20 seconds..

it depends on Attention Deficit Disorder.

Actually 2 minutes with the 5x5, about a minute to a minute and half with the 3x8-10, and at most 1 minute for the final.

[QUOTE=juggernaut;1977801]it depends on Attention Deficit Disorder.

lol

Bullits Routine Rox Juggernaut, Thanks