Thread: Critique My Program Please

Have you tried doing the Monday workout yet? I couldn't imagine getting through that as a natural.

Originally Posted by m11

Have you tried doing the Monday workout yet? I couldn't imagine getting through that as a natural.

Doesn't seem like overkill to me. Maybe the 5 x 5 would get fatiguing after a while, but it's a balanced program comprised primarily of compounds. Tiring, but efficient.

I train full body 3 times a week with one compound per plane of motion, plus instinct calf training, and it's working fine.

Originally Posted by NJ-Surfer

I've been lifting fairly regularly for 6 years but fell off the wagon in 2008 due to work demand. I got back on track last year and just did a pretty successful cut over 6 months where I lost ~20lbs. I am now 41 yrs old, 6'2", 185lbs and ~15%BF. During my cut I was doing a 3 day split using mix of 5x5 set/rep and 3/8 within each workout. I'm now starting to bulk by adding back ~700calories/day and doing a similar 3 day split but variyng the set/rep between days rather than within each workout. Please take a look at my lifting program and let me know what you think.

Mon (A) all 5x5 set/rep
Squat
BB OH-Press are you talking about shoulder press or military press?
DB Rows unilateral bench rows, or bent over rows?
BB Bench Press
1 Arm Pull Downs
Leg Curls I'd switch to a compound

Wed (B) all 3x10 set/rep
Deadlift
Olympic Bar Corner Press
Widegrip Lat Pulldown instead of 3 machine lifts for vertical pull why not include a pullup on chinup variation?
Dips
EZ Bar Curls necessary?
DB
Lat Raise what is a DB lat raise?

Friday (A) all 5x5 set/rep
Squat
BB OH-Press
DB Rows
BB Bench Press
1 Arm Pull Downs
Leg Curls


Week#1 A/B/A
Week#2 B/A/B
Week#3 A/B/A
...

Each week alternates between workout A and B with Mon/Fri using 5x5 set/rep and each Wed using 3x10 set/rep. I plan to run this out for 10 weeks before changing it up again and possibly going on another cut.

See my comments above to your lifts.

Aside from a few minor tweaks, I think this a well-balanced, efficient program. Looks like you had planes of motion in mind, here. Good stuff

However, the frequent 5 x 5 workouts WILL burn you out before 10 weeks is over. This is very similar to my program, and let me tell you from experience, high intensity is a bit much to do beyond one week at a time. I'm sticking to mid- to high-rep ranges (an average of 3 x 10). Not only will this make your workouts really long (I spend at least 10-20 minutes per session waiting for people to get out of the cage) this will be really taxing on your CNS. Your grip will also take a beating. While this will develop your grip a great deal with all the compounds, by the time you get to the mid-point of your session your forearms and palms will be torn apart.

Wow, I could never do 5x5 of that many exercises at a high intensity. I also question whether doing 5x5 of your isolation movements is really necessary. I think a few sets of isolation in each workout is good enough.

When I did Starr's 5x5, 3 lifts at that rep range and intensity were enough to make me feel like crap. I didn't even want to do accessory work.

Originally Posted by m11

Have you tried doing the Monday workout yet? I couldn't imagine getting through that as a natural.

Yes, I'm on week #2. The 5x5 doesn't beat me up all that bad as the level of intensity is not too high. I prefer to REALLY focus on form when I do 5x5 so I work the sets at ~75-80% of my 1 rep max.

Everything I do is all natural. I tried a PH about 5 years ago for about 4 days before I realized I never want to ever touch any of that shit ever again. At 41 years of age, I have a good amount of my hair left, 15% BF, a very satisfied women, and very pleased with my overall health. Best of all, no regrets

Originally Posted by Phineas

See my comments above to your lifts.

Aside from a few minor tweaks, I think this a well-balanced, efficient program. Looks like you had planes of motion in mind, here. Good stuff

However, the frequent 5 x 5 workouts WILL burn you out before 10 weeks is over. This is very similar to my program, and let me tell you from experience, high intensity is a bit much to do beyond one week at a time. I'm sticking to mid- to high-rep ranges (an average of 3 x 10). Not only will this make your workouts really long (I spend at least 10-20 minutes per session waiting for people to get out of the cage) this will be really taxing on your CNS. Your grip will also take a beating. While this will develop your grip a great deal with all the compounds, by the time you get to the mid-point of your session your forearms and palms will be torn apart.

Perhaps my intensity on the 5x5 is a little lower than what you young bucks tend to use . I work at ~75% of my 1RM and try and focus more on the form. Let me know if that gives you a different perspective. I'm certainly open to ideas so feel free to critique.

In regard to your questions:
1) BB OH-Press are you talking about shoulder press or military press?
These are done as standing BB military press
2) DB Rows unilateral bench rows, or bent over rows?
These are unilateral bench rows. Bent rows beat my back up too much as at 6'2" tall its hard not to round the back when bent over.
3) Leg Curls I'd switch to a compound.
What would you suggest? SLDL or something like that? Those buggers really kick my ass.
4) Widegrip Lat Pulldown instead of 3 machine lifts for vertical pull why not include a pullup on chinup variation?
I have a slight tear in the labrum of my left shoulder. For some reason pull and chinups cause it to flare up everytime. I could probably do them only if I didn't go through the full range of motion but that doesn't seem like it would be very productive.
5) EZ Bar Curls necessary?
Probably not but can't help myself. I love doing curls.
6) Lat Raise what is a DB lat raise?
see attached link


Thanks again for everyone"s comments. I always appreciate the discussion as it helps my think from others perspective.

I like the program. I do something simliar. I'd agree with the other comments. I would switch

1) Leg curls to SLDLs
2) Accessory lifts to 10-12 rep range

One other option would be to incorporate some "explosive lifts" on day three instead of repeating day 1 exercises such as

Overhead squats
DB snatch
Plyo Pushups
Muscle Ups
Lunge / Step ups
Box Squats / Jump squats
Clean and Press
Power Cleans
DB Swing

I like a lot of variety. Just a thought - depending on how your shoulder holds up

If you can get through those workouts I don't think the load is heavy enough. I do 3x8 on 3 or 4 exercises and I can't give any more. Lord knows how you can do 5x5 on 6 exercises. Or 7 of 3 x10. Exercises look fine (except curls on B day) but imo you should cut down on the exercises. Especially since you're doing that much volume 3x a week, natural.

Just curious, what did you dislike about PH's? I'm looking into doing a cycle in summer but I'm still on the fence.

Originally Posted by yellowmoomba

I like the program. I do something simliar. I'd agree with the other comments. I would switch

1) Leg curls to SLDLs
2) Accessory lifts to 10-12 rep range

One other option would be to incorporate some "explosive lifts" on day three instead of repeating day 1 exercises such as

Overhead squats
DB snatch
Plyo Pushups
Muscle Ups
Lunge / Step ups
Box Squats / Jump squats
Clean and Press
Power Cleans
DB Swing

I like a lot of variety. Just a thought - depending on how your shoulder holds up

Your suggestions are pretty much spot on with the program I was using during my cut. Since I was cutting my lifts didn't increase that much over the 6 month period.

My goal was to hit the muscle groups in A twice a week and then hit the muscle groups in B twice the following week with the hope that I could now see some strength increase on my bulking diet. Based on the comments though I'll probably raise the reps on accessory lift so I don't overtrain. I still like the idea of hitting it twice a week as I've haven't done this in a very long time so I'm hoping for a good response from this change.

Originally Posted by T_man

If you can get through those workouts I don't think the load is heavy enough. I do 3x8 on 3 or 4 exercises and I can't give any more. Lord knows how you can do 5x5 on 6 exercises. Or 7 of 3 x10. Exercises look fine (except curls on B day) but imo you should cut down on the exercises. Especially since you're doing that much volume 3x a week, natural.

Just curious, what did you dislike about PH's? I'm looking into doing a cycle in summer but I'm still on the fence.

As I'm sure you already know, PH is just a euphemism for steroid. Anything that screws with your natural hormone balance is a risk. Although many people don't have issues when running steroids there are many others who do have issues. If you want to consider doing a cycle you should 1st understand all the risks and then be able to say to yourself with a clear conscience "yes, I'm willing to live with that issue if it occurs". I did that assessment after the 1st few days of my cycle and realized "no, I can't live with those issues if they occur'. So I dropped the shit like the bad habit that it is. Roids=

Just to name a few potential issues: gyno (nipples and tits on a guy are not too attractive), PCT with SERM (permanent blurred vision, night vision blindness), AI inhibitors on cycle (erectile dysfunction that can last for months if not permanently prevent you from ever achieving a full erection again), hair loss (excess DHT can accelerate male pattern baldness) , and last but not least.... personal dignity (I don’t want to have to lie to say I never used steroids).

Again, these are only potential side effects but they're all deal breakers for me. Why take that kind of risk when you can do it naturally and hold your head high when you walk in the gym and through the rest of your life.

Ok, sorry, I'll come down off the soap box now

A PH like 1-andro rx is a mild one, and doesn't convert to DHT or estro so most of the side effects you put there would not be seen if dosed correctly with a good pct.

Guns are not killers, people's ignorance is

Originally Posted by T_man

A PH like 1-andro rx is a mild one, and doesn't convert to DHT or estro so most of the side effects you put there would not be seen if dosed correctly with a good pct.

You have to take everything you read with a bit of skepticism with regard to PH's/steroids, especially when the info is coming from the ones who are profiting from their sale. Whenever you upset your natural hormonal balance your body will do some serious chemistry to return things back to normal (homeostasis). This is very unpredictable and can vary significantly between individuals but you can never guarantee that your body will not produce excess estrogen or DHT in response to PH's/steroids. That is why most users will run an AI (aromatase inhibitor) or DHT blocker and or a SERM at some point in their cycle. As stated before, once you add in these accessories you now have a whole other set of potential side effects to deal with. But as far as 1-andro being this miraculously safe steroid remember that it is not active and must go through several conversions to become active. Along that metabolic pathway a lot of things do and can occur. Here are a few excerpts that I found by doing a quick search:

1-testosterone - A legal steroid, at least for the time being. It's very androgenic and very anabolic. Although it's a 5-alpha-reduced steroid it converts to DHT through an unknown pathway, so using Proscar along with it won't avoid DHT conversion. Its anabolic/androgenic ratio (~(1.5-2):1) is slightly higher than that of test (1:1). Be wary while using this product if you value your hair.

Any androgenic hormone molecule binding to the receptors in your scalp could advance hair-loss in someone prone to MPB. When using steroids, especially those with strong receptor binding characteristics like 1-test or Trenbalone, the actual steroid itself could be a contributing factor to your hair loss, in addition to any elevated levels of DHT in your system.

cool thread on hairloss - MESO-Rx

Take my advice, do a search on several forums (not just this one) and read about guys that are having issues on cycle. When you see the thousands of post regarding gyno, erectile dysfunction, blurred vision, etc...you will most likely gain a new perspective or at least truely understand what you're potentially up against.

OK, based on the feedback and after a little consideration I've decided to cut back some in hopes that I'll see better gains in my lifts by not over-taxing my body. Each day will only have 5 lifts and the 5x5 day will only have 4 sets at this intensity and 1 lift at 3x10. Let me know what ya think :

Mon (A)
1) Squat -5x5 set/rep
2) BB OH-Press - 5x5 set/rep
3) DB Rows - 5x5 set/rep
4) BB Bench Press - 5x5 set/rep
5) SLDL - 3x10 set/rep

Wed (B) all 3x10 set/rep
1) Deadlift
2) Olympic Bar Corner Press
3) Widegrip Lat Pulldown
4) Dips
5) EZ Bar Curls (only on 3x10 days, eliminate from 5x5 days)
or
DB Lat Raise (only on 3x10 days, eliminate from 5x5 days)

Mon (A)
1) Squat -5x5 set/rep
2) BB OH-Press - 5x5 set/rep
3) DB Rows - 5x5 set/rep
4) BB Bench Press - 5x5 set/rep
5) Calf Raises - 3x10 set/rep


Week#1 A/B/A
Week#2 B/A/B
Week#3 A/B/A
...

Each week alternates between workout A and B with Mon/Fri using 5x5 set/rep and each Wed using 3x10 set/rep. I plan to run this out for 10 weeks before changing it up again and possibly going on another cut.

I don't know how you manage to make it through monday

Originally Posted by T_man

I don't know how you manage to make it through monday

Really???
I do this at 7:00 am and it takes ~1 hour then I work 8-10 hours without blinking an eye. I think you may be overestimating the itensity of my 5x5 lifts

Personally I would swap dips and bench press. I would deadlift 5x5 and replace lat pulldowns with weighted chins or pullups and do those 5x5 as well.

So something like this:

A:
Squat 5x5
OH Press 5x5
DB Rows 5x5
Dips 3x10
SLDL 3x10

B:
Deadlift 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Weighted chins/pullups 5x5
Corner press 3x10
Arm work 3x10

Similar to Rippetoe's Starting Strength, which is a very good program.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

Personally I would swap dips and bench press. I would deadlift 5x5 and replace lat pulldowns with weighted chins or pullups and do those 5x5 as well.

So something like this:

A:
Squat 5x5
OH Press 5x5
DB Rows 5x5
Dips 3x10
SLDL 3x10

B:
Deadlift 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Weighted chins/pullups 5x5
Corner press 3x10
Arm work 3x10

Similar to Rippetoe's Starting Strength, which is a very good program.

Can't do the chins/pullups due to shoulder issue (see above) but I like the idea of swapping the Dips and Bench. I'll give it a go. Cheers buddy!!