Thread: My 4 day split workout

There's a lot of fluff?

What's your diet like? And, I mean specifics. Post a typical day of eating, then we'll talk training.

Fluff haha not sure what that means!? anyway you asked about diet.

Breakfast will be a protien/carb shake and porridge

lunch would usually be a couple of small chicken pieces and rice

then i would have another protein/carb drink after ive been the gym

dinner would be either fish/steak/chicken with pasta

usually have a chicken sandwich later if im still hungry, try never to be hungry

Does the leg day look okay to you or too much, my legs are like jelly when i walk out the gym, takes a good few days near on a week to recover haha?

Originally Posted by davegmb

Fluff haha not sure what that means!? anyway you asked about diet.

Breakfast will be a protien/carb shake and porridge

lunch would usually be a couple of small chicken pieces and rice

then i would have another protein/carb drink after ive been the gym

dinner would be either fish/steak/chicken with pasta

usually have a chicken sandwich later if im still hungry, try never to be hungry

Does the leg day look okay to you or too much, my legs are like jelly when i walk out the gym, takes a good few days near on a week to recover haha?

By fluff I meant too many random isolation lifts. The program lacks direction. What are your goals?

We need much more diet detail than that. Track your diet on fitday so you can give us your macros (ratio of protein, carbs, fat) and calories.

Originally Posted by Phineas

By fluff I meant too many random isolation lifts. The program lacks direction. What are your goals?

We need much more diet detail than that. Track your diet on fitday so you can give us your macros (ratio of protein, carbs, fat) and calories.

Goal is basically size, open to ideas. Ill find that diet tracker your on about and get on it, i eat alot though and always looking to eat something good for me with plenty of protein. From what i understand thats the only way to grow.
Didnt realise i had too many isolation moves, try and do as many compound ones as possible.

Thanks for the replies

Originally Posted by davegmb

Goal is basically size, open to ideas. Ill find that diet tracker your on about and get on it, i eat alot though and always looking to eat something good for me with plenty of protein. From what i understand thats the only way to grow.
Didnt realise i had too many isolation moves, try and do as many compound ones as possible.

Thanks for the replies

Protein is crucial to muscle recovery, yes -- but it is definitely not the only way to grow; there are many variables to muscle development.

As for the isolation work, if you want it that's fine. It won't hurt you. I just always point that when people post programs because I find most new or intermediate lifters misunderstand isolation work. A lot of people think every muscle needs to be trained directly because it's a muscle and how is it going to grow without being stimulated. But, the thing is the muscular system is designed as a system, not individual parts. Certain muscles like the biceps, posterior delts, traps (all fibres), etc, actually assist larger muscles in moving objects. So, while you CAN train the biceps directly with curls, you're not only training the body unnaturally but you're not training the most efficiently in terms of muscle development. Very few growth hormones are released when you "isolate" a small muscle. On the other hand, when you perform a squat you're training so many muscles simultaneously as well as full body stability and cardio efficiency that so many more growth hormones are released. This is why we push compound movements; they're significantly more productive.

Isolation is best reserved for targeting weak points. This can be from an esthetique perspective, like if you want your arms to be bigger then you can isolate whichever muscle(s) to put on additional mass. Or, it can be from a performance standpoint, like if you're biceps can't keep up with your lats on rows then you might isolate the biceps to strengthen them on your compound pulls. Say your bench lockout is weak, you might work on your triceps for a while to help with that particular part of the compound lift.

All that isolation work will just keep you in the gym longer and for fewer gains. Also, the fatigue from all the isolation will potentially intefere with your form on major compound lifts.

Originally Posted by davegmb

This is the 4 day split im currently using if anyone thinks they can improve on it let me know please, thanks. Once every month or so ill throw in a light week, where i drop the weight and do alot higher reps too to mix it up. I also do a short run on the tredmill (10-15mins) at the end of each session apart from leg day, i dont wont to do too much cardio as want to bulk up. Im using a myprotein.com workout drink, basically protein, carbs and creatine called hurricane similar to maximuscle cyclone.

Monday: Back and biceps
chins ups 3 sets to failure (going to failure frequently is highly taxing on your central nervous system (CNS))
Deadlift 3 x 6/8
lat pull down 3 x 10
seated row 3 x 10 exchange for bent-over BB rows
reverse flies 3 x 10
Standing barbell curls 3 x 10
Hammer curls 3 x 10

Tuesday: Chest and triceps
bench press 3 x 8
incline bench press 3 x 8
decline bench press 3 x 8
dumbell flys or cable flys 3 x 10
Dips 3 sets to failure
Tricep push downs downs 3 x 10
Overhead rope extensions or skull crushers 3 x 10

Wednesday: Rest

Thursday: Legs
Squats 5 x 8
Romanian deadlifts 3 x 10
Front squat 3 x 8
Hamstring curls 3 x 10
Leg press 3 x 8
Standing calf raises 3 x 15
Seated calf raises 3 x 15
(barbell lunges sometimes instead of one of above too)

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Shoulders and Abs
Hang clean and press 3 x 8/10
Neutral grip seated shoulder press 3 x 10
Lateral raises 3 x 10
Shoulder shrugs 3 x 10
Standing or kneeling cable crunches 3 x 10
Knee raises 3 x 15
Plank
Crunches with added weight 3 x 10
Side crunches 3 x 10

Be interested to hear what you think and anyway i could improve

Thank you

Dave

Okay, so you could take the bolded lifts and do a 3-day push/pull split, with a 4th day if you want for accessory/isolation work.

*perform instinct calf training: do whatever you feel like, whenever, for however long

Mon: PUSH

-back squats
-front squats
-bench press
-hang clean and press

Wed: Pull

-deadlifts
-romanian deadlifts
-BB bent-over rows
-chinups

Fri: REPEAT PUSH

*ACCESSORY/ISOLATION DAY???

*then alternate the next week...focus on intensity, get in and out of the gym in a decent time, don't kill your muscles each session, and then eat a load of food..all whole foods..don't rely too much on protein powders..you probably shouldn't do more than 2 scoops a day...you can, but it's better to get your diet from real food

Originally Posted by Phineas

Protein is crucial to muscle recovery, yes -- but it is definitely not the only way to grow; there are many variables to muscle development.

As for the isolation work, if you want it that's fine. It won't hurt you. I just always point that when people post programs because I find most new or intermediate lifters misunderstand isolation work. A lot of people think every muscle needs to be trained directly because it's a muscle and how is it going to grow without being stimulated. But, the thing is the muscular system is designed as a system, not individual parts. Certain muscles like the biceps, posterior delts, traps (all fibres), etc, actually assist larger muscles in moving objects. So, while you CAN train the biceps directly with curls, you're not only training the body unnaturally but you're not training the most efficiently in terms of muscle development. Very few growth hormones are released when you "isolate" a small muscle. On the other hand, when you perform a squat you're training so many muscles simultaneously as well as full body stability and cardio efficiency that so many more growth hormones are released. This is why we push compound movements; they're significantly more productive.

Isolation is best reserved for targeting weak points. This can be from an esthetique perspective, like if you want your arms to be bigger then you can isolate whichever muscle(s) to put on additional mass. Or, it can be from a performance standpoint, like if you're biceps can't keep up with your lats on rows then you might isolate the biceps to strengthen them on your compound pulls. Say your bench lockout is weak, you might work on your triceps for a while to help with that particular part of the compound lift.

All that isolation work will just keep you in the gym longer and for fewer gains. Also, the fatigue from all the isolation will potentially intefere with your form on major compound lifts.

Beat me to it! But I probably would not have gone into it that extensively. Good post.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Okay, so you could take the bolded lifts and do a 3-day push/pull split, with a 4th day if you want for accessory/isolation work.

*perform instinct calf training: do whatever you feel like, whenever, for however long

Mon: PUSH

-back squats
-front squats
-bench press
-hang clean and press

Wed: Pull

-deadlifts
-romanian deadlifts
-BB bent-over rows
-chinups

Fri: REPEAT PUSH

*ACCESSORY/ISOLATION DAY???

*then alternate the next week...focus on intensity, get in and out of the gym in a decent time, don't kill your muscles each session, and then eat a load of food..all whole foods..don't rely too much on protein powders..you probably shouldn't do more than 2 scoops a day...you can, but it's better to get your diet from real food

Fantastic, really appreciate you taking the time for such a detailed post. Ill get on the new workout this week, thanks again.

I still cant friggin rep Phineas.

Originally Posted by davegmb

Goal is basically size, open to ideas. Ill find that diet tracker your on about and get on it, i eat alot though and always looking to eat something good for me with plenty of protein. From what i understand thats the only way to grow.
Didnt realise i had too many isolation moves, try and do as many compound ones as possible.

Thanks for the replies

If you want size put a good routine together with the following exercises only and I promise you, you will get huge: squats, deadlifts, bench press, dips, barbell rows, chin-ups, shoulder press. As above mentioned, isolation will not help you with your goal to get big. Here is something for thought: When I was younger (producing more test also probably to my benefit) I really wanted big arms so I did tons of isolation exercises for biceps and triceps. Result? About 1/4 inch gain in both arms over 8 months. When I put together a program with only the exercises I gave you above (didn't do a single bicep curl), my arms went up by nearly an inch in two months. These kind of exercises done with moderate to heavy weight will make you big... that coupled with a good diet plan.

Originally Posted by jmorrison

I still cant friggin rep Phineas.

LOL same here. I guess you really have to spread reputation around big time.

Originally Posted by CaptainNapalm

If you want size put a good routine together with the following exercises only and I promise you, you will get huge: squats, deadlifts, bench press, dips, barbell rows, chin-ups, shoulder press. As above mentioned, isolation will not help you with your goal to get big. Here is something for thought: When I was younger (producing more test also probably to my benefit) I really wanted big arms so I did tons of isolation exercises for biceps and triceps. Result? About 1/4 inch gain in both arms over 8 months. When I put together a program with only the exercises I gave you above (didn't do a single bicep curl), my arms went up by nearly an inch in two months. These kind of exercises done with moderate to heavy weight will make you big... that coupled with a good diet plan.

Same thing happened to me. I cut out isolation last October and went purely compound with push/pull and gained about an inch and a half on my arms since then. Funny how it works that way.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Same thing happened to me. I cut out isolation last October and went purely compound with push/pull and gained about an inch and a half on my arms since then. Funny how it works that way.

Indeed. Human bodies respond best to challanges involving multiple muscle groups and heavy resistance. There is no need for a bicep/tricep to grow much when the body knows it has to do repetative isolated contractions with similar weight as last time. It certainly has incentive to grow though when it knows it will be shaking all over from trying to balance a heavy load over its back while squatting.

Yeah, im starting this new routine today. My mate who goes with me took some convincing but said hes going to give it a go (the no curls stuff really messed with his brain lol). As you can see i have quite a heavy leg day and ive been seeing really good gain with this, should this workout still hit my legs just as well despite doing less?

Originally Posted by davegmb

Yeah, im starting this new routine today. My mate who goes with me took some convincing but said hes going to give it a go (the no curls stuff really messed with his brain lol). As you can see i have quite a heavy leg day and ive been seeing really good gain with this, should this workout still hit my legs just as well despite doing less?

Ironically, in this sport less is more. The increased rest time will leave your muscles fresher for your workouts. Also, this will allow for more glycogen to restore in your muscles, giving you more energy for your workouts. I know it seems like you should be in the gym all the time. I wish I could workout for 7 hours a day. That would be sweet. But, with shorter training sessions the quality is so much higher, and you're mentally fresher, too. You'll gain like never before.

Focus on intensity and a full range of motion on every lift. If you're not squatting to parallel then learn to.

Also, are you periodizing your training? This is another very important training variable.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Ironically, in this sport less is more. The increased rest time will leave your muscles fresher for your workouts. Also, this will allow for more glycogen to restore in your muscles, giving you more energy for your workouts. I know it seems like you should be in the gym all the time. I wish I could workout for 7 hours a day. That would be sweet. But, with shorter training sessions the quality is so much higher, and you're mentally fresher, too. You'll gain like never before.

Focus on intensity and a full range of motion on every lift. If you're not squatting to parallel then learn to.

Also, are you periodizing your training? This is another very important training variable.

Yes great points and to add: Rest is more important than training itself. You will actually get bigger by severely undertraining rather than overtraining. A great point is brought up about periodization. If you want to continue to progress, change your workouts every 6-12 weeks (8 weeks being optimal for most routines). There are many great articles on periodization on this website and GAZ has some very cool workouts on his website you can implement for a change once it's time to change your routine up: getlifting.info

Originally Posted by CaptainNapalm

Yes great points and to add: Rest is more important than training itself. You will actually get bigger by severely undertraining rather than overtraining. A great point is brought up about periodization. If you want to continue to progress, change your workouts every 6-12 weeks (8 weeks being optimal for most routines). There are many great articles on periodization on this website and GAZ has some very cool workouts on his website you can implement for a change once it's time to change your routine up: getlifting.info

Napalm, I tried to rep you but it wants me to spread some more around! This is the big flaw of the rep system!

Can someone rep napalm?

Originally Posted by CaptainNapalm

Yes great points and to add: Rest is more important than training itself. You will actually get bigger by severely undertraining rather than overtraining. A great point is brought up about periodization. If you want to continue to progress, change your workouts every 6-12 weeks (8 weeks being optimal for most routines). There are many great articles on periodization on this website and GAZ has some very cool workouts on his website you can implement for a change once it's time to change your routine up: getlifting.info

I don't agree that there is a set time fram in which you should change your routine. It should be based on a point at which further development (whatever the goal may be) ceases and/or boardem/lack of motivation of current routine and/or change in goals, etc. In other words, "dont fix what aint broke".

Originally Posted by Phineas

Ironically, in this sport less is more. The increased rest time will leave your muscles fresher for your workouts. Also, this will allow for more glycogen to restore in your muscles, giving you more energy for your workouts. I know it seems like you should be in the gym all the time. I wish I could workout for 7 hours a day. That would be sweet. But, with shorter training sessions the quality is so much higher, and you're mentally fresher, too. You'll gain like never before.

Focus on intensity and a full range of motion on every lift. If you're not squatting to parallel then learn to.

Also, are you periodizing your training? This is another very important training variable.

Yeah, im going to need to read up this periodizing business. I just tend to mix it up by throwing in different excersises here and there, and then once a month i have a light week where i do alot higher reps.
My squats fine, my friend wont count the rep if i dont get down far enough so ive learnt the hard way.

Thanks for the input

Originally Posted by rockhardly

I don't agree that there is a set time fram in which you should change your routine. It should be based on a point at which further development (whatever the goal may be) ceases and/or boardem/lack of motivation of current routine and/or change in goals, etc. In other words, "dont fix what aint broke".

I agree and disagree.

Yes, it's a bit foolish to be so rigid as to set a universal time line. So programs you might want to follow only a month while others may last 3 months.

On the other hand, plateaus don't manifest overnight. Progress will slow down gradually, and in that time you'll still make gains but increasinly fewer. Even if something appears to still be working who's to say it couldn't be working better? And, even if it IS working wonders should you keep doing it at the risk of getting too comfortable mentally? I think forcing yourself to change can be good for not only preventing adaptation before it even begins but keeping you on your toes.

Originally Posted by Phineas

I agree and disagree.

Yes, it's a bit foolish to be so rigid as to set a universal time line. So programs you might want to follow only a month while others may last 3 months.

On the other hand, plateaus don't manifest overnight. Progress will slow down gradually, and in that time you'll still make gains but increasinly fewer. Even if something appears to still be working who's to say it couldn't be working better? And, even if it IS working wonders should you keep doing it at the risk of getting too comfortable mentally? I think forcing yourself to change can be good for not only preventing adaptation before it even begins but keeping you on your toes.

I agree and disagee

The first bold part I completely agree with. This is how I generally know when it's time to change. You could continue to make small gains on the same routine for a very long time. On the other hand if you switched to another routine you'll have the good initial gains again (usually in the first few months) and it will then tapper off as well. I don't think of adaption as something bad, just that the majority of adaption happens early in a routine (first few months). That said, some routines I will place a certain time period, but this is due to the taxing nature of that routine.

The second bolded part I completely disagree with. If your current routine is working wonders then I wouldn't change it. Muscle/strength isn't easy to get and if some routine is producing fantastic results for you then you're lucky, and should wait untill progress slows to switch.

phineas/pushpull,

Agree.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

I don't agree that there is a set time fram in which you should change your routine. It should be based on a point at which further development (whatever the goal may be) ceases and/or boardem/lack of motivation of current routine and/or change in goals, etc. In other words, "dont fix what aint broke".

This is true and I agree with you but sometimes it is difficult to recognize when actual progress stops particularly concerning a beginner who never really changed workouts. Many things happen to determine when a program requires revision or complete change in order to continue progressing, ex. you're not making strength gains, size gains (in particular areas or all areas) or other improvements you set forth as goals for yourself. The reason I suggested a timeframe is because provided the program selection is good anyone can benefit from change and it gives a beginner valuable experience in periodizing and new exercises/rep ranges/splits/etc.

I'll tell you how I'm looking at it from a practical example. Assume Joe is new to weight lifting and steps in the gym with primary goal to improve muscle mass and secondary goal to improve strength. He puts together a good program and diet plan but 10 weeks down the line he notices a plateau in mass gain while his strength continues to increase. He really wants to get bigger so he figures that since he's getting stronger he must have hit a temporary plateau and continues with his current program (size will come). It would be too bad for him to realize another 8 weeks later that he could have done the "super squat" or some other form of mass building program for 6 weeks for a change and ended up bigger and stronger as a result not to mention more experienced. I've personally fallen for this trap many times when I started and I always regretted not changing workouts soon enough. I also remember when I was new to lifting it was very difficult for me to comprehend why change is so important in seeing long-term results. "Why change something that works?" was my frame of mind for a very long time and I see this attitude with so many people these days that I wish someone was around to slap me in the face and tell me to change things up every 8-12 weeks.

I will ramble no more lol but in sum I'd like to say I agree with you but giving advice based on my own experiences and what I wish I heard when I was new to this.

More or less what phineas said in his first post (that took up most of the text i can read in a single sitting lol) except i would substitute front squats for lunges and a few tweaks here and there

Originally Posted by T_man

More or less what phineas said in his first post (that took up most of the text i can read in a single sitting lol) except i would substitute front squats for lunges and a few tweaks here and there

I do throw in barbell lunges quite a bit to mix it up, they are a real killer. What tweaks?

Originally Posted by davegmb

I do throw in barbell lunges quite a bit to mix it up, they are a real killer. What tweaks?

Maybe substitute the second of each leg plane of motion for a unilateral movement. Lunges are good for push, but what's even better IMO are dumbbell bulgarian split squats. Sort of like a cross between a lunge and squat.

Romanians could be easily changed to unilateral DB Romanians.

The added benefit is this will give you time out of the cage. Competing for it can become really frustrating.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Maybe substitute the second of each leg plane of motion for a unilateral movement. Lunges are good for push, but what's even better IMO are dumbbell bulgarian split squats. Sort of like a cross between a lunge and squat.

Romanians could be easily changed to unilateral DB Romanians.

The added benefit is this will give you time out of the cage. Competing for it can become really frustrating.

Okay thanks, ive tried bulgarian split squats before as used to do them before i started doing regular squats so i know how much they burn.
Unilateral romanian DB's? never heard of them, will have to youtube it.
I swapped deadlifts today (just for a change) for the rack pulls and im a big fan of that excersise already, first time ive tried it and could stack the weight on, but know its only a change up and should stick with deads, but great excersise.

Tried to hit your rep Phineas, but wouldnt let me mate sorry, thanks anyway