Thread: Hardgainer troubles

Your workout isn't going to make you gain any weight. Weight gain is about creating a calorie surplus. You need to consume more calories than you burn on a daily basis. You're a big guy. You'll need to eat equally as big. I'm thinking somewhere in the area of 4000 calories.
So what's your diet look like?

My diet is good, I eat alot of chicken and sweet potatoes. They are my staples! Now that summers coming around STEAK STEAK STEAK! Im getting around 3500 cals right now. So I should aim for 4000 or higher? I Want to gain lean weight! No extra fat. I have 3 - 4 isopure Protein shakes a day. I definately get 200 gs of protein.

You're not going to gain weight without gaining some fat. Still, if you're not gaining weight with your current diet, you need to eat more.

Originally Posted by YungWoozy

My diet is good, I eat alot of chicken and sweet potatoes. They are my staples! Now that summers coming around STEAK STEAK STEAK! Im getting around 3500 cals right now. So I should aim for 4000 or higher? I Want to gain lean weight! No extra fat. I have 3 - 4 isopure Protein shakes a day. I definately get 200 gs of protein.

is that 200g of protein from just the shakes or total for the day? im 5'11" and 225... i try to get in over 425g of protein per day.. dont be afraid of the carbs and fat cuz youll need em to grow... it sounds like your a lean dude already and as long as your burning that fuel during intense workouts you wont pick up any extra fat...

just my 2 cents

Originally Posted by YungWoozy

Monday - Chest, Back, upper abs
tuesday - shoulders, arms, lower abs
Wednesday - rest
Thursday - Legs, upper abs
Fridat - CHest, arms, lower abs.

I can see where your priorities lie.

Okay, first of all, way too much ab training. With heavy compound lifts like squats you don't really need ab work, as they work very hard to stabalize during those lifts. Direct work for the abs works the same as any isolation work. After a lot of consistent compound lifting and then assessment of your physique and performance you can ask yourself if any muscles need a little extra work. This is when you'd employ arm curls, front raises, shrugs, or ab work.

This elimates your "arm" and possibly "shoulder" work. Rather than training in terms of muscle groups -- which, in my opinion, is an out-dated method which fails to acknowledge the body as a system -- you should train in terms of mechanics (i.e. exertion of force: PUSH or PULL) and planes of motion (e.g. upper horizontal push, lower pull). A push/pull program will cover every muscle in your body (assuming you stick with compounds) and allow your body and strength to develop not only faster and more efficiently but evenly and proportionately (assuming you balance the planes of motion).

You said you're having trouble gaining? Well, here's a little secret (to newbies) that will likely sell you on this method: compound lifts elicit more growth hormones -- which affect all your muscles! Basically, it goes like this....when you squat, you're directly training the quads (largest muscle in the body..or I should say "grouping" of muscles, as there are four of them..still, they comprise the quads), but also secondarily the hamstrings, glutes, adductors, calves, hip flexors, and indirectly through isometric tension your back, abs, CORE (actual core muscles...not abs/obliques, but the real core..the little deep muscles you don't see but help you to stabalize) and traps. That's a whole lot of work in one simple movement.

Now, when you perform that lift, a whole wack of growth hormones are released into your body. However, they don't just sit in the muscles you trained. You may feel a burning in your legs (the burn means nothing, by the way), but those hormones are traveling all over the place. Let's say you were doing pullups 2 days prior, and your biceps are sore (a staple compound lift, by the way), those hormones from squats will interact with your trained biceps and help make even them grow!!! Yes! It's true! Leg work will make your arms bigger!

I've said it many times before, and I'll sure as hell say it again....compound lifts are more bang for your buck!

See..I'm like a car salesman for compound lifts.

"WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO GO HOME TODAY IN A COMPOUND LIFT!!"

Okay, that doesn't work, but you get my point, right? Those hundreds of situps..those endless sets of arm curls...they won't take you far. Think big. Grab a barbell, put some plates on it, hell it doesn't matter if you're squatting 25's a side..if it's proper and a deep squat and controlled and you feel the intensity and meet your rep range without hitting failure then you're making serious progress, my friend.

Why don't you do some fine-tuning on that program. You don't have to do exactly what I said. I just wanted you to understand that the body works a certain way (as a system). Seperating individual parts kind of messes with the natural process. That's not to say muscle group training doesn't work. I'm just saying covering the planes of motion will give you a balanced program.

I love it when Phineas posts about training. As you can tell, the guy is passionate and very knowledgable. He's dead on too. Squats, deadlifts, Pullups, bent rows, chins, etc.. these are the best movements for getting your whole body to grow. I don't do many iso moves anymore either. Nothing that would account for a "workout" anyway.
On the topic of training, he's covered it quite well. As for diet, yeah, I'd agree gtbmed. If you're not gaining on 3500, add 500 more and do that for about three weeks and see if you start to gain. If not, Add 500 more and see if you gain. Personally, I wouldn't try consuming as much protein as Sweetjaymz recommended. 1-1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight is a good goal to shoot for. That would still put you about 60 grams short.
Also, again, I'd agree with gtb, you will likely gain some fat too. Unless you can EXACTLY determine what your body will need to gain without going over, you will have to store the rest as fat. But don't sewat that. First do a bulk, get to about 195, then do a cut to lose that extra 10lbs of fat and you'll be where you wanna be. In addition to the 170-260 grams of fat, try to get in about 20-25% fat and the rest will be clean carbs.

+1

One quick thing to note:

1g protein/carbs = 4 calories
1g fat = 9 calories

So, if your macros lean heavy on fats you'll essentially end up eating less in volume, as the foods you're eating are far more calorie-dense.

Think of it like this: 2 tbs mayo (primarily fat) = 200 calories. This is a condoment, and not very filling. You'd probably use this for one can of tuna (another 150 calories, plus the 28g protein..the filling part). On the other hand, to meet this many calories with a carb-rich food like oats you would have to eat about 1/2 cup, which is actually pretty filling (oats can be difficult to get down sometimes).

What this means is a higher fat diet will be helpful for someone having trouble gaining weight, because it's a hell of a lot easier to make your calories (and then exceed them!). Because fat is denser in calories relative to volume you can eat more food than on a carb-dense diet.

Once you've been dieting (and this doesn't mean trying to lose fat...just means stuctured eating) for a while you might find you switch to higher carbs. My fat macros are generally fairly low. I generally don't exceed 50-70g a day. I find that's plenty to get the hormonal benefits. I bulk heavy on carbs. Not only are they generally the most nutritionally-dense foods (read a detailed analysis on whole wheat bread and pasta) but they're your muscles primary source of fuel. I like the energy element, plus they taste so good and are more satisying to me than fat.

Then again, I'm no longer in that stage where I'm desperate for weight gain. Once you gain and you have a nice mucle/fat foundation you might find carbs to be your poison.

Since I reverted to heavy carbs my lfits have skyrocketed, I've gained a hell of a lot of mass, and I'm leaning out. Interesting, eh?

And thanks for the kind words FMJ. I enjoy posting in the training section more because I think there's a bit more to it than diet...well, in the sense that you can customize it more. There's so much to diet, but nothing you can't learn from books and your own research, especially the basics. Whereas with training I think there's more subjectivity to prinicples and whatnot.

I know all about the Compound movements, and how it helps with more growth hormone and I know all about the calories per protein and shit, I took a personal trainer course to help me learn extra. I have read about PUSH/PULL but not familiar what a push pull workout week would look like. If you could give me a link or make a quick workout that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you guys! Lots and lots of help!

My biggest probelm I think is, Im doing to many excersizes! My chest, arms and shoulders are what need to grow. My legs and back are doing very well. But my chest will not grow, however since I've moved from barbell to dumbells it has helped/

Here are Cowpimps links on designing routines.
I highly recommend reading through these as well as the stickies in the training and Diet&Nutrition forums. Theres just tons of great info posted there. Sure to answer all your questions.


Cowpimp on designing a routine (Guide To Designing A Routine)

Cowpimp on desinging a split routine (Designing a Split Routine)

cowpimp on designing a full body routine (Designing a Full Body Routine)

You're asking questions like these while taking dbol?? LOL

The other guys seem to be doing a good job with you, but I'm just going to through in another vote that delaying your dbol use would be a good idea. You don't have to throw it away, but I don't think there is a need for you to start with the anabolics yet.

Originally Posted by YungWoozy

My biggest probelm I think is, Im doing to many excersizes! My chest, arms and shoulders are what need to grow. My legs and back are doing very well. But my chest will not grow, however since I've moved from barbell to dumbells it has helped/

Train your whole body evenly and the weak parts will catch up. You're too soon in to be experimenting with extra work on certain muscles. Build a solid foundation first.

Originally Posted by YungWoozy

I know all about the Compound movements, and how it helps with more growth hormone and I know all about the calories per protein and shit, I took a personal trainer course to help me learn extra. I have read about PUSH/PULL but not familiar what a push pull workout week would look like. If you could give me a link or make a quick workout that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you guys! Lots and lots of help!

Then why don't you have a well-balanced program? And, why aren't you gaining weight?

There's nothing to push/pull, really. If you understand it, you should be able to dish out programs like nothing. Here: I'll do this in one go (this is not my program, btw)...

Tues: Lower Push/Calves

1 - back squats
2 - DB calf extensions
3 - front squats
4 - leg press calf extensions
5- DB bulgarian split squats
6 - seated calf

Thurs: Upper horizontal push/vertical pull

1 - flat bench DB press
2 - pullups
3 - incline bench
4 - close grip chins
5 - decline DB press
6 - unilateral lat pulldowns

Sat: Lower Pull/Calves

1 - deadlifts
2 - DB calf extensions'
3 - good mornings
4 - leg press calf extensions
5 - unilateral romanian deadlifts
6 - seated calf

Sun: Upper Horizontal Pull/Vertical Push

1- Bent-over BB rows
2 - hang cleans
3 - DB unilateral row
4 - military press
5 - supine rows
6 - corner press

There you go. You can swap exercises as you like. Periodize. Incorporate advanced techniques. Accessory work if really needed. But, at the end of the day, that's your bread'n'butter, my friend.

No offense Phin, but IMO you can't just recommend a lift like Hang Cleans to someone and let them run with it. That's a really complex movement and I rarely see people do them correctly.

Also, if you're going to do hang cleans, do them first in any workout. You could easily substitute something like rack pulls for hang cleans IMO.

If you're not gaining weight, dbol won't help you. You need to be training right and eating right in order to see good results nomatter what you're running or not. You need to fix that first.

Adding nitrous to a car with a flawed engine won't make it go any faster if it isn't moving at all.

I just made a new push/pull plan from Cowpimps guides(that stuff is great). And I'm going to be eating alot more and not so much worry about bf% till cutting cycle. Im going to go for 4000 - 5000 cals and around 275 - 350gs of protein. And equal that or more in carbs.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

No offense Phin, but IMO you can't just recommend a lift like Hang Cleans to someone and let them run with it. That's a really complex movement and I rarely see people do them correctly.

Also, if you're going to do hang cleans, do them first in any workout. You could easily substitute something like rack pulls for hang cleans IMO.

I wasn't actually suggesting this as his workout. I was just giving an example of how to balance the planes of motion with compounds.

Also, hang cleans are a vertical push, whereas rack pulls are a lower pull, so I wouldn't substitute unless for a more specific reason.

Originally Posted by Phineas

I wasn't actually suggesting this as his workout. I was just giving an example of how to balance the planes of motion with compounds.

Also, hang cleans are a vertical push, whereas rack pulls are a lower pull, so I wouldn't substitute unless for a more specific reason.

You're going to have to explain to me how hang cleans are a "vertical push".

Every oly weightlifting coach out there talks about the "second pull". This is the exact part of the clean that is performed during the hang clean. There's no pushing of the weight involved at all apart from the front squat at the end of the movement.

Hang cleans are a trap and hip dominant pulling exercise. Rack pulls are similar in that they involve a (somewhat) similar motion and start from a similar position. They recruit similar groups of muscles IMO.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

You're going to have to explain to me how hang cleans are a "vertical push".

Every oly weightlifting coach out there talks about the "second pull". This is the exact part of the clean that is performed during the hang clean. There's no pushing of the weight involved at all apart from the front squat at the end of the movement.

Hang cleans are a trap and hip dominant pulling exercise. Rack pulls are similar in that they involve a (somewhat) similar motion and start from a similar position. They recruit similar groups of muscles IMO.

Well, people will argue over what is the primary muscle worked in the hang clean. There is some gray area, but I've always seen it as a shoulder-dominant lift. The hip element is nowhere near as great as in power cleans. I'll admit, power lifts are difficult to "classify". Various muscles in the shoulders and upper back are contracting on the concentric and moving the object away from the torso in a vertical plane, thus making it a vertical push.

While push and pull will usually manifest as actual pushing and pulling this isn't ALWAYS the case. For instance, upright rows are a vertical push, despite the pulling nature of the lift.

Look, if this guy doesn't want to do hang cleans anyway then I don't think there's much point in arguing what plane of motion it is. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter where you put them.

I was just curious why you would classify them as a push. I don't understand why you would classify an upright row as a push either. I'm not a BBer so these things are somewhat foreign to me.

The main muscles worked in a hang clean are the hams, hips, traps, and calves. To me, those are not the typical muscles that are recruited by most "pushing" movements.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Well, people will argue over what is the primary muscle worked in the hang clean. There is some gray area, but I've always seen it as a shoulder-dominant lift. The hip element is nowhere near as great as in power cleans. I'll admit, power lifts are difficult to "classify". Various muscles in the shoulders and upper back are contracting on the concentric and moving the object away from the torso in a vertical plane, thus making it a vertical push.

While push and pull will usually manifest as actual pushing and pulling this isn't ALWAYS the case. For instance, upright rows are a vertical push, despite the pulling nature of the lift.

Look, if this guy doesn't want to do hang cleans anyway then I don't think there's much point in arguing what plane of motion it is. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter where you put them.

Ive been considering adding hang cleans into my rotune, to do this pull / push and going to use the workoutyou provided above for a layout :P.

Everyone says dont do it unles you have some who knows what there doing to show you, ive been watching videos on youtube etc and think i got the basic understanding .. should i start doing them and see how i make out? Or just leave them out for now?

Hang cleans rock. I like to include explosive movements in my routine to hit the type II a fibers primarily.

Originally Posted by user19

Ive been considering adding hang cleans into my rotune, to do this pull / push and going to use the workoutyou provided above for a layout :P.

Everyone says dont do it unles you have some who knows what there doing to show you, ive been watching videos on youtube etc and think i got the basic understanding .. should i start doing them and see how i make out? Or just leave them out for now?

This is how I learned to clean properly:

Start with what are called "scarecrow cleans" with a bar or a broomstick. Lift the bar by bending your arms until it's about to the top of your abs. Practice dropping under the bar and allowing your arms to whip around as the bar racks across your shoulders.

Once you can do these easily, move on to dead hang cleans. These are like hang cleans, but are done with the bar starting at waist height instead of from the hang position.

Once you can do these easily, move on to hang cleans. Start adding weight to the bar but continue to perform the first few lifts as a warmup.

I still do dead hang cleans, drop unders, and balances before every workout.