Thread: Training Hard vs Over-training??

Any comments??

They're seperate issues.

Training to failure means just that, you take a set to absolute total muscular failure. This sometimes goes by the name Heavy Duty training because that was the name of Mike Mentzer's book where he touted this training style. It works great for some people, not so well for others. You just have to try it and see how it works for you. But be careful, you have to use ULTRA strict form because any lapse in form during this type of training is a recipe for disater. You can injur yourself very easily. Also, this type of training is very hard on your joints so, take a break from it every now and then to give them a chance to recover. (Built already mentioned the Central Nervous System so I won't go into that further.)

On the other hand, you have Over-training. That's the condition you put yourself in when you don't allow your muscle enough time to repair themselves between workouts. The age old technique of working each muscle one time per week isn't carved in stone anymore. You have to find out what works best for you. You mentioned getting one more rep at your next workout, that's exactly what you're strving for, to get stronger. But you have to watch it closely. If you find you've hit a plateau or are even getting weaker, you need to back off and give your muscles a chance to fully repair themselves and get stronger. (That's all assuming you're taking in enough protein and getting enough high quality sleep.) If you keep pushing yourself even after you notice you're not getting stronger you'll end up depleating your immune system and you'll end up bed ridden with a cold, flu, whatever. You WILL rest because your body will force you to by shutting down. That's not something you want to happen.

So bottom line, push as hard as you can in the gym but, give your muscles plenty of time to recover when you're out of the gym.

ALBOB's post was right on the money. Training hard is a necessity, over-training is a condition that needs to be avoided at all costs. Train hard, but rest, sleep and eat a lot too.

Originally Posted by NJ-Surfer

When I started training I was always told to take ever rep to failure

How in the world can anyone take every rep to failure?

Lyle McDonald actually just wrote an article on this very topic:

Overtraining, Overreaching and all the Rest Part 1 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

How in the world can anyone take every rep to failure?

I was also thinking that

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

How in the world can anyone take every rep to failure?

I saw that and assumed he meant to say "set".

Originally Posted by ALBOB

I saw that and assumed he meant to say "set".

Yeah, that was a typo. Failure on every rep sounds pretty funny

So on a set/rep of 5x5 do most take the final rep close to failure as I do or are you at the point where could you squeeze out another rep or two without compromising form?

I don't think "training to failure" can be compared to or associated with "over-training." You can train till you puke and can't lift a 5 lb dumbbell at the end of your session but if you give yourself enough rest days in between to recover you won't be overtraining in the grand scheme of things. You can on the other hand have one or two light workouts a day for the same muscle group, every day without rest days and you will be overtraining. A clear indication for me that I'm over training in general is when my workouts are not the same as they use to be and I start to feel weaker at the gym rather than stronger.

OK, forget about the title of this post. I'm not really asking about over-training here and I agree 100% with everyone’s sentiments. As long as you allow your body enough time to recovery you take over-training out of the equation.

My question is in regard to taking a set to "failure". When your goal is hypertrophy how does your typical set/rep look like in regard to intensity? What is your end point for a single set if not failure? What is your end point for the full set (ie the 5th set on a 5x5)?

For me if I do a 5x5 I do the 1st 4 sets at about 70-80% intensity and then take the 5th set to 90-100% intensity, with 100% being failure (Failure = can't do another rep without compromising form).

Originally Posted by Triple Threat

How in the world can anyone take every rep to failure?

Failure on every rep sounds pretty funny

Might I suggest the PSMF?

Thought process during lifts....*alright, inhale, push, good, good, good, oh shit! there it went! DUCK!*[crashing sound]

Originally Posted by NJ-Surfer

For me if I do a 5x5 I do the 1st 4 sets at about 70-80% intensity and then take the 5th set to 90-100% intensity, with 100% being failure (Failure = can't do another rep without compromising form).

Are you adding weight on the 5th set (i.e. increasing intensity) or increasing # of reps (i.e. increasing volume)?

Everyones body respnds differently but, if I am not mistaken, a 5x5 training style is more geared toward strength while, say, a 4x8-10 is more the hypertrophy range. What are your goals?

Anyhow, if I were doing a 5x5 program I would start with an intensity that would challenge me thru every set without going over the target rep on any set. Once I can complete 5x5, I would then increase weight and work back up to 5x5 and add weight again. While I dont necessarily strive to reach complete failure (difinately won't hapeen on the first 3 sets), I want to be close on the last 2, otherwise I would not be giving the muscle enough stress/challenge to convince it that it needs to get bigger/stronger.

It would be the same premise for hypertrophy. Start with a weight that challenges you. Once you can do 4x10, add weight so that you drop to around 4x7-8 and work back up to 4x10, repeat.

Originally Posted by NJ-Surfer

OK, forget about the title of this post. I'm not really asking about over-training here and I agree 100% with everyone’s sentiments. As long as you allow your body enough time to recovery you take over-training out of the equation.

My question is in regard to taking a set to "failure". When your goal is hypertrophy how does your typical set/rep look like in regard to intensity? What is your end point for a single set if not failure? What is your end point for the full set (ie the 5th set on a 5x5)?

For me if I do a 5x5 I do the 1st 4 sets at about 70-80% intensity and then take the 5th set to 90-100% intensity, with 100% being failure (Failure = can't do another rep without compromising form).

I don't pick a specific number of reps for each set, I pick a weight and do whatever I can within my target range of 8-12. Here's my typical Incline DB press routine for chest.

I warm up with a set of presses, usually 50 X 10-12
Then I'll do a set of flyes just to get a good stretch in the pecs, again 50 X 10-12

After that I move to my working sets with the heaviest weight I know I can use. My gym's DBs only go up to #100 so that's what I use.

100 X whatever I can. I take this to the point of failure. That means, on the last rep, I can't make it up to the point of locking my elbows. (To the rest of you lunkheads: I know locking the elbows may or may not be a good idea but, that's a debate for another time. )

After that I'll usually use the 100s again and do exactly the same thing. Obviously I can't do the same number of reps but, I still take it to positive failure.

Finally I'll drop down to 90s and do it one more time, taking it to positive failure.

That's it. That's my DB work for chest. Then I'll move over and do this same routine on the flat bench except I only do one light "warm up" set just to get my body ready for the new movement.

(On a rare occasion when I'm feeling particularly strong I'll do another set of DB flyes with the 50's in between the DB presses and the flat bench work. That's just to hit those last few fibers that aren't already screaming.)

I only take my very last set of each exercise to failure. Once I make myself completely fail then I am usually done with that exercise movement.

This is an example of what works for me and I wait about a minute or a minute and a half between sets.

Bench set 1 x 10
Bench set 2 x 8
Bench set 3 x 6
Bench set 4 x failure (spotter needed for last rep or sometimes last 2 reps)

But its really different with each person. Experiment and see what works for you. But once I force my last rep to TOTAL failure there is no way I can lift again with that exact exercise. In the example I posted I would not be able to bench again after that failed set. Sometimes I even push my last 2 reps of that set to failure. I will usually say to my spotter in advance. "I want 4 reps no matter what" And thats what I shoot for even if the spotter has to spot my last couple reps. This works perfect for me.