Thread: Pull ups for lat development

pullups are very good for the width if you do them with a wide grip, but if you cant do them at least 4 and try hard to get the 5,6,7th rep you might try wide grip pulldowns to start. i cant do to many but i can do alot of weight with the pulldowns wide grip though. but my back is wide enough i need to work on my inner back.

No disrespect to unclem, but please avoid gripping wider than shoulder-width. Rather than placing more stress on the lat, gripping wide takes some of the stress OFF the lat and places it on the rotator cuff.

Over, under, neutral grips are all good. Just mind that width. Close grip works a charm, you'll see this for yourself.

To the OP, dumbbell rows can and do build one hell of a wide back! Why would you think the pump would matter more here - because of the relative proportion of slow twitch muscle in the lats?

^^^^no worries i dont go wider than shoulder width but its something i should of said thnx built, you know your shit imho.

Ah, good to know unclem. Glad you weren't offended.

I've done a ton of wide grip pull-ups as well as regular pull-ups and could never notice any difference in gains between the two. Since there is more stress placed on the rotator cuff when doing wide grip pull-ups, it logically follows that the risk of injury to your rotator cuff will be increased. Now I did wide grips pull ups for years and never had any injuries to my rotator cuff. Maybe the chance of injury to your rotator cuff is small, but where's the risk/reward trade-off for doing the exercise? So even if the chance of injury is really small, since there's no added benefit over a regular(shoulder-width) pull up it isn't logical to do them. As far as the pump goes. Pump doesn't matter, only results matter. Pull ups are a proven effective exercise that yield fantastic results.

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

So even if the chance of injury is really small, since there's no added benefit over a regular(shoulder-width) pull up it isn't logical to do them.

My thoughts exactly.

Originally Posted by Built

Ah, good to know unclem. Glad you weren't offended.

just because i have been training along time i never get offended at learning things that people that know what there talking about, such as you with dieting ect, i love to learn if i dont know please inform me i cant correct something if iam doing it wrong. i learn something new everyday built.

Originally Posted by b56

Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip pull ups are the best lat developer? Is it the stretch at the bottom? Is it the stress at the top? Is it something else/

I must be doing them wrong because my lats have always seemed to respond better to dumbbell rows and not respond to pull ups.

For that matter, I can't understand how heavy rows do more for the lats than moderate weight rows. It would seems it me that the pump is more important for this muscle.

Rows and pullups are both excellent for lat development -- as well as other muscles!

Maybe your lack of growth from pullups is a form issue. Rows are much easier to perform, especially any row where your spine isn't supporting the weight, as in dumbbell bench rows. With pullups, not only are you pulling bodyweight, which is very difficult, but because you're hanging you have a lot more balancing to do and can travel in many planes without proper pulling. This is why so many people swing with their hips and use momentum. You don't necessairly have to go as slow as a slug to perform a proper pullup, but you need to stabalize your torso and focus on your contracting muscles. Focus is crucial on pullups; it will make them much smoother.

Once I started doing weighted pullups, I found I had a harder time stabalizing on bodyweight pullups. Having extra weight pull you down makes it more comfortable to pull in the opposite direction.

Thanks for all the input. But you guys are stating the obvious. You're not answering the question. We all know the pull up is superior. What is it about that the pull up that makes it superior? The best I can come up with is the stretch at the bottom.

Originally Posted by b56

Thanks for all the input. But you guys are stating the obvious. You're not answering the question. We all know the pull up is superior. What is it about that the pull up that makes it superior? The best I can come up with is the stretch at the bottom.

They're not necessarily superior, they're just another tool in the toolbox. You can build a good sized back on rows and lat pulldowns too.

The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior.

When I am done with pull-ups, I need a break, when I am done with pull-downs I need another excercise.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior.

When I am done with pull-ups, I need a break, when I am done with pull-downs I need another excercise.

Agreed. With pullups, the extra stimulation my core gets from either slightly holding my legs up or simply trying to keep them from swinging really wipes me out. You don't get that mid and lower body tension as much when sitting on a bench doing pulldowns. I think this is what makes them superior to pulldowns.

Originally Posted by b56

Thanks for all the input. But you guys are stating the obvious. You're not answering the question. We all know the pull up is superior. What is it about that the pull up that makes it superior? The best I can come up with is the stretch at the bottom.

That's like asking what makes bud light taste so good.. Wtf does it matter! Just do it and be happy you have it as such a great option to grow.

Originally Posted by ceazur

.. Wtf does it matter!

^^^^ Well said.

rockhardly

great post!!!!

your quote really says it all. "The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior".

thats why if you have the space to do kipping pullups do them..those will really tax you..

if you google regular pullups vs kiping, you'll find that , like your post says, work more muscles. if i can find the link, i'll post it here.

its a great link by great coaches saying why the kipping pullup is so good showing all the benifits from doing these..it helps your dead hangs.

do them both.. dead hangs and kipping pullups.

just wish i had a place to do them.

Originally Posted by stepaukas

rockhardly

great post!!!!

your quote really says it all. "The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior".

thats why if you have the space to do kipping pullups do them..those will really tax you..

if you google regular pullups vs kiping, you'll find that , like your post says, work more muscles. if i can find the link, i'll post it here.

its a great link by great coaches saying why the kipping pullup is so good showing all the benifits from doing these..it helps your dead hangs.

do them both.. dead hangs and kipping pullups.

just wish i had a place to do them.

HEY BUDDY!!! SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!! Nice weather here, how about over there?

Just wondering, why do you keep pushing kipping pullups on this board? I mean, they DO look like a lot of fun. Kind of like a pissed off fish caught out of the water. They should call them pissed-off-fish-pullups, actually.

Anyway, just wondering, because you usually suggest them in the context of strength and muscle development, and kipp'ers are more of plyometric, since you're using rapid muscular contraction and momentum to complete the reps. AAAANNNDDD...as I'm sure most of us know, plyometrics are intended for neurological adaptation for speed, power, agility..more for sports than it is for bodybuilding, I guess is the general idea to take away. Well, you would know, you've been around many world-class athletes, right? I don't know about the rest of the guys here but I definitely value world-class training advice -- ESPECIALLY when it's free on an internet forum.

However, thinking back I seem to recall that the original poster was looking not for speed, power, and agility but lat development....

hmmm..

hmmmmmmmm...

Originally Posted by b56

Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip pull ups are the best lat developer?

Mmmm, yup. Yaa he's looking for strength and muscle.

I mean, sure, kipping pullups may require no legitimate body-pulling strength, full-body control, or understanding of the mechanics of upper-body pulling....pretty much a fancy term for cheating on pullups...but damnit they look cool! And, damnit you can do more of them!

Excuse me, I need to adjust my halo.

Originally Posted by Phineas

I mean, sure, kipping pullups may require no legitimate body-pulling strength, full-body control, or understanding of the mechanics of upper-body pulling....pretty much a fancy term for cheating on pullups...but damnit they look cool! And, damnit you can do more of them!

I agree and disagree with this.
I agree kipping pull ups is a fancy term for cheating on your pull-ups.
I disagree that they look cool.

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

I agree and disagree with this.
I agree kipping pull ups is a fancy term for cheating on your pull-ups.
I disagree that they look cool.

For a second you had me worried there!

Maybe kipping can be a new term for cheating on any lift?

Joe: "Oh man Jim squatted 300 for 5 reps?"

Bill: "Yaa, but dude he was totally kipping on the last 2 reps"

Originally Posted by Phineas

HEY BUDDY!!! SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!! Nice weather here, how about over there?

Just wondering, why do you keep pushing kipping pullups on this board? I mean, they DO look like a lot of fun. Kind of like a pissed off fish caught out of the water. They should call them pissed-off-fish-pullups, actually.

Anyway, just wondering, because you usually suggest them in the context of strength and muscle development, and kipp'ers are more of plyometric, since you're using rapid muscular contraction and momentum to complete the reps. AAAANNNDDD...as I'm sure most of us know, plyometrics are intended for neurological adaptation for speed, power, agility..more for sports than it is for bodybuilding, I guess is the general idea to take away. Well, you would know, you've been around many world-class athletes, right? I don't know about the rest of the guys here but I definitely value world-class training advice -- ESPECIALLY when it's free on an internet forum.

However, thinking back I seem to recall that the original poster was looking not for speed, power, and agility but lat development....

hmmm..

hmmmmmmmm...




Mmmm, yup. Yaa he's looking for strength and muscle.

I mean, sure, kipping pullups may require no legitimate body-pulling strength, full-body control, or understanding of the mechanics of upper-body pulling....pretty much a fancy term for cheating on pullups...but damnit they look cool! And, damnit you can do more of them!

Excuse me, I need to adjust my halo.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Phineas again.

Originally Posted by Phineas

For a second you had me worried there!

Maybe kipping can be a new term for cheating on any lift?

Joe: "Oh man Jim squatted 300 for 5 reps?"

Bill: "Yaa, but dude he was totally kipping on the last 2 reps"

Oh man! Phineas, that's pure gold!
I actually was kipping on my 3rd set of Bent rows.. I was completely wasted. I would never have gotten through them if I didn't kip them!

Originally Posted by b56

Can someone with knowledge of anatomy explain why wide grip pull ups are the best lat developer? Is it the stretch at the bottom? Is it the stress at the top? Is it something else/

I must be doing them wrong because my lats have always seemed to respond better to dumbbell rows and not respond to pull ups.

For that matter, I can't understand how heavy rows do more for the lats than moderate weight rows. It would seems it me that the pump is more important for this muscle.

Wide-grip pull ups are ineffective. Anything wider than shoulder width actually puts less and less stress on the lats. Closer grip pull-downs/pull-ups are most effective. And you were wondering why heavy rows always bring you the best results. That's because your able to use very heavy weights. The more weight an exercise allows you to use the better the exercise.

Originally Posted by ceazur

That's like asking what makes bud light taste so good.. Wtf does it matter! Just do it and be happy you have it as such a great option to grow.

lol

Originally Posted by rockhardly

The amount of muscles involved and the physical excertion required makes them superior.

When I am done with pull-ups, I need a break, when I am done with pull-downs I need another excercise.

You need another exercise because your not giving it 100%. It doesen't matter what exercise your doing if you give it all you got you will feel sick and want to sit down and take a break.

This fucker ramboris is totally kipping spam.

Originally Posted by Phineas

For a second you had me worried there!

Maybe kipping can be a new term for cheating on any lift?

Joe: "Oh man Jim squatted 300 for 5 reps?"

Bill: "Yaa, but dude he was totally kipping on the last 2 reps"

I was about to say the same thing! I would never tell anyone to do kipping anything! Why not do some kipping squats? Kipping bench?

Of course this is heavily used in Crossfit. We all know what Crossfit conversations turn into around here.

"continued intensity" or the idea thereof varies with the goal. If your goal is growth then this is not necessary. A proper plan with decent loading and adequate intakes will succeed with less risk.

If your goal is cutting then hell, youre just spinning wheels with too much intensity. A minute of pullups on 1500 calories....?? Not necessary.

Again, the latest fad, like kettlebells...with so many people not really knowing what they are even trying to accomplish.

And yea, kill the wide grip pullups.

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

This fucker ramboris is totally kipping spam.

Don't worry we're getting ready to put a stop to that shit! Plus he just joined, and you see he wants you to go to his forum which he has in his status. Shit for what, its obvious you don't know what you're talking about!

Originally Posted by ramboris

you need another exercise because your not giving it 100%. It doesen't matter what exercise your doing if you give it all you got you will feel sick and want to sit down and take a break.

suck it bitch!!!

Originally Posted by ramboris

You need another exercise because your not giving it 100%. It doesen't matter what exercise your doing if you give it all you got you will feel sick and want to sit down and take a break.

Are you serious? This is such flawed advice it's not even funny.

Just because you may push your body through high-intensity lifting, as in sub-maximal loads, doesn't mean you have to find yourself nearly unconscious or wanting to puke. In fact, feeling sick would be more an indication of overtraining, if anything. I've heard of people feeling sick on 20-rep squat, but that's a unique exception -- as it's intended to be a form of structured overtraining (in a sense).

On maybe three occassions I felt like puking, and none of those instances were from single heavy sets but fast-paced endurance sessions; it was more from the lactic buildup and heavy lung work than muscular fatigue.